Moblaine's pool

[moblaine]

How can you test for ammonia?
I am also having a problem getting a free chlorine reading on my test strips and the pool store says everything looks fine but they're using strips, too. Was finally convinced to buy a test kit and I just ordered the Taylor K-2006 as recommended on this site. While awaiting delivery of the test kit, I'm looking for advice on whether to do anything or just wait. My pool's been open for 6 days and finally looks clean and clear after having been cloudy for several days. Since it looks good, I don't want to lose ground. I have a Frog in-line feeder that's been set on high for the past 3 days and still no chlorine reading. I should add that I've backwashed my DE filter 3x since opening and it's ready for it again but my husband wants to open it up and clean the filter and won't be home for a few nights. He thinks I can wait until the weekend to get the filter cleaned but I feel like a backwashing might help my problem (pressure needle show we are up 9 psi from where we started). I've also added about 18 gallons of shock over the course of 6 days (maybe should have done more at once instead of spreading out) and I used 3 lbs. Multi Magic Shock they sold me. Originally, my TC reading was showing purple on the strip while FC did not show anything but after the Multi Magic Shock, the TC and FC look equal. Any ideas to alleviate my stress?

[Watermom]

Until your good kit arrives (and good decision to order it, by the way!) can you pick up a cheap OTO/Phenol Red kit from Walmart?

What kind of shock are you using -- meaning ingredients, not product names. It may be that instead of having no chlorine, that you actually have really high chlorine that is bleaching out your test strips.

I'd suggest unhooking the Frog. Those things add copper to the water and you really don't want copper in your water. Contrary to popular belief, it is not chlorine that causes blonde hair to turn green, it is copper. It will also stain your pool's surface. How long have you been using it? If for awhile, you're probably going to want to have your water testing for metals.at a pool store. Just don't let them talk you into buying a bunch of stuff!

Please make a signature line. See the link in my signature below about how to do this. In it, put what type of pool you have, the volume, type and size of filter, size of pump and the fact that you have a Taylor kit on order. (Once it arrives, update to say you have it.)

BTW -- It is best to start your own thread instead of tacking on to the end of somebody else's thread. I have moved your post into its own thread.

[PoolDoc]

How can you test for ammonia?

This kit at Amazon *should* work, but we haven't verified that:

API Ammonia Test Kit (Salicylate) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002566TC/poolbooks)

To avoid losing ground, add 3 gallons, per 10K gallons of pool water, of PLAIN 6% household bleach each evening. Use an OTO kit to test before re-dosing; if you get a DARK yellow value in the evening, skip that dose.

Also, check your pH. If it's below 7.4, add 1 box of borax per 10K gallons of water, each evening as well. Continue till your pH is 7.4 or above. (Add slowly, via the skimmer, with your pump on.)

[moblaine]

Watermom, thanks for response. Will fix signature. Kit just arrived and I'm reading instructions so I can test when I get home.

I've had the Pool Frog for 7 years, ever since pool was opened with no green hair or staining. Is it the mineral reservoir that adds the copper? I have a copper test kit due to having a heater so keep an eye on it.

[moblaine]

Okay, got my first set of test results using the K-2006:
FC - 0.4
TC - 0.4
PH - 7.0
Alk - 100
Hardness - 130
CYA - 60

The pool water looks clean & clear with a little bit of brown stuff settling on bottom but the pollen is very high and collecting in skimmer sock.

PH result was lower than I anticipated -- Pool Store had said 7.4. Could the 7.0 PH be what is causing my lack of a chlorine reading? I've had short cycles of needing to backwash filter. I did end up backwashing on Thursday and already it needs it again (2 days later). Today we are opening up filter and cleaning everything then starting with a fresh batch of ZeoFiber.

Also - when "swirling" water in test kit tube, I assumed I should cap it so as not to lose any liquid. Should I try to avoid getting liquid on cap and simply "swirl" or is it okay to swirl it a lot?

[PoolDoc]

Hi Moblaine;

I put your test results in the spreadsheet visible at the 2nd link below. If you would, enter new results in the form at the first link. That will make it easier for us to keep up. If you do a set tomorrow, please include copper levels.


Pool History Form (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHJoYzNpNzB6REpIMXlSYVJlVnFORkE6M A)
Pool History Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahjo2iDF0aJgdHJoYzNpNzB6REpIMXlSYVJlVnFOR kE)

Regarding your pH, with most forms of chlorine, the pH will DROP as the chlorine is used up. I don't know if that's the case in your pool, or not. However, a fairly low pH is desirable while cleaning up copper.

