Perma Salt / Permasalt Ionizer system w/ Activate, Preparate, Klairavate Info!

[eklipse38]

PoolDoc note:
I'm extending the information originally in this thread, to create a general Permasalt FAQ.

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I just had my first agp pool installed this weekend it is a 27'x 54" and it uses the perma salt system and i'm looking for some more info on the system. Thanks


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[PoolDoc]

It is a fairly typical standard copper / silver ionizer system sold in conjunction with with some expensive blended chemicals, under the names, Activate, Klairivate, Preparate, and Winterate. It seems to be sold more by above-ground dealers, like "Family Leisure" on their Permasalt page (https://www.familyleisure.com/Discount-Pool-Supplies/Perma-Salt) rather than by in-ground builders or dealers.

This 'system' not only adds copper and silver to your pool, like a standard ionizer, it ALSO requires you to add an expensive salt mixture. They state that the Permasalt system "does not convert salt into chlorine" which left me wondering, why add the salt in the first place, if you're not going to use it?

The answer, it turns out, is found in their claim that the salt improves copper/silver ionization.

Just to be clear: the Permasalt system is NOT a saltwater chlorination system (SWCG), though it DOES use chlorine in low doses.

The "a specially blended family of ancillary products" they want to sell you include:

Preparate - "a Sodium based Salt that is enhanced with not only Borates, but also metal removers and cyanuric acid". Thus: table salt
borax
chlorine stabilizer
metal mystery products (possibly alum or aluminum sulfate)

Activate - "combines both, DiChlor and Oxone". Thus dichlor (sodium dichloroisocyanurate)
Oxone (Dupont's Oxone non-sanitizing potassium monopersulfate)

Klairate -"a natural enzyme water clarifier". Thus: an unidentified mystery product. It may have some value; it may be useless but harmless; or it may mess up your pool.

[PoolDoc]

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Pro It's a working copper silver ionizer system. These CAN control algae effectively.
Like true salt chlorine systems (SWCG), ionizers provide CONTINUOUS water treatment, without constantly adding chemicals (unless your pool leaks a lot)
The Permasalt system is marketed to above-ground LINER pool owners; liners are less likely to have stains than concrete.
There are some positive reports on the Permasalt system
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Con
There is NOTHING "natural" or "holistic" about Cu/Ag alloy bars, potassium monopersulfate, sodium dichloroisocyanurate, cyanuric acid or OTHER essential components of the Permasalt system.
Ionizer systems are effective against algae, but they are NOT effective sanitizer systems. This may not be a problem for families, since 'germs' are already shared among family members, but it can be a problem if non-family members use the pool.
Copper silver systems stain sometimes stain pools and turn swimmer hair green.
Pricing for the Preparate, Activate, etc is VERY high compared to the basic chemicals
The positive reviews for the Permasalt may be paid-for. I wasn't able to find positive reviews for Permasalt on any swimming pool forum (but I only spent a few minutes searching, so their may be some.)


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[Madison0226]

Is there an alternative to Perma Salt Activate? We used chlorinated shock last year, as a last resort, but we weren't too sure that this was ok. Note: we are not thrilled with the system.

[PoolDoc]

The PermaSalt system is something we don't recommend; it's a low end copper ionizer system -- not that we recommend high-end copper systems -- and in my opinion, benefits the pool store more than the pool owner.

But . . .

"Activate" is a blend of dichlor (a common chlorinating chemical, available inexpensively at Sams Club) and Oxone (potassium monopersulfate) which we recommend NEVER using.

If you really want to replace "Activate", instead of getting rid of the PermaSalt system, you can buy both diclor and monopersulfate separately. I'll put links to both, below.


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Dichlor "sodium dichloroisocyanurate":

Sams granular dichlor 50lbs (http://www.samsclub.com/prod4340004.ip) @ Sams Club => ~$2.20/lb (May 2018 in Chattanooga)
Sams dichlor bagged shock 24lbs (https://www.samsclub.com/sams/prod14250499.ip) @ Sams Club => ~$2.50/lb (May 2018 in Chattanooga)

Kem-Tek dichlor 22 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZA/poolbooks) @ Amazon => ~$3.50/lb (May 2014)
Kem-Tek dichlor 12 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZ0/poolbooks) @ Amazon => ~$4.10/lb (May 2014)
Kem-Tek dichlor 5 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0015UIOWK/poolbooks) @ Amazon => ~$5.00/lb (May 2014)
Kem-Tek dichlor 2 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI40/poolbooks) @ Amazon => ~$9.00/lb (May 2014)


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Potassium monopersulfate, 43%


Doheny's Chlorine Free Oxidizing Shock - 12 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0051BJAN6/poolbooks/)
Rx Clear 43% Potassium Monopersulfate - 12 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00OBQ25W0/poolbooks/)

(Note: potassium monopersulfate (MPS) is rather acidic, and is usually blended with soda ash to neutralize the acidity and cut the manufacturer's cost.)

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[PoolDoc]

Asked by Thomps342 in Jul 2013: Permasalt System Reviews?

Any thoughts on this chlorine free system? Just purchased as part of the pool package and need some feedback.

Yep, see the "pros and cons" above.


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Asked by Judypl in May 2015: Am I stuck with this Perma Salt system?

My husband and I recently purchased a Perma Salt system and apparently we did not ask the right questions. We had assumed a salt system is a salt system. It wasn't until after the purchase when I was researching online how to clear cloudy water and algae with this system that I learned that is did NOT produce chlorine.
With that being said:
1. How would I convert to using just chlorine? Just unplug the Perma Salt system and add chlorine tablets/liquid?
2. Or how much would an entire new "real" salt system cost. This is for an above ground pool.


