pink algae and other problems

[matthew64]

So I have a inground vinyl liner pool that is 35,000 gallons with some problems. I apparently don't know what I am doing. I have a rather large pink algae problem (the pink/purplish bacteria), it was this spring on all surfaces. it didn't seem to be going away with opening shock or subsequent shocks (I thought I was keeping at around 10ppm, but now am not completely sure). So I went off half cocked, read some things on the internet (not this site) and put several bottles of bromine tablets because I thought I was dealing with chlorine resistant bacteria. That has seemed to work after multiple scrubbings and latest bromine application (4 days ago). At this moment the pool doesn't look bad. But after discovering this site I now realize I screwed up with the bromine. I also discovered that my CYA is sky high (way over 100, maybe even twice that) and that is playing a part.
My levels that I checked this morning were as follows:
FC - 3.5
CC - 3.5
CYA - >>100
Ph - I didnt get a chance to check this AM, but its been running low on test strips like 6.8 or so
Alkalinity - again didn't get a chance to check level today, but its been running low

My question is this. Do I have to drain my pool? I know it would kill 2 birds with one stone (the high CYA and the bromine ions), or could I continue to shock the pool and maybe drain some water to try and lower the CYA? My pool gets full sun by the way for 12 hrs. Thanks for any help!!

[aylad]

You can run a high CYA pool, and just adjust your chlorine levels to compensate. Take a look at the "best guess chlorine chart" linked in my sig. However, I'll have to let Ben answer your question about the bromine.

What type of testing are you doing? We don't find test strips to be reliable--we highly recommend that you get a drop- based kit(see the test kit link in my sig, too). The K-2006 is a good kit that will accurately test most everything you need.

[PoolDoc]

Don't panic; do all the following instead:

1. Get a cheap OTO testkit (or a Walmart HTH 6-way if available)
2. Raise your chlorine to the orangish-yellow range (~20 ppm)
3. Compete the PF Pool Chart, to allow us easy access to your pool info:

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)
4. Look at the test kit info page in my signature, and order a K-2006
5. Brush your pool thoroughly.
6. Check into the cost of having your pool professionally drained. (It's tricky to drain a liner pool without ruining the liner.)

Do not panic; a few bromine tabs are not going to make or break things. (How few was it?)

[matthew64]

Thanks for the replies! I do have the Taylor complete kit, i sometimes use the test strips for quick reference, but I have the Taylor kit.

"Raise the chlorine to 20ppm" - how long should I keep it at that level? Is that 20ppm FC or TC?
my Ph is better than I thought it was - its 7.2 when I checked this morning (with the Taylor), not that does a lot for me.

It was 3 bottles of the walmart type (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-Spa-Non-Chlorine-Oxidizer-Tablets/17043664) over the course of 2 weeks.

[PoolDoc]

It was 3 bottles of the walmart type (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-Spa-Non-Chlorine-Oxidizer-Tablets/17043664) over the course of 2 weeks.

No wonder. You ended up with a false chlorine reading. If you have any left, use them in the toilet tank -- they're not bad for that. (And, it will get rid of them safely!)

Read the Best Guess chart; with a CYA>100, 20 ppm will be the level to hold till we've determined what your actual CYA level is. By the way, it's perfectly safe for swimming -- after you've cleaned up the 'algae' (which is actually bacteria!).

[matthew64]

what do you mean until Ive determined the actual CYA level? My Taylor kit only measures CYA to 100 (but it was much higher). How long would I need to keep my chlorine level that high vs draining the pool?

[BigDave]

Draining the pool is a very tricky business on liner pools. One best left to pros.

You can use dilution to measure CYA higher than 100: Mix 1 part pool water and 1 part tap water (tap water has no CYA), measure the mix for CYA and multiple by 2. If that's still too high to read (mix measures over 100) mix 1 part pool water to 2 parts tap, measure and multiply by 3.

[matthew64]

alright so tonight:

FC-21.5
CC- 3
pH - 7.2
CYA - 300 (at least, using the dilution method (x3) it still wasn't quite to the 100)

So what are my options? continue to run the chlorine at high levels for the foreseeable future or drain the pool? Did that much bromine seal my fate? My wife and I were talking, I think if we have it drained (professionally), we probably would just go ahead and replace the liner as its a year or two from that anyway. I don't really don't want to do this if I don't have to, but that CYA level is not going to be fixed anytime soon with "splashout" and the bromine is in there.

An unrelated question, when I am logged in to the website I can't seem to browse the site other than my post here, when I log out I can access the whole site. Is this a setting I should be changing or do I not have the privileges? Thanks for all the help!

[PoolDoc]

I've upgraded your membership, so some of the problems should be resolved. We've just been hammered with new traffic since just before Memorial day.

You have two options:
1. Drain now, and lose the use of your pool for a month or so.
2. Try to run the pool as is till fall. It may not work, but I'm guessing it will.

If you want to try to run it, you need to
1. Brush the pool completely.
2. Tell me what your water LOOKS and SMELLS like, and what the status of the pink 'algae' is.
3. Do a 24 hour chlorine test, testing at 7pm, 7am, and again at 7pm. Tell me the results AND whether the day was sunny. Make sure the chlorine level is at least 20 ppm when you start.
4. Tell me -- as best you can -- the weight of the bromine tabs consumed in the pool.