But, I'm not clear: do you want to continue using the Frog product? If you don't mind the possible side effects, the copper does NOT hurt anything, sanitation wise, and it is algaecidal. The problem is, it is NOT a sanitizer, and you have to maintain higher chlorine levels than suggested, in order to maintain a sanitized pool.

[moblaine]

I'm new at this forum and wasn't sure but I think you wanted me to fill out those forms? When I open the Pool History Results it's mostly filled out so I filled out the Pool History Form. Let me know if I failed to do something I should have. Thanks for any help.

[moblaine]

Hi Ben, I will re-test tomorrow and add results. I tested for copper today and had none so will add those results to the chart.

Can you explain to me - Do I need to worry about the copper/Ph thing if I don't seem to have a copper problem?

Also, I am confused about the Frog question - are we both talking about the products from King Tech? A friend of my husband's installed our pool (he's in the installation business but doesn't sell chemicals). He has us using the same things he uses. Every year I insert a new Mineral Reservoir into the Frog but instead of paying an arm & a leg for their Bac Pacs, I just cut the bottom off and fill them with 1" or 3" tri-chlor tabs. What are the side effects you mention? Wouldn't the tri-chlor tabs BE a sanitizer? I apologize if I'm being slow to catch on here, it can be overwhelming. Thanks for your help.

[PoolDoc]

Yeah, I entered the results you'd listed in post #5 above; if you could, please enter new results as you get them.

As far as being new -- everyone's new to this. It's something that just became possible, but that I've wanted to be able to do for a long time. I've just started setting up the spread sheets.

[PoolDoc]

Can you explain to me - Do I need to worry about the copper/Ph thing if I don't seem to have a copper problem?

No. If you have 0.0 ppm copper, it's not an issue.


Also, I am confused about the Frog question - are we both talking about the products from King Tech? A friend of my husband's installed our pool (he's in the installation business but doesn't sell chemicals). He has us using the same things he uses. Every year I insert a new Mineral Reservoir into the Frog but instead of paying an arm & a leg for their Bac Pacs, I just cut the bottom off and fill them with 1" or 3" tri-chlor tabs. What are the side effects you mention? Wouldn't the tri-chlor tabs BE a sanitizer?

:D You're not 'using' the Frog, your 'abusing' it!:p

The mineral reservoir has copper in it. But I don't think it always succeeds at adding copper to the pool (in other words: it fails to work, which is good, but expensive).

You're sort of working around their program, using their feeder. You need to watch out for staining when you replace the mineral pack. However, if you are just using the plastic cartridge as a holder for your own tabs . . . why do you need a new one?

[moblaine]

No. If you have 0.0 ppm copper, it's not an issue.



:D You're not 'using' the Frog, your 'abusing' it!:p

The mineral reservoir has copper in it. But I don't think it always succeeds at adding copper to the pool (in other words: it fails to work, which is good, but expensive).

You're sort of working around their program, using their feeder. You need to watch out for staining when you replace the mineral pack. However, if you are just using the plastic cartridge as a holder for your own tabs . . . why do you need a new one?

Good point - what are the disadvantages to not using a mineral reservoir?

Also -you mentioned earlier adding "3 gallons, per 10K gallons of pool water, of PLAIN 6% household bleach each evening. Use an OTO kit to test before re-dosing; if you get a DARK yellow value in the evening, skip that dose."

Question: Is it put in during evening so that it can work without sunlight affecting it? I'm anxious to put it in now but can see the wisdom in waiting until tonight. It's supposed to rain heavily & possibly hail today, does that make a difference? Now that I have the K-2006 as opposed to using the OTO kit you mentioned, at what measurement do I stop putting in the 6% bleach? I just went to Wal-Mart & 2 large grocery stores in the nearest "city" and bought all the large containers of 6% bleach I could find. The price worked out to about $2/gallon but liquid chlorine can be bought with 12.5% from local hardware store for $4/gallon. Seems like the price is equal or am I missing something?

Borax was hard to find but I did locate 4 boxes at a grocery store. Is this also pertinent to add at night?

