new to pool stuff

[Red Gate Zoo]

We bought a house last year that had been vacant for a couple years & the pool had frogs & tadpoles in it. We had it drained, acid washed & re-filled. Had the filter cleaned & all the equipment was working. We had no idea how to maintain the pool & never got algae under control. Finally gave up & let it go green again over the winter. I started dumping "shock" in it this spring with little results. Went to the pool store & they sold me a 25lb. bucket of "shock" & said to dump the whole thing in. It made a significant difference. Then I did some serious internet study & found the BBB method. It makes so much sense! I went to Leslie's & bought a DPD test kit- #2004B. The 1st time I tested I got 1 FC, 2.5 TC, pH 7.4, & added 256 oz. 6% bleach. Next 3 testings appeared to be less than .5 FC, 1 TC, pH 7.3. CYA test: dot in tube never disappeared, so less than 30? Help please.

[Watermom]

How does your water look now? What was the ingredient of the shock you put in? What is the volume of your pool? What kind of filter do you hae and what size of pump?

We usually recommend that people buy a Taylor K-2006 kit but since you recently bought a DPD kit, you can buy an add-on for the FAS-DPD test which you will need. You can find it on the test kit page in my signature below. The kit you want to get is the K-1515. Do this ASAP because you will need it to help you get this cleared up.

Re-post with the requested info and someone here can help you.

Welcome to the Pool Forum!

[Red Gate Zoo]

I can now see the bottom in the shallow end. Water still has a slight green tint. Shock was calcium hypo. 34,000 gals. DE filter (Nautilus Plus SP), pump 2.20 hp. I tried to order the K-1515 kit but it said I am not authorized to go there. A web search found a K-1515A kit. Is that the same one? Is it something I might find locally in the Dallas area? Thanks for the help!

[PoolDoc]

Hi Debbie;

I check addresses, when upgrading memberships and . . . Google Maps has a very impressive picture of your green pool. If you haven't seen it, you might want to take a look.

If you would, please post your pool info here:

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

It makes it easier for us to check the record, and make sure our answers are on target.

[Watermom]

I tried to order the K-1515 kit but it said I am not authorized to go there. A web search found a K-1515A kit. Is that the same one? Is it something I might find locally in the Dallas area? Thanks for the help!

That is the same kit. And, I doubt you would be able to find it locally. Try the testkit page again and if it still doesn't work, report back and I'll ask Ben to see if he can figure out why.

[PoolDoc]

She probably tried before I upgraded her membership.

[Red Gate Zoo]

Yup. I ordered it now. Thanks.

[Red Gate Zoo]

I'm trying to get control of a swampy pool (Dallas, TX area). Concrete, 34,000 gal. Running DE filter 24/7, backwashing 3x/day. Running Polaris 3900 10-12 cycles/day, cleaning out green goo each time. (It used to get plugged at 15 min. Now going 1 hr.) Adding between 3-6 gal. bleach nightly. Water is now fairly clear, can see the bottom in the shallow end, but still lots of green debris settled on bottom. I've been testing with Taylor2004B. Results have been in the following ranges: FC=1.5-5, TC=2-5, pH=8, cannot get CYA test to work. I received my Taylor K1515 kit today. At 5 pm, I used 25mL sample. It took 17 dippers of powder to get it to turn slightly pink, 1 drop of R-1871 to clear (.2ppm FC?), added 5 drops #3 reagent to turn slightly pink again, 2 drops R-0871 to clear (.4ppm CC?). What do you recommend? Do I need to add muriatic acid? I'm still confused by the testing numbers & what they tell me to do.

EDIT by Watermom:
Red -- I merged this new thread that you started this evening with your other thread where we have been helping you. It is better to keep everything all in one place instead of having two separate threads going.

[Watermom]

If you get no pink with 2 dippers of powder, then you have no chlorine. I hate that you wasted so much of your powder! Also, when you test, use the 10 ml sample instead of the 25ml sample so you'll save on your reagents. A 0.5ppm precision rather than a 0.2 is just fine.

If your pH is 8, then you do want to use a little muriatic acid to drop it down a bit. Please read the using muriatic acid safely link in my signature.