Using bromine in an over-stabilized pool is a potentially effective alternative to running FC levels between 15 and 40 ppm. If you add borax to 60 ppm, you can possible go somewhat lower, and can run the pool successfully over the summer.

[matthew64]

Ok so a 24hr chlorine test my results were:

6/7/12 7pm
FC - 21.5
CC 1.5
pH - 7.2

brushed the pool because the pink algae was returning (see below)

6/8/12 7am
FC 21.5
CC - 1

6/8/12 7pm
FC 8
CC 2

So my chlorine loss (use) was 12 ppm in 12hrs! But its a complicated story. I was attempting to do this 24hr test several days ago and had gotten as far as checking 7pm and 7am (FC was around 20 unchanged overnight), but I then had a family emergency and had to go out of town and did not touch the pool for 36hrs. 36hrs later when I did check it the FC was 14! So it had only dropped 6ppm over the course of 2 sunny (these were all sunny days) days! BUT the pink algae had returned and so spent 2 hours scrubbing the pool (again) and got it up to 21.5ppm for my 7pm check. Today the FC is much lower, the pink algae maybe looks somewhat better after scrubbing and the bottom of the pool is cloudy. Most of the time the water is clear, smells chlorinated but not too powerful.

Its obvious that the pink algae is not inhibited by anything less than 20ppm.

The weight of the bromine tablets were 5lbs (total over a course of 2 weeks).

I feel like my pool has the plague!

[PoolDoc]

oh and I had a question about a product called "aquafinesse" several places claim this would really help with biofilm and thus pink slime. Anyone have an opinion of this product?

Here's their MSDS page: http://aquafinesseone.com/msds-2/ There's nothing special in their products!

Do the pool chart, and I'll look at this in more detail this afternoon:

Pool Chart Entry Form (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZSWc6M Q)
Pool Chart Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahjo2iDF0aJgdHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZS Wc)

Post when you've completed it, so I know to look back at this thread. I'm afraid you put enough bromine in to be a real problem. It certainly is enough to explain a high chlorine loss rate.

[matthew64]

chart is filled out.

I would agree about chlorine loss, but then again the loss was only 6ppm over the course of 2 sunny days! Only after I scrubbed the pink slime again did that next day the loss was greater (20 to 8) and the water was slightly cloudy that day after scrubbing.

[PoolDoc]

My bad on the chart -- still got to add better indexing.

Yeah, algal and bacterial 'goo' has a HUGE chlorine demand, that must be satisfied before you can make everything 'all better'. However, given your high CYA, the bromine may be helping more than it's hurting, since the bromine creates a larger 'active' halogen residual than you'd have otherwise.

Given that you have a vinyl pool, draining is not a practical option.

But you likely don't have 35K gal; I'd actually flagged that. Here's the calculation:
18 x 40 x 3.5 x 7.48 gal/cft = 18.8K gal (top 3.5' slice of your pool)
18 x 18 x (8-3.5)/2 x 7.48 = 5.4K gal (assumptions: break at 20'; hopper volume is 1/2 of a non-angled bottom - reasonable for most liner pools)
Total gallons = 24.3K gallons.

Still, that's a fairly large volume, and the bromine may not be a long term problem. If it is, you can do a fairly effective drain, if you buy an over sized winter cover. I'll explain how, if that becomes necessary.

[matthew64]

Thanks for the correction. The 35,000 gallon was a quote from the previous owner and I just never questioned it. Anyway so I guess just try to continue to keep it a high chlorine level (20ppm) for the foreseeable future and see how it goes. thanks for all the help.

[PoolDoc]

Actually, with the bromine present, it probably isn't necessary to keep the chlorine so high. The bromine creates a significant unstabilized halogen residual that is effective against biofilms like you have.

I'd let the chlorine drop, at least to 10 ppm, as soon as you've brushed all the 'pink algae' and seen no evidence of new growth.

[matthew64]

So I have been keeping the FC at around 20 (as high as 24) for several weeks now, have brushed and vacuumed the pool multiple times and yet the pink stuff still returns. it mostly appears as more dead particles on the bottom of the pool, but there is new formations on the walls. Im worried that Im creating the most chlorine resistant super bug ever.

[PoolDoc]

Hm-mmh.

My problem is that I have ZERO personal experience with pink algae (it's not actually algae), and very little information about what might be most effective. Complicating the issue is that it is an opportunistic biofilm community that's going to tend to stick around in cracks and crannies even after it's 'all gone'. So, you not only need to get rid of it, you're going to have to keep getting rid of it.

What do you want to do?

Option #1: I looked at your pool online (Google Maps has a very nice image of it!). Since you've got no steps, you can probably drain to 8" deep in the shallow end, without too much risk. That will give you about a 60% drain, reducing your CYA to ~140 ppm. Then you can refill and treat with high chlorine. You can also go to 60 ppm borates, which may, or may not help but will reduce your pool's susceptibility to true algae.