[BigDave]

You're right the 6% at $2.00/gallon and the 12.5% at $4.00/gallon are basically the same price per pound of chlorine. If you're clearing the shelves, there's no loss in clearing the 12.5% as well as the 6%. use the 12.5% first 'cause it won't last as long.

FWIW - my opinion - get rid of the Frog. At best, it will add copper which will cause you a problem later. Just say no to metal(mineral) algae control. It doesn't kill fecal coliform, only algae. We can eaisily see when algae gets out of control, but, butt bacteria you can't see, but, it'll make you really sick.

[aylad]

Borax was hard to find but I did locate 4 boxes at a grocery store. Is this also pertinent to add at night?

No, you can add Borax anytime you want...the sun doesn't break it down like it does the chlorine.

[moblaine]

Okay, now what? Last night I put in about 950 ounces of 6% household bleach as per Ben's advice (3 gallons per 10,000 gallons). Yesterday my FC was 0.4 and so was my CC. This morning, the results are not what I expected: FC 1.4 and CC 1.8. I anticipated CC would have been lower, not WAY higher. My current course of action will be to test tonight and put in a similar amount of bleach but wondered if there were any other recommendations.

[PoolDoc]

Hi Moblaine;

My apologies for posting the wrong links to your Pool History form and log; here are the correct ones. If you use them, it will make the pool clean-up more comprehensible, and will make it easier for us to help you.

Pool History Form (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHJoYzNpNzB6REpIMXlSYVJlVnFORkE6M A)
Pool History Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahjo2iDF0aJgdHJoYzNpNzB6REpIMXlSYVJlVnFOR kE)

Your dose -- 3 gal 6% per 10K gal -- is about 18 ppm. If you have TC=3.2 this AM, you still have some ferocious chlorine demand. There are only 2 ways to get rid of it, that I know about: drain & refill the pool, or chlorinate till it's gone.

Draining and refilling a vinyl pool requires professional help (and even then, old liners may not survive), OR a pool cover that's about 16' larger on all sides than the pool itself.

Chlorinating requires lots of unstabilized (bleach or cal hypo) chlorine. You can do a bucket test to get an idea how much, but knowing doesn't change anything. We've seen much more of this, this year, than any previous year. Probably something in the weather favored ammonia formation, but we really don't know what stabilizer-eating bacteria sometimes 'poop' nitrogen gas (harmless) and sometimes ammonia (what you've probably got).

The most efficient way to do this, is to add chlorine in the evening so all your loss is eating 'goo', rather than to sunlight. You can increase the dose to 4 gallons per 10K (10 gallons or 13 96oz jugs), but I wouldn't go higher lest you bleach your liner. You didn't report pH, but if it's below 7.6, add 2 - 3 boxes of borax (20 Mule Team, slowly, via the skimmer, pump ON) to raise the pH. The byproducts of oxidizing ammonia tend to be less noxious at a higher pH.

If you'll log your tests and doses in the spread sheet, it will be much clearer to you, what's happening.

[CarlD]

I would use the 10ml test for your FC and CC tests. Using the 25ml test will burn thru your reagents quickly and give you no addional useful info.
Carl

[moblaine]

For the past four nights, I've been adding 7.5 Gallons of 6% bleach each evening (or 4 gallons 12.5% liquid chlorine, depending on which I can get my hands on). The filter has been running 24 hours per day (pressure did not rise for days until today it went up 2 psi to 12) and the pool continues to look great. I test 1x or 2x per day with the K-2006 and while FC is hovering around 0.5 to 1.0 ppm, my CC has ranged from 1.0 to 1.8 during this time.

Will this cycle end? I was planning to increase the dosage slightly tonight (equivalent of 4 gallons/10,000 gallons) but wondered if I should be doing anything else. Also, is it normal for water to run a bit yellowish/greenish after pouring in all that bleach? Within a short time (like an hour), it's always back to blue.

any feedback appreciated.

[moblaine]

FWIW - my opinion - get rid of the Frog. At best, it will add copper which will cause you a problem later. Just say no to metal(mineral) algae control. It doesn't kill fecal coliform, only algae. We can eaisily see when algae gets out of control, but, butt bacteria you can't see, but, it'll make you really sick.

I contacted King Technology -- they tell me there is NO copper in their Mineral Reservoir. What do you make of that?

