Planning an AG pool

[BethyM]

We are still in the considering/planning stages for an ABG pool. It's the 2nd year it's been discussed so we'll probably pull the trigger soon or decide to do a spring install next year. Two questions:

1) Does the end of the season bring discounts? If we wait a couple more months there won't be much swimming season left this year but if it would afford us some savings I might consider it.

2) Is the pool store package a good place to start? I'm trying to read as much as I can. I know there's a few components that are less expensive if I buy them on my own but for the bulk of it will I regret going with their filter/pump etc?

We're considering a 27' resin pool (resin because someday we want to add a SWCG). Package has a 2hp 2speed pump and 26" sand filter with it... I don't know the brands, can find out if it matters. Standard tools, etc. Seems no matter how I slice it I end up around the 5k mark installed.

I know that's not a lot of specifics! I'm going to keep reading and look at some pictures (once my membership is upgraded :-)) I've already learned a ton!

[aylad]

Hi BethyM,

Welcome to the forum!!

I'll let the equipment folks comment on your questions, but I will tell you that a 2 hp pump is probably going to be way too big for a 27' pool. It could be that you can save some money (or at least some headaches down the road) by going with a smaller pump.

You can search through the forums now, using the google search feature in my sig, although you may have to log out to see the results until Ben finishes your registration process. Also read everything you can at our sister site, Poolsolutions.com. There's a wealth of info at the forum and at that site...and we'll be happy to answer any questions that you come up with :)

[BigTallGuy]

Hi BethyM and Welcome to the Forum. I agree with Aylad. 2Hp pump is over 2x what I think you will really need.

Depending upon your location, end of the season will usually bring closeout sales and bargains. But those items can be what they couldn't sell to anyone else for a multitude of reasons. My advice is to know what you are shopping for and try not to settle for what's on sale. I would definetly look for a smaller Pump/Filter package.

FWIW, SWCG's work well in a Vinyl lined pool. $5k sounds a little pricey to me for 27' even with install. What part of the country are you located in? Post back with a break down of the costs by Pool, Filter, Labor etc. if you can and Brand names would surely help.

[BethyM]

Thanks for the response... Here's the breakdown on the pool package

27' Opera (54" Resin)
25ml Mystri Gold Beaded Liner
Appropriate Sized Sand Filter (26") and 2 speed (2hp) pump -- Still need to ask about the brands on these.
Deluxe Smart Step Ladder System
Leaf Net
18" Pool Brush
Vacuum Hose and Head
Telescoping Maintenance Pole
Thermometer
Backwash Hose
Floating Chlorinator
Chemical Test Strips
5lb Poolife cleaning tablets
4lb Poolife Rapid shock
pH Up
pH Down
Alkalinity Increaser
Poolife Stabilizer and Conditioner
Poolife algae bomb 60
Winter Cover
Solar Cover
Patriot Automatic Pool Vacuum
Foam Coving Included
Package Price: $3999 + 8% sales tax Install: $975

Pentair IC20: $999.99 - will include the salt

So, 5k is the pool and another 1 if I want the salt unit now - I will likely not pay their price for the SWCG and order it online.

I'm located in a suburb of St. Louis. I'm certain we want to do the SWCG even if we don't do it initially so that's why I've limited my search to the resin pools. Most stores don't even want to sell you a pool the minute you mention putting the swcg on there. I appreciate any and all feedback!!! Thanks guys.

[aylad]

Are those things in the package all bundled together, or did you pick out those particular things? I can tell you that the pool strips will be a waste of money. pH up is the same thing as Borax, which is MUCH cheaper. Alkalinity Increaser is the same as baking soda, which is also MUCH cheaper than the pool store will sell it for. I don't know about the Poolife algae bomb, but if it's not polyquat, then that's also a waste of money. What is the chemical ingredient in the Poolife rapid shock and the Poolife cleaning tablets?

Also,, when Pooldoc and Mas985(and some of the other equipment gurus) comment, I think they're going to say that a 2 hp pump is way too big for this pool, unless you really upsize the filter.....

[BethyM]

This is the package the store puts together - I kind of figured the pool chems were just extras... I already keep Borax on hand for ant bait and intend to use BBB in conjunction with the SWCG. I'll call and get info on the pump today as I know they are sometimes rated one way by marketing and another way by reality :-) Thanks for looking at it!

