Managing humidity from an indoor pool

[karynfab]

Hi,

I'm getting an endless pool installed and was wondering if anybody had info about dehumidiers?

It will be in an enclosed garage with insulation and taking up most of the 200 square feet with only 2 feet to walk around. There is no windows and I am concerned a simple dehumidier might not be enough. Thanks!

[PoolDoc]

It will be in an enclosed garage with insulation and taking up most of the 200 square feet with only 2 feet to walk around. There is no windows and I am concerned a simple dehumidifier might not be enough.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster -- one I've seen many times. Dealing with chlorinated pools indoors is hard; dealing with chlorinated (or brominated) spas indoors is much harder.

Lemme show you some pictures. First, here's the pool, the other pictures are associated with -- because it wasn't heated or aerated regularly it was NOT nearly the problem your Endless Pool will be:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bde4-ayJJwo/T8--d6b0HJI/AAAAAAAADJA/hk2UgS__JOY/s800/pool.jpg

And, here some of the consequences:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9ryX6o7JFxM/T8--d5ScUJI/AAAAAAAADI8/yN2tiuE_r2M/s800/weight%2520machine.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a1T2LK9Rrb4/T8--dWgsHXI/AAAAAAAADIs/-jdVhxLTnoE/s800/door%2520hinge.jpg

Now, I didn't know as much then (2000 -- my first digital camera) as I do now. I took a picture of the electrical panel, for reference,

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ogQhi6VNygE/T8--fwF7pMI/AAAAAAAADJM/TRe6JOfaqpE/s640/electrical%2520panel.jpg

but if I had, this is what I would have found (pic from Nachi.org -- National Assoc. of Cert. Home Inspectors):

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7mmeGTv761E/T8--dSXd8HI/AAAAAAAADIw/kzB0jL9Oujo/s400/chlorine%2520wire.jpg

Notice how the green copper chloride goes all the way into the wiring connection points. Copper chloride is NOT a good conductor. Having bad conducting surfaces on electrical wires causes resistance. Resistance causes heat. And, hot wires start fires!

I know of multiple cases of building destruction by badly managed indoor pools (and almost all are badly managed!)

Here's the good news:
1. The problem can be solved.
2. I can help.

But, there's more bad news.
1. The fix is NOT easy.
2. Or cheap.
3. I won't help for free.
4. Or, now -- you'd have to wait till this fall.
5. Hardly anybody -- including pool engineers -- knows how to do this right.

If you want to fix this yourself, do all these things:

1. Remove 100% of the existing wiring, lighting, and sheet rock in the room.
2. Rewire ONLY what's essential, using full plastic conduit, outdoor receptacles, switches, and fixtures.
3. Wiring must be SOLID wire only, and a full ground must be run everywhere.
4. Install a corrosion resistant air-to-air heat exchanger, and set it to run continuously, venting the room and replacing room air with fresh air.
5. Have the ventilation installer balance the air flow, so the room with the spa is at NEGATIVE pressure, relative to the house, or any other connected building.
6. Install water-resistant and mildew resistant sheet rock.
7. Contract for ANNUAL inspections of the switches, wiring and receptacles, and the air balance, to assure that corrosion is NOT occurring, and that negative air pressure is maintained 100% of the time.
8. If you install a dehumidifier, replace it annually OR have it inspected for corrosion.
9. Install a smoke detectors, but replace THEM annually, to avoid corrosion induced silent failure.
10. Consider the use of an EFFECTIVE non-chlorine sanitation system, such as high output UV + DE filtration + dosing with peroxide to 50 - 100 ppm and polyquat to 2 - 4 ppm. Note that this will maintain water clarity, but is NOT sufficient to allow you to safely swim with anyone who is carrying giardia, crypto, or any other bacterial, viral or amoebic GI infection, a bad cold, herpes, or some other things.

A BETTER ALTERNATIVE:

1. Put the pool in an covered but OPEN garage.

There. You just got $5,000 worth of design advice that you probably could not get anywhere else in the world. I know you probably think I'm going overboard. I wish I had photos of all the disasters I've seen -- including one event in which a feed system design error error on a NEW indoor pool did $200,000 worth of damage in ONE weekend. (I was a paid consultant on that one; the mechanical engineers ended up hating my guts, and demanded that all photos be turned over. Because it was a showcase project at a non-profit for them, with donated fees, they got what they wanted.)