[PoolDoc]

I contacted King Technology -- they tell me there is NO copper in their Mineral Reservoir. What do you make of that?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LO4MyGud_mQ/T9DOl9zf4RI/AAAAAAAADKE/Og5Y75-vPtI/s800/Frog%2520minerals.jpg

image and quote from: http://www.kingtechnology.com/products/products-poolfrog.htm; archived 7Jun2012
The POOL FROG® Mineral Reservoir, which contains our EPA registered mineral formula and fits inside the Cycler. The minerals continually replenish themselves for added protection against bacteria, as well as keeping your pool's pH balanced by acting as a neutralizer. One Mineral Reservoir will last the full season or up to 6 months; use two reservoirs for year-round pools.

In the pool industry, the term "minerals" has been applied to three things: copper, silver, and zinc. At effective levels, copper kills algae, inhibits bacteria a little, and stains hair and pools. At effective levels, silver inhibits algae, kills some bacteria slowly, and stains pools gray or black. I've seen no evidence to date that zinc can be added to pools at levels that are effective at anything . . . but it doesn't stain.

I'm going to try to look up the King Tech EPA registration, but it may be they've revised it to remove copper (which stains) and silver (which stains and is expensive) and left zinc (which AFAIK does nothing much). This allows them to keep the claim "minerals", charge more, and still not stain your pool. Of course, if they DON'T have copper or silver, then the question would be, why replace the unit . . . EVER?

Ok, I found it (below) -- the mineral pack is 99.5% inert and 0.5% AgCl, silver chloride. Now, that's interesting: silver chloride is not likely to stain your pool, because it's so very insoluble in water. The "efficacy" data (last link below) is also very interesting: in a glaring typo, not only does it ID the effective agent as "0.5% sodium chloride" (salt) in the front of the report, the efficacy data appears to me to show that the added silver has ZERO effect on sanitation.

I'm going to ask Chem_Geek to take a look, and see if it looks as weird to him, as it does to me; he's much more familiar with EPA registration standards.

But it appears to me that, when you purchase a "mineral reservoir", you are buying a product that's almost perfectly safe to use . . . because it does almost nothing!

Just a caution: this discussion is likely to get into deep technical waters, resulting in this thread moving to the "China Shop" section.

===================================
Found it:
http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticides/f?p=PPLS:4:0::NO::: - King Tech index
http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticides/f?p=PPLS:102:::NO::P102_REG_NUM:53735-2 - Trichlor pack
http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticides/f?p=PPLS:8:0::NO::P8_PUID:463787 - Mineral reservoir
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/chem_search/cleared_reviews/csr_PC-013905_17-Oct-06_a.pdf - Efficacy data

All reports archived 07 June 2012 @ SwimmingPoolResearch

[PoolDoc]

Will this cycle end? I was planning to increase the dosage slightly tonight (equivalent of 4 gallons/10,000 gallons) but wondered if I should be doing anything else. Also, is it normal for water to run a bit yellowish/greenish after pouring in all that bleach? Within a short time (like an hour), it's always back to blue.

1. Yes, the cycle will end, but I don't know when. The only way I know to tell is to do a bucket test, with 20 - 50 ppm FC additions, and testing to see when the CC residuals in the bucket end.

2. Regarding the "yellowish/greenish" water. I don't know what that could be. As noted above, the "mineral pack" contains 99.5% of something "inert" but that doesn't mean it can't react with high chlorine. Can you take it out? It's not impossible that it's the source of your CCs. Are you pouring the chlorine in via the skimmer? If so, change to pouring directly into the pool, preferably in front of a return, so it will mix rapidly.

[chem geek]

The efficacy data says "The product must be used in conjunction with an EPA-registered source of chlorine (such as Chlorine Bac Pac)." They amended the registration for use in spas and bromine may be used in place of chlorine. They did their actual tests using the equivalent of what would occur from the use of bromine tabs (BCDMH) with their product with 1.3 ppm BCDMH with 2.6 ppb silver ions. The lab results supported use of the Spa Frog with bromine in the 0.9 to 2.25 ppm range. The EPA approved their label which has 0.5% silver chloride as the active ingredient to claim disinfection and the use of chlorine or bromine at 50% of the levels they would be used at by themselves. So instead of 1 ppm FC or 2 ppm bromine, it's 0.5 ppm FC or 1 ppm bromine. Note, however, that their claim that it reduces chlorine or bromine "use" by 50% is only true to the extent that ALL chlorine or bromine loss is from sources proportional to their level such as loss from sunlight or oxidation of fixed amounts of chemicals or surfaces. So IF one maintained a lower chlorine or bromine level in an outdoor residential pool, then one would use less chlorine or bromine. HOWEVER, silver ions (unlike copper ions) do not prevent algae growth so in practice one still needs to maintain a chlorine or bromine level sufficient to prevent such growth. For chlorine in an outdoor pool, this means an FC sufficient for the CYA level and that level will not be lowered at all by the presence of silver ions. The loss of chlorine or bromine from killing bacteria is too small to be measurable in test kits.