Have you added any CYA or any trichlor or dichlor since your last CYA test which you reported as being less than 30? You say that the CYA test didn't work. What do you mean by that? You should add pool water up to the 7ml line and then R-0013 to bring it up to the 14ml line and then gently shake it and let it sit for a minute. Then, hold the tube at waist level in good daylight and pour the contents slowly into the graduated cylinder stopping when you can no longer see the black dot. If the black dot never disappears, then you have a CYA level less than 30ppm. Does this describe what happened when you tested?

Go ahead and add 7 gallons of bleach this evening if you can. Wait an hour or so and test the chlorine level. Then, in the morning, test again within hours of sunrise and note how much chlorine you lose overnight and if you have any CC reading. Then post those results.

Here is an online demo from Taylor Technologies that may be helpful to you. http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products_choose_slideshow.asp

[Red Gate Zoo]

Added 7 gal. bleach @ 10p. Here are my results @ 11:30p: FC=14, CC=1, Ph=8 (3 drops R-0005 brought pH=7.7). Results @ 8a: FC=7.5, CC=1, pH=8 (2 drops R-005 brought pH=7.4), TA=70, CH=275. CYA test was as you described, each time dot did not disappear. I have not added anything but bleach since my last post. Thank you for the links & the help!

[Watermom]

You're welcome. i hope you went ahead and added more bleach this morning. With a 6.5ppm chlorine drop overnight and a CC reading of 1ppm, you are still in the fight. Continue to keep the chlorine at shock level, testing and adding bleach several times each day and especially important to do so in the evenings. And, continue to do the overnight test as described above. You need to continue to do this until you lose no more than 1ppm of chlorine overnight, have no more than a 0.5ppm CC and the water is clear. Once all three of these conditions are met, then keep the chlorine high for one additional day and then you can let it drift down.

You do need to lower the pH with some muriatic acid as I mentioned before. However, having said that, please make sure you test the pH when the chlorine isn't so high. Testing it at shock levels will usually give a falsely high pH reading. *IF* your pH reading above was done when the pH was at shock level, don't trust it and don't add any muriatic acid until the pH test is run again with lower chlorine levels.

Once you get this cleared up, what are your plans for adding CYA? Do you want to buy some and add it separately or do you want to use some dichlor for awhile which will add chlorine and CYA at the same time? Once you get the CYA to 50, you'll want to stop the dichlor however.

[Red Gate Zoo]

What exactly is shock level? I used up all my bleach last night so I'll need to run out & get more. I'll test again before I add the bleach to see if my chlorine & pH is still too high to add muriatic acid. I think I would like to add CYA separately.

[Red Gate Zoo]

Results @ 1:30p: FC=0. Added 7 gals. bleach. Will test again in an hour.

I forgot to mention the pH was 7.6 at last test (1:30p), so I did not add any muriatic acid.

[Watermom]

7.6 is just fine.

[Red Gate Zoo]

Results @ 3p: FC=5, CC=2, pH=7.6. Should I add CYA now? How much?

[Watermom]

No, wait to add the CYA until you get this other problem cleared up. Keep at it per my instructions in post #11 above. In a pool with a CYA level of less than 30, the shock level that you need to be aiming to keep the chlorine at is around 12, though it doesn't have to be exact. In your pool, each gallon of 6% bleach will add about 1.8ppm of chlorine. Use that as a reference to help you figure out how much bleach you need to add each time you test.

Have you bought any CYA yet? Even though your CYA test shows none, it actually means "less than 30." So, we have no way to know if you have 0 ppm or 30 ppm of CYA. So, in order to keep from overshooting, we have to assume you have about 30 for now. So, go ahead and buy about 5lbs. of CYA. 5 lbs. will add a little less than 20ppm of CYA. After it is added --- don't do it yet ---- we'll give it a week and then re-test the CYA and see where you are then. If more is needed, then you can do so at that time. When you buy it (if you haven't already), it may be labeled as stabilizer or conditioner. Check the label ingredients. You want to see cyanuric or isocyanuric acid and not a lot of other stuff. You may be able to find it at Walmart or you may end up having to get it at a pool store. The way to add it is to pour it into the skimmer while the pump is running and then run the pump 24/7 for 4 or 5 days to let it dissolve. OR you can put it in an old sock and hang it in front of a return jet. Give the sock a squeeze every now and then to help it dissolve faster. Move the sock away from the return jet when you add other chemicals through the skimmer.