Sorry.

[karynfab]

Thank you for your very scary and thorough response. I spoke with my contractor and electrician and went thru your list and his main concern was that a simple dehumidifier wouldn't get all the moisture out.

This is a 200 square foot garage, the pool is 7X14 whcih takes almost entire garage I believe it will be heated to at least 85 degrees.

The plan was to use it at a max 3 hrs a day. Typically 120 minutes a day. IT WILL BE COVERED WHEN NOT IN USE which is supposed to keept 96% of the humidity out. No heat source in garage yet and looking into choices. I live in NY and was only going to heat garage 30 minutes before swim and during.

My contractor believed if I got a indoor EXPENSIVE pool dehumidier (which covers almost 1500 sq) that I would not need to worry about changing the exisiting wires in the garage. There are some alumunium wires in the ceiling presently. Another concern is we have our cable box and garage door opener in the garage.

We are going to vapor barrier all the walls, ceiling. Of course moisture resistance sheetrock. I am getting a price quote to change all the wires.

We are putting in an outside door that goes from our dining room to garage to prevent air escape. We are also putting up a fake wall where the garage door is that will be insulated to prevent air escape.

What do you think? And again thanks for your reply.

.


I am using this pool for rehabilation and want to make sure it is properly done.

[PoolDoc]

I spoke with my contractor and electrician and went thru your list and his main concern was that a simple dehumidifier wouldn't get all the moisture out.

He's right. It couldn't begin to keep up during use periods



I live in NY and was only going to heat garage 30 minutes before swim and during.
Yikes! That GUARANTEES cold walls and wires, resulting in MAXIMUM condensation!



My contractor believed if I got a indoor EXPENSIVE pool dehumidifier (which covers almost 1500 sq) that I would not need to worry about changing the existing wires in the garage.

Wrong! Those systems are expensive, confusing, and hard to maintain. Few people -- including hospital maintenance staff! -- have been able to understand them well enough to operate them effectively.

A MUCH better choice for you, given intermittent heating, would be an OLD-STYLE gas heat system with 100% outside air, and a matching powered exhaust vent. This would come much closer to maintaining reasonable humidity levels during use.


There are some aluminum wires in the ceiling presently. Another concern is we have our cable box and garage door opener in the garage.

"Aluminum", spelled "F I R E". I thought you were taking over the garage? Replace the door with removable panels. The opener AND the tracks are likely to corrode.


We are going to vapor barrier all the walls, ceiling. Of course moisture resistance sheet rock. I am getting a price quote to change all the wires.

OK, good.

You might be able to get a successful installation if you

move 100% of the wiring and switches OUTSIDE the pool room, leaving only the cable from the pool, and the (sealed!) light fixture in the room.
install 100% outside air heat, with 105% powered exhaust
seal the room off room from all other equipment, wiring, tracks, operators, lights, etc.


Of course, a functionally superior way (though probably architecturally unacceptable!) would be a freestanding double wall polycarbonate 'greenhouse' enclosure, using treated wood and SS fasteners, with gas heat. That would completely eliminate the problems

[karynfab]

1) The endless pool has a INSULATED COVER that prevents 96% of the humidity when the pool is not in use. The Max time pool will be open 2-3hrs. a day. Wouldn't that make a huge difference in keeping in the humidity?

Here are the 2 dehumidifiers I was talking about:

http://www.sylvane.com/hiedry-100-dehumidifier.html

http://www.sylvane.com/santa-fe-advance-dehumidifier.html

2. We do NOT have a GAS line and can't use GAS for heating.

3. The other option to heat the space is to run existing loop on our first floor from my living room to get baseboard heat to garage.($2200). Our garage is between our living room and den and accessed thru the dining room.

4. Our electric panel is in our dining room NOT garage.

5. I'll look into replacing the garage door. Thanks.

6. Wouldn't the vapor barriers and resistant water sheetrock protect the wires inside the walls?


Many thanks, this is the only place we can put it.

[PoolDoc]

1. Sorry, I'm not going to dig into product selection for you; I've done more than I said I would.

2. Use propane.

3. Electrical heat will be VERY expensive not matter how you do it. If you have a oil heat with a boiler . . . I don't know what the costs will be.

6. ONLY if there are no connections. Air doesn't get into wires; it does get into receptacles and switches.