[BigTallGuy]

FWIW I would price out a Vinyl lined pool for comparison. I and many others are running a SWCG in a Vinyl lined AG pool with no issues. I'd love to see the comparison between the Resin and the Vinyl. The 2HP pump will be a waste of money, period.

[BigDave]

I like the 26" filter but 2HP pump sounds too big. 2 speed is good. Get the specifics on the pump and filter so we can know what it really is. That wouls be a good price for that pool in my area. Consider the convenience of having the SWCG plumbed in and running without having to mess around with it yourself.

[BethyM]

BigTallGuy: This is a Vinyl lined pool -- It has Resin top rails, bottom rail, and resin coated steel supports. Is that what you mean? Are you guys using them on pools with steel rails as well? It's hard for me to understand how such a low concentration of salt can be a problem but the warranty verbage sure does make me shy away from the steel rails.

BigDave: I got the specifics! As for the SWCG, I like the IC20 from ease of use and being plumbed right into the system. The hang on SWCG are less expensive, but I see myself hollerin at kids to leave it alone a lot too!

OK, Pump and Filter specs....

Manufacturer: Water Way
Pump: PM2201-6 -- 2hp 2speed pump
Filter: 522-5371-6MH -- 400lb 26" sand filter
Includes a Waterport 6 way multiport valve on top

Thoughts?? You guys are awesome! Thanks!

[BethyM]

I don't seem to be able to find the exact filter but he did say it's the large black 'egg' shaped one - So I assume it's the oval and not the round one.

Apparently, I'm the first person to ask for model numbers for the equipment. :-S

[PoolDoc]

He said "it's the large black 'egg' shaped one"?

Wow. Now there's a guy that knows his product! (NOT!!)

[BethyM]

No kidding! We're going in person this weekend, the owner knows his stuff... will be nice to bypass Bubba pool boy.

With the 2 speed pump... would you run it on Iow most of the time for filtering and just use on high for vacuuming?

We are leaning towards doing the pool (yeah) but waiting on the swcg and just doing bbb in the meantime. Decided we'd rather sink the 1k in deck lumber than the swcg for now. That puts us at 3999 for pool pkg and 975 installation.

[BigTallGuy]

BigTallGuy: This is a Vinyl lined pool -- It has Resin top rails, bottom rail, and resin coated steel supports. Is that what you mean? Are you guys using them on pools with steel rails as well? It's hard for me to understand how such a low concentration of salt can be a problem but the warranty verbage sure does make me shy away from the steel rails.

Yes, My bad, I'm sorry. I should have used the word Traditional Vinyl Lined pool. I have mine installed on a traditional Steel Walled, Steel Rail, Steel Vertical Supports 24' AG Pool. As Waterbear stated, I have my Pump and SWCG Bonded directly into the GFCI, and after two years of operation, I have not noticed ANY rust or corrosion on the steel components of the pool or anywhere else in the system. I am in Arizona and don't have humidity/moisture problems, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[BethyM]

Another question... can I buy this and use it on the traditional abg? Can it hook right up or does it require 'retrofitting'?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/19336123

[PoolDoc]

Dunno for sure, but I'd bet on "will require retro-fitting". Ask me in a month, and I'll probably know. I'm planning to set up 2 side-by-side Intex pools as test pools.

[BethyM]

Well, we're joining the club! Install will be in a couple weeks... we decided to forgo the swcg for now so i need to read all I can to get us off to a great start! Is there a 'what to do with your new pool' guide?

[aylad]

Any getting started links I should check out?

The stickies at the top of each forum--followed by all you can read from the forum and our sister site, Poolsolutions.com (http://Poolsolutions.com). The better you understand this from the beginning of your pool's life, the easier and more fun your pool will be.

[Watermom]

I would just add, go ahead and order a K-2006 or 2006C kit from the test kit page in my signature below so you'll have it from day one as you start filling the pool.

You're gonna love having a pool! :)

[BethyM]

Test kit ordered, install setup, electrician scheduled, building permit in the works.. thank goodness its a small project!

Big tall... it was 600 less for steel but had walls that were 2 in shorter so we opted for the taller :-) swcg is in the future, but not this season. Now to see how it all comes together!

[BethyM]

Working on my 'plan' for when the pool gets here as far as getting the water going. Kids are asking for what date they can swim!! LOL I'm not much more patient than them :-) I assume if they want to freeze their butts off day 1, the hose water is no worse than the kiddie pool but then we need to start adding stuff to get the levels right. My "package" comes with all these handy dandy poolife chems. Is there any harm in starting the pool with them and then immediately starting to use the BBB? If I'm reading it right, the only 'poolstore' chem I need is the CYA, so part of me wants to call up and ask him how much the chem package is worth and convert it all to CYA or get a credit :D I've already ordered a snazzy test kit so the strips are, as pointed out earlier, not useful.