IF you are going to add the CYA separately (which is what I always do) you will NOT want to use any stabilized forms of chlorine or else your CYA will get too high. So, that means no dichlor shock powder or trichlor pucks.

One more thing, please make a signature line with your type of pool, volume, type of filter and size of pump. Also, put that you have a K-2006 kit. This way, when we are replying to posts, your info will be right there in front of us. Makes it easier to answer questions. Click on the signature link in my signature below to make one for yourself. Thanks.

EDIT to add: If you haven't already done so, please read the Best Guess Chlorine Chart in my signature below. It shows the correlation between CYA levels and needed chlorine levels.

[Red Gate Zoo]

Here are my numbers for the past few days: 6/15 @ 11:30p: FC=9 CC=1 pH=7.8, added 1.4 gal. bleach. 6/16 @ 7a: FC=8.5 CC=1 pH=7.6, FC dropped to 0 by noon & ranged from 0-3.5 throughout the day, added a total of 14.5 gal bleach, 76 oz. borax (pH drifted down to 7.2) & 7 lbs. cal-hypo 48%. 6/16 @ 11:30p: FC=10 CC=1 pH=7.8, added 1 more lb. cal-hypo. 6/17 @ 6a: FC=11 CC=1 pH=8. FC was down to .5 by 10:30a. Added a total of 17 lbs. cal-hypo throughout the day. 6/17 @ 10:30p: FC=11 CC=.5 pH=7.6, added 2 lbs. cal-hypo. 6/18 @ 7:30a: FC=11.5 CC.5 pH=7.6; @ 1:30p FC was down to 0, added 8 lbs. cal-hypo. Water is sparkling clear! Is it time to add cyanuric acid yet? I think I'm starting to figure this out with your help! Thank you!!!

[Watermom]

I think you can go ahead and start adding CYA since it is such a pain to have to keep adding chlorine so often but still keep a close eye on your overnight chlorine loss and your CC readings. Also, until that CYA levels starts to register, you will continue to lose chlorine fast and thus will need frequent additions. Once you have a CYA reading of 40-50 and still have no overnight chlorine loss and no greater than a 0.5ppm CC reading, then you should be able to go to testing and adding chlorine in the evenings only.

How are you planning to introduce the CYA to the pool?

[Red Gate Zoo]

Pool store sold me Instant Conditioner: *monosodium cyanurate monohydrate 35%, percentage of constituents ineffective as spray adjuvants 65%. *equivalent to 30% cyanuric acid. Directions say to pour in skimmer. They only sold me 1 gal. Now I see that I will need 3-5 gals. depending on what the actual CYA is now, right?

[Watermom]

I am not familiar with the instant conditioner as I have always used the granular. I know it is quite a bit more expensive than granular. Maybe Waterbear is familiar with it and can advise you on its use. If the price is ridiculous and you need a large amount, I think I'd consider taking it back and just buying granular. I'll ask Waterbear to have a look at your post.

[Red Gate Zoo]

I will definitely take it back. Price was ridiculous! I found granular 96% at Home Depot for MUCH less. Directions say to slowly add it to the skimmer & not backwash for 48 hrs.

[waterbear]

The stuff is a slurry of the monosodium salt of cyanuric acid. Its advantage is that the CYA is available in the water as soon as it is mixed. Its disadvantage is that is is VERY expensive compared to CYA. I gallon will add about 35 ppm in 10k gallons of water for around $30 whereas 3 lbs of granular CYA will do the same for about $5/lb or less (about half the price). Whether it is worth it depends on how quickly you want the CYA in the water. You would need about 6 lbs of dichlor to add about the same amount of CYA and at about $5/lb or higher average price works out to be about the same as the liquid stabilizer. Advantage is you also get the chlorine (about 40 ppm in all when you add 6 lbs), disadvantage is that you cannot add the entire dose at one time.