Option #2:Try chemicals till you find what will work. I suspect the cheap quat algaecide at Sams Club (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=117645) will work . . . if you add enough to make your pool soapy and THEN brush. You'd only be out $30, but your pool will be soapy and probably irritating to eyes for maybe 2 weeks. You could try polyquat (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/polyquat.html) which is more expensive, and may not penetrate the biofilm well, though it might help if used at the same time, as the other. You could use ammonium chloride (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0066XR60C/poolbooks), to produce monochloramine which penetrates biofilms MUCH better than regular chlorine . . . but monochloramine is irritating.


Honestly, if it won't bust your budget, I'd probably try this in your shoes:
Do a 50% drain (8" water in the shallowest stpot) and replace => $###?
Add 60 ppm borates (19 boxes of 20 mule team, plus maybe 6 gallons of muriatic acid => $100)
Add 1 pint of polyquat (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/polyquat.html) and brush every 3 days for 2 weeks (3 x $20 => $60)

If that doesn't work . . . you can move on to the foamy quat + monochloramine. But the first 3 steps are all stuff that's generally good for your pool, ANYHOW, so there's no waste. And, none of that will put your pool out of service, except for the time it takes to refill.

One BIG caution: do NOT do this if the ground around your pool is wet! If you're not sure, dig a post hole next to your pool. Let it stand overnight. You can drain to 1 foot ABOVE the highest water level in the hole.

[chem geek]

I'm unclear about something. The HTH Spa Non-Chlorine Oxidizer Tablets (http://www.poolgeek.com/HTH-Spa-Non-Chlorine-Oxidizer-Tablets-P7175.aspx) that were added are potassium monopersulfate (MPS), not bromine or bromide. I don't see where any bromine has been added to this pool. Bromine is often effective at killing pink algae and especially so in this situation since the CYA is so high that chlorine is simply not going to do the job (unless there is significant water dilution first to lower the CYA level). So adding some sodium bromide to the pool will, when activated by chlorine, produce bromine to kill the pink algae.

[PoolDoc]

I'm unclear about something. The HTH Spa Non-Chlorine Oxidizer Tablets (http://www.poolgeek.com/HTH-Spa-Non-Chlorine-Oxidizer-Tablets-P7175.aspx) that were added are potassium monopersulfate (MPS), not bromine or bromide.

@ Chem_Geek: Thanks for catching that, Chem_Geek. I didn't follow the link -- I just saw that they were tablets and assumed that it was bromine. So that's new info for me, that MPS is being formed into tablets. I see why he THOUGHT they were bromine: apparently they are intended as a MPS + bromide spa system, and are labeled that way.

@ Matthew: The fact that you do NOT have bromine means you can try that, as an option. Adding 1.5 ppm bromide to your pool -- 1/8 of a 2# bottle -- might help. If you want to try it, here are a couple of links:

Nava Chemicals 652072097 Yellow Algae Remover, 2-Pound Bottle (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004BFR2I8/) @ Amazon
Tropi Clear TC-4402-1 2-Pound Yellow Eliminator (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002SG7JAI/poolbooks) @ Amazon

It might be a good thing to try, even if you do drain. Adding the bromide before you drain might allow you to get a lot of it cleaned up, BEFORE you drain. Using it in conjunction with the foamy algaecide might well allow you to eradicate it, and then remove 50% of the algaecide and bromide, so it wouldn't take to so long to get rid of them otherwise.

[matthew64]

Thanks for the replies. I think I sent the wrong link for the bromine tablets. I am 99% sure that it was brominating tablets (at walmart). The link I sent looks similar, but I was looking for bromine specifically and Im really pretty sure thats what I bought and put in the pool (x3). Thanks for looking up my pool, its cool(and sort of creepy at the same time) you can do that on google maps (that picture was taken the day of my birthday last year). I do have steps in the lower left corner of the pool in the shallow end. does that effect if I can drain down to the deep end?

So Im pretty sure it was bromine tablets. So my options are try a foamy algaecide and maybe something like yellow out. I found pink treat which seems to be just really bromine. http://www.swimpool.com/PinkPoolAlgae-pinktreat.htm. We also have been having to add water every week because its been so hot. If I had to add it up its probably been maybe 2ft of water loss that may have brought the cya down some (havn't checked it recently)

[aylad]

Water loss due to evaporation won't bring your CYA down--it just concentrates the CYA in the remaining water in the pool until you refill, then the refill just dilutes it back to the same level it was before the evaporation. If you're wanting to bring the CYA down, it'll have to be done by water actually removed from the pool--splashout, backwashing, draining to waste, etc.

Janet

[matthew64]

Thanks for that piece of info. So can I safely drain half my pool even if I have steps into my shallow end? Also any thoughts on "Yellow Out" vs "Pink Treat"

[PoolDoc]

So long as the steps are fiberglass, and not liner covered. If the steps are liner covered, you can't drain at all.

[PoolDoc]

Yellow Out is ammonium chloride, which creates chloramines. I don't know what Pink Treat is, but most of United Chemical's products are sodium bromide + detergent type phosphates. Make sure you know what you're in for, before you use them!!