Thoughts?

[Watermom]

See if you can get a credit on the pool chems. On many of them, they are blended mixes and have stuff in them you don't want plus they usually also give you a bunch of stuff you don't need.

[aylad]

If they'll give you credit for it, I'd use that for your CYA and for liquid chlorine, if they sell it there (which is the same thing as bleach, just 12% instead of 6%).

[BethyM]

Thanks! I'll discuss it when I call to pay the balance.

I'm officially a water snob -- just got home from taking the kids to the Y and it was cloudy! Like, can't see your toes in 3'6" water - We didn't stay long... before studying up for our own pool I don't think I would have realized how 'off' it really was. Makes me glad ours is installed next week!

[Watermom]

A water snob, huh? That's what you call it? Then, this forum is full of 'em!

[BigDave]

I've been accused of many forms of snobbery in my life, Music snob, Beer snob, Wine snob, Scotch snob, ..., Water snob. OK. But my view is that it's not snobbery but education and refinenment. I supppose that sounds pretty snobish.

[BethyM]

BigDave: I love your explanation!! I suppose 'snob' wasn't the nicest choice of words, appreciate your explanation getting to the essence of what I meant :-) Thanks! I definitely don't think it's a bad thing and am grateful for my new knowledge!

I was surprised by how much more observant I was of the water. It was packed and we were playing with the dive sticks and the kids had a hard time seeing them. :-(

[Watermom]

Years ago when I got married, we went to the beach for our honeymoon. This was way before I knew anything about pools. I had really long blonde hair. A couple of days into the trip, my husband and I were walking down the beach and he looked at me and said, "your ponytail is green." When I got back to the hotel and looked in the mirror, I couldn't believe it. Yep, it was green! :mad::mad: Of course, at the time, I thought it was the fault of the chlorine in the pool. Now I know better. Apparently that hotel pool had been treated with some product that had copper in it. I spent the following afternoon in a beauty shop having some kind of red goop put on my hair to get rid of the green. Whatever she did worked though.

So, now that I know better, I typically don't put my head underwater when I swim at pools other than my own. (Of course, I wouldn't be afraid to swim in all of y'alls pools since y'all are all so smart and know the right things to add and not add to your water!) :)

[BethyM]

Pool store wasn't keen on credit for the 'package' chems. I also asked him what to add, and he said "call back when it's filled, I'll walk you through"... mm, thanks! Maybe at that point I can 'exchange' unopened items for more useful items.

Tested my fill water: This is city water, from the hose...

FC = .5ppm
TA = this is where direction following helps. I got to 32 drops (yikes) and it changed color when I dropped it in but the sample then went back to green. I read the 'detailed' directions and suspect I wasn't fully inverting the bottle to get a full sized drop so hoping that number is high, or doesn't matter on my vinyl lined ABG. So, my question that I didn't find answered is whether you've got your result when the drop added changes color or if the whole sample is suppose to change?

PH = 7.5
CH = 425 (and this is where I stopped with a 'purple' sample - never saw blue. I *know* the fill water is hard - does this indicate 'other' minerals? Should I put a sock on the hose when we fill it?)

I've been working on figuring out what to do after install, so see if I'm thinking on the right lines. Need to add chlorine and keep it ?at what level? while CYA has a chance to dissolve. CYA is added by either using the 'tablets' they give me to add both chlorine and CYA together or with bleach + CYA.

The other concern I have is the calcium, I believe the 'chlorine' I get with my kit is cal-hypo and I don't think I want to ADD Calcium to my pool! I've got bleach on hand and don't plan to open the cal-hypo. What problems can I expect from hard water? I'm reading the Lime Softening article now :-)

Thanks!!! T -39 hours and counting :-)

[aylad]

With the TA test, it is normal to get the sample to flash to the pink but then return to green when you get near the endpoint, but you're not at the endpoint until one more drop doesn't make any color change--and then you don't count that last drop. So Looks like your TA is more than 320, which isn't all that uncommon. If you don't have metals, and don't have plans for an SWCG, then I wouldn't worry much about the alk for now.There is a possibility that it will help precipitate the high calcium--let me look into that (or one of the other folks will chime in and offer an opinion), but if it won't, then trying to lower it is going to be a losing battle because you'll just raise it again everytime you have to top of the pool with your fill water.