As far as the granuular CYA. add it slowly to the skimmer, run your pump continuously for the next 24-48 hours, don't backwash for a week, and don't test the level for a week.
Also, the Taylor number for your leslies 81-330 is K-2005. Since you have added the FAS-DPD test you have teh equivalent of a K-2006. You might want to consider adding the OTO test kit for quick daily checks (Taylor K-1000 or Leslies 18554, they are the same) If you do be aware that the pH reagents is NOT the same one as the one in the bigger kit so don't mix them up!

Hope this helps.

[Red Gate Zoo]

I have added the granular cyanuric in a sock. Waiting for it to dissolve. What FC level should I be aiming for now? What CYA level eventually?

[aylad]

With no CYA in the water, make sure you keep your chlorine between 3-6 ppm at all times. (Now is when the best guess chlorine chart linked in my sig will become important to you :) ). However, as your CYA level rises, so must your minimum chlorine (use the chart!! ) We usually initially tell people to aim for 40-50 ppm of CYA to start with. However, I'm about 2 1/2 hours from you, so my climate is very much the same as yours, and I find that I lose too much chlorine too fast if I keep it that low. I run my pool at 80-90 ppm CYA, but it's in full sun all day.

My advice to you would be to start with about 50 ppm, test your chlorine use daily for a few days, and see what your average is. Then bump your CYA up by about 10-20 ppm and see if your chlorine use slows down. You can keep bumping up a little at a time this way until you find the point where you're losing the least amount of chlorine in a day. By only bumping up a little at at a time, you won't completely overshoot your idea level, because it's easy to lower the CYA by 10-20 ppm than it is to tell you right off the bat to go for 90 ppm.

[waterbear]

There is NO good reason to put it in a sock with an ingrround pool unless you are still backwashing every day or two. Even in the sock much of it will go out and end up in the filter and if you backwash you will possibly lose some of it. In any case. forget about it for a week and then test the level. Whatever it tests at in a week is going to be it so if it is still to low then add more.

[Red Gate Zoo]

I guess I have been so accustomed to backwashing 2-3 or more times/ day that letting it go for several days scared me. But I see that the pressure is holding at 10-12 lbs. over "clean" pressure. (Last backwash was about 24 hrs. ago.) So maybe I should backwash once more & then add the cyanuric to the skimmer?

[PoolDoc]

You want to be able to go 2 - 3 days without backwashing, before you add it to your skimmer.

[Red Gate Zoo]

It has been a week since I added 12 lbs. granulated cyanuric acid + 1 gal. liquid Instant Conditioner. The granulated has finally dissolved & my CYA=32 (dot finally disappeared). I am using about 2 lbs. Cal-hypo/day to keep the FC=3-5. pH is holding steady at pH=7.6-7.8. Other results: CC=0-.5, TA=125, CH=500.

Pool never looked better! Sparkling clean! Also, my filter only needs backwashing maybe once a week. What are your recommendations? Should I add more cyanuric?

[Watermom]

You'll probably want the CYA closer to 50 to make it easier to keep chlorine in the pool. I'd quit using the cal-hypo. Your calcium hardness reading is getting pretty high and you may end up with some cloudy water issues. (Recommended level is 200-400 for a gunite pool. Vinyl pools don't need any.)

[waterbear]

As watermom said, stop the cal hypo because your calcium level is pretty high. You might want to consider dropping the TA down a bit (around 80 ppm) so yo don't accidentally create scaling conditions if for some reason the pH should spike (it does happen).

[Red Gate Zoo]

Ok, I'll switch to bleach. How do I lower TA? Muriatic acid? How much?

[Watermom]

Please read the following links. I think they will answer your questions.

Lowering Alkalinity Step-by-Step (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html)

Using Muriatic Acid Safely (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111-Using-Muriatic-Acid-to-Safely-Lower-Your-Pool-s-pH.html)

[Red Gate Zoo]

A little more help needed, please.
Today @ 11am: FC=5.5, pH=8, CYA=55, TA=75, CH=450. FC has been holding steady @ 4-6 by adding 182oz. bleach daily.
I have been adding cyanuric to raise CYA to target of 80. Last addition was 4 lbs. on 6/28. Readings went from 35 on 6/27, 60 on 6/29, 70 on 7/2, 70 on 7/3, 60 on 7/4, 55 on 7/5.