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Asked by "Shellmcp33" in Apr 2016: "Just bought our first pool and it came with the perma salt system. Pool is being installed Friday and I'm afraid to use the Perma salt / Permasalt system. Should I stick with chlorine?"

You're asking US? Of course, stick with chlorine!

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[PoolDoc]

A fairly straight forward and seemingly accurate guide to using the Permasalt system: http://aurorapoolsknoxville.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/AllAboutPermaSalt.pdf

Replacement copper/silver bars on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-Electrodes-Compatible-With-Perma-Salt-Chamber-Permasalt/272984468444?hash=item3f8f246bdc:g:1qAAAMXQKQhRHuj S

965

[PoolDoc]

-- from the original 2012 post --
It seems to be an Asian made copper / silver ionizer system, often sold by above ground dealers like "Family Leisure" on their Permasalt page (https://www.familyleisure.com/Discount-Pool-Supplies/Perma-Salt).

Their 'system' not only adds copper and silver to your pool, like a standard ionizer, it ALSO requires you to add an expensive salt mixture. They state that the Permasalt system "does not convert salt into chlorine" which leaves me wondering, why add the salt in the first place, if you're not going to use it?

Just to be clear: the Permasalt system is NOT a saltwater chlorination system (SWCG), though it DOES use chlorine in low doses. Their website, at http://www.permasalt.com/ has some brief manuals, here: http://www.permasalt.com/Downloads.html . However, much of the information I have is from the 2013 version of their pages, which included a lot more information, than the current ones.

They write that "The system chamber disperses natural minerals into the water including copper and silver, that serve as natural algaecides.". In other words, it's a copper / silver ionizer system.

They have "a specially blended family of ancillary products" they want to sell you:
Preparate - "a Sodium based Salt that is enhanced with not only Borates, but also metal removers and cyanuric acid" or in other words, table salt with borax, stabilizer and some metal mystery products (possibly alum or aluminum sulfate) added.


Activate - "combines both, DiChlor and Oxone" or in other words, diluted dichlor plus a bit of Dupont's Oxone non-sanitizing potassium monopersulfate product.


Klairate -"a natural enzyme water clarifier" or in other words, an unidentified mystery product. It may have some value; it may be useless but harmless; or it may mess up your pool. We don't know.
-- Quotes mostly from this page: http://www.permasalt.com/Services.html (archived) --

The web domain (www.permasalt.com) was registered anonymously, and it's NEVER a good sign when company tries to hide from you! It should give you an idea how things will go if you need some customer service.

Their physical address is listed as 1004 Jaycox Rd, Avon OH . . . but there's no PermaSalt there. Here's the Google Map: http://goo.gl/maps/fi5T.

It looks like "Main Access" is the home of the Permasalt sales office. It looks pretty small to be a shipping location, so I'm guess that that location address may be "At the docks", somewhere freighters from Asia can land.

Doing a reverse look up for the 888 number or the street address, you find a number of different businesses:
Main Access -- www.gomainaccess.com
1004 Jaycox Rd.
Avon, OH 44011, USA
Phone: (888) 333-1134

http://www.powerionizer.com/Contact_Us.html

Recreational Products - Above Ground Pools
2968 Nationwide Pkwy.
Brunswick, OH 44212 USA
Toll Free: (888) 333-1134
Phone: (330) 220-8881

American Heritage Billiards LLC
630 Mondial Pkwy Streetsboro, OH 44241-5211
(330) 626-3710 (888) 333-1134

Main Access
Category: IT Services & Computer Repair
1004 Jaycox Rd
Avon, OH 44011
(440) 937-4870

I think I'm going to move this to the ionizer section, rather than the SWCG section, since the product claims to act like an ionizer, not a SWCG.

[PoolDoc]

Just a bit of an update . . .

You should set your BS detector to ALARM any time encounter a description like this "uses a natural synergy for a holistic approach to water maintenance". I've seen this sort of phrasing many times over my 25+ years in the pool industry, and that sort of phrasing always seems to be describe products that are very good for the people selling them, and very bad for the people buying them.

So . . . when you see this quote "The Perma Salt Pool Sanitation System uses a natural holistic approach to water maintenance and clarity, which is different than most methods of water sanitation.", your BS detector should immediately enter its ALARM state.

Actually, ANY of these words should lead put your BS detector into a WARNING state:

holistic
mineral
synergy
completely new
natural (unless it's describing pools like these => http://pool9.net/npool/
nature's way or nature's method (again, unless used with respect to 'npools')
revolutionary
completely new
unprecedented
chlorine-free

The Permasalt system literature doesn't use all these, but it uses many of them.

In fact, it is apparently just a run-of-the-mill copper system using a little chlorine and monopersulfate to keep the water from becoming totally septic, and some salt to make the pool FEEL like a salt pool.

It appears that somebody associated with the Permasalt system has been getting people (hired shills maybe?) to post positive but bogus reviews on various pool forums. So, before you trust such a review, check to see that the poster is in good standing on that forum, AND that they posted something besides the PermaSalt review. In my experience here, posters who register and ONLY post positive reviews about some product are never legitimate.

Also you don't have to have an SWCG (salt water chlorine generator) to add salt to your pool. Just keep in mind that salt increases corrosion no matter why you put it into the pool.