The calcium, however, is a different story. Unless you use the cal-hypo to actually REMOVE the calcium (Pooldoc's the one to explain that one), I wouldn't add it to the pool just for chlorination. High calcium tends to produce milky water. While chemically it's not unsafe to swim in, it does create a danger if you can't see a swimmer underwater that may be having troubles.

Bleach, bleach, bleach...to keep chlorine levels at 1-3 ppm at all times until stabilizer is in the water. If you chlose to use the trichlor tabs, then that will lower your pH and add CYA. (I'd target 30-50 ppm of CYA but it'll take awhile to get there just using tabs).

[BethyM]

Drumroll--- we've had our first swim!!! AND I did my first 'pool' water test. The swim was a balmy 75.... but the kids had fun. No pictures because I was the in water supervisor -- brrrr.

FC=.5
CC=0
PH=7.2
Here's where it gets fun....
TA=425
CH=550

I did not test for CYA since all I have so far is the 1inch tabs. Going to get some CYA in a sock tonight and do another dose of chlorine... I added like 45oz of bleach this morning and put 5oz of trichlor in the floater to get some CYA in.

30' pool so 21200 gallons. pH was lower than I expected. We did fill part of the pool with the neighbors water... not sure if they soften it or something?

[Watermom]

That is some high alk and TA. Read the following about lowering alk and about using muriatic acid safely.

Lowering Alkalinity Step-by-Step (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html)

Using Muriatic Acid Safely (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111-Using-Muriatic-Acid-to-Safely-Lower-Your-Pool-s-pH.html)

Also, trichlor is acidic and drives pH down. So, you'll need to be adding Borax to bring it up. But, then to drop the alk you'll need to add acid to drop the pH and alk and then aerate the pH up. It's gonna be a crazy cycle.

My opinion is that if it were my pool, I'd just add CYA outright and not use trichlor. Go ahead and let the pucks that you put in dissolve and then don't use more. That way, you can go ahead and start working to lower the alk.

Make sense?

[BethyM]

Thanks for the link! I had read another article about precipitating it out and it sounded like mucho effort! This makes total sense and seems so simple it's brilliant.

Questions:
1) When have you lowered the pH to a point that you can't swim? I guess a better question is, what are the water conditions under which you shouldn't let people in! I noticed in the article that it talked about 10 year old boys aerating. I personally think it's an excellent excuse for one of those fountains I've been eyeing up ;-)

2) How frequently are you adding acid and testing in step 5? I'm assuming we'd target 100ppm since clearly it's a fill water problem and may be a recurring issue of it creeping up over time. What is the range of pH where this is effective? If I maintain 7.2 and aerate, will I see a drop of TA over time?

I'm thinking that it may be a process best left to the end of the swim season if it means the kids can't use the pool but am super excited that it's such a straight forward effort. I was afraid I was doomed with my hard water forever! I'm still hoping the town puts in softening in the new water treatment plant -- we can hope!!

I'm off to add my CYA and put a dose of bleach in. How do you calculate the dose sizes? I've seen the online pool calculator but curious how others figure it.

[Watermom]

You can use the pool while you are working on lowering the alk. You won't want to drop your pH too low --- probably just to about 7.0 and then you start aerating it back up. It is fine to swim with pH at this level. A fountain is certainly one good way to aerate in addition to aiming the return jet upward to create a lot of bubbling and splashing on the water's surface.

You add acid again when you aerate your pH back up to 7.8 or so. Then, it is time for another dose of acid. Adding the acid drops the ph and the alk level. The aeration brings the pH back up without the alk rising. It is a ratcheting process and works great but it takes several cycles, especially when your alk is very high as yours is. It is not the aeration that drops the alk. it is the acid. The aeration brings the pH back up so that you can repeat the process.

To clarify for you, this does not affect the calcium hardness. It affects the total alkalinity which is not the same thing. One thing at a time. Once your alk is where you want it (and 100 is a good target) then you can see about lowering the calcium hardness. Ask about that later.

Regarding doses ------ the pool calculator is complicated. One that most people do better with is this one called the 'bleach calculator.' But, it has way more calcs than just one for bleach. If you click in the upper left hand corner, you'll find many more. After you have a look at it, let us know if you still need help figuring out doses and we'll be gad to help.

http://www.poolforum.com/zxq/BleachCalc262.exe

You're doing great!