Am I doing the test wrong? I know it shouldn't drop. I have not backwashed. Added about 3-4 inches of water that disappeared very quickly. Suspect I may have a leak near surface. I have also been adding muriatic acid & aerating to lower pH & CH. pH has been @ 7.3-7.6 but I ran out of muriatic & it went up to 7.8-8.

CH went from 500 on 6/28, 450 on 6/29, 400 on 7/1, 500 on 7/2, 450 on 7/3, 400 on 7/4, 450 on 7/5. I am using the 10ml. size test. It seems like the color starts to turn purple-ish at about 15 drops, but doesn't turn blue until 16-18 drops? Again, am I doing it wrong? I know I need to add more muriatic & cyanuric. What else do you recommend? I have set my targets at FC=5-10, pH=7.4-7.8 (after CH goes down), CYA=80-90, CH=200-400, TA=80. Are these reasonable targets?

[Watermom]

Your target numbers look fine.

Don't run the CYA test so often. Also, after your addition of CYA on 6/27, your numbers all range from 55-70. This test is so subjective that you can't pinpoint an exact value, so getting these results doesn't necessarily mean you are losing CYA. They are all within the range. I wouldn't worry about it. Since it has been a week since you added CYA, go ahead and add more if your target is 80-90 but then don't run the test for a week or so. You're going to use up all your reagent if you test so frequently.

Run a CH, pH and TA reading on your fill water. (If you've already been asked to do this and have the results, post them. I didn't want to take the time to reread the whole thread.)

Use some more muriatic acid to lower the pH.

What all are you adding to the pool? (Ingredients, not just product names.)

[Red Gate Zoo]

Fill water results: Ch=125, TA=100, pH=8.0 (or above).

I am using 6% bleach, muriatic/Baume Hydrochloric acid 31.45%, HTH cyanuric acid 96%. Nothing else. I added 1 gal. muriatic & 4 lb. cyanuric last night.

[Watermom]

OK. Keep working on the pH. Stick with bleach for your chlorine. And, don't retest your CYA for a week.

[Red Gate Zoo]

I have a question about CH. I have been trying to lower my CH from 500 since 6/27 by adding muriatic & aerating with fountain. CH went down to 400 but won't go any lower. TA went from 100 down to 50. I have added cyanuric periodically to raise my CYA to 75. I have used only bleach since 6/27. I use approx. 182 oz. 6% bleach/day to keep my FC about 5-7. pH has ranged from 7.1 (right after addition of muriatic) to 7.8. Pool is sparkling clean. Filter hardly ever needs backwashing now. Should I be worried about the high CH?

[PoolDoc]

Aeration + muriatic lowers carbonate alkalinity; it has no effect on calcium levels.

As far as I know, the only two practical ways to lower CH (or TH) are by
(1) draining and refilling -- and this only works if your fill water is soft!
(2) lime softening to precipitate the calcium and then vacuum or filter it out.

You can see if lime softening will work for you, using the calcium bucket test:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16992

[Watermom]

If it was my pool and I had sparkling water, I probably wouldn't worry about CH of 400. That's not super high. In fact, the suggested level is 200-400. But, I would not use any cal-hypo and I would not let my TA and pH get high. Just my opinion.

(Note to others reading --- vinyl pools do not need calcium 200-400.)

[Red Gate Zoo]

Thanks.

I had come to the same conclusion- that 400 was not too high to worry about. My CYA is 75 & I'm using about 182 oz. of bleach a day, sometimes a bit more (364 oz.). I have been thinking of raising the CYA a bit higher (85-90) to hopefully use less bleach as you had suggested a while back, since my pool gets full sun all day.

What do you think?

[Watermom]

If you are using that much bleach each day, you probably would do better with your CYA a little higher. Take it up slowly, though. Don't want to overshoot your target.

[aylad]

You're only a couple of hours away from me, so my climate is much the same as yours--you'll find that you lose a LOT less chlorine if you'll bump your CYA up to 90 or so! That's where I keep mine--and my chlorine loss is only about2-3 ppm daily.