In a spa used every day or two, it is the bather load that determines the bulk of the chlorine or bromine usage, not the minimum level of chlorine or bromine that is to be maintained. So there will be no savings when using silver ion in a frequently used spa. In a spa used infrequently, once a week or less, then one can maintain a lower chlorine or bromine level so could get a modest amount of savings in usage.

So for an outdoor residential pool, there is no savings from using the Frog. If one wants to spend more to have "savings", then one can use an algicide. Copper ions would work to prevent algae, but can stain pool surfaces and turn blond hair greenish, but Polyquat 60 weekly would also work and let one have a lower FC target level relative to CYA and therefore save on chlorine. However, the cost of the Polyquat exceeds the savings in chlorine so this is not normally done. It only makes sense for those who want a lower active chlorine level in their pools and are willing to pay for that possibility.

By the way, silver ions can most certainly stain pool surfaces (mostly plaster) and they are very nasty black stains. This is why the silver ion level is kept so low and why pH also needs to be controlled so that it doesn't get too high.

I'm missing the point of the Pool Frog discussion in this thread. It doesn't provide any practical value so why is it being discussed? The only benefit of having the silver ions in the water is some level of "insurance" if the chlorine level gets to zero since uncontrolled bacterial growth will be somewhat inhibited. However, since it won't prevent algae growth it's really not that great insurance.

[BigDave]

Ah! so it's silver.

[PoolDoc]

I'm missing the point of the Pool Frog discussion in this thread. It doesn't provide any practical value so why is it being discussed? The only benefit of having the silver ions in the water is some level of "insurance" if the chlorine level gets to zero since uncontrolled bacterial growth will be somewhat inhibited. However, since it won't prevent algae growth it's really not that great insurance.

I believe Moblaine (the OP) has a Frog system, and was questioning some of our suggesting that he simply abandon it. As I understand it, he's cutting open the trichlor refills, so he can refill them manually himself, but is still buying and replacing the mineral component. I think he was uncomfortable with the suggesting that Pool Frog (or at least, the mineral component) "doesn't provide any practical value", and questioned our claims, based on the report from King that no copper was present.

[moblaine]

I don't know what that could be. As noted above, the "mineral pack" contains 99.5% of something "inert" but that doesn't mean it can't react with high chlorine. Can you take it out? It's not impossible that it's the source of your CCs. Are you pouring the chlorine in via the skimmer? If so, change to pouring directly into the pool, preferably in front of a return, so it will mix rapidly.

No, I'm pouring the liquid chlorine all around the pool each night, primarily in front of the return jets then I brush to move the water around. Yes, I can take the Mineral Reservoir out and see if things change but then I'm unable to use my tri-chlor tabs. Is this okay for a few days since in lieu of the tabs, I'd be super-chlorinating each evening? Or, am I asking for trouble that way?

[moblaine]

I did feel a bit like I was being attacked for using the Frog even though I've never had any problems. My pool person (a friend who installs and has one himself) set me up with it and it's worked great for 7 years. This year, my only problem was initially not getting any FC reading and now that I have my Taylor test kit, I'm seeing that my CC is higher than my FC and I attempting to correct that. Various people on this forum started talking about copper in my water but I have verified my copper test is showing no copper and we've NEVER had green hair. So, I did ask King Technology about the copper and they told me there was no copper but by using the mineral pack (which includes silver and limestone) I am able to operate at chlorine levels of 0.5 to 1 ppm but that if I removed the mineral reservoir then I need to do at least 3 ppm. So, I'd like to just resolve my 1.0 ppm CC problem and then worry about algaecide and copper and all that other stuff later. I thank you for all your research into that issue. I saw bucket test directions on this forum somewhere but cannot locate them now. Is there a link?

[PoolDoc]

You can run without the Frog, while you are adding the bleach.

I don't think the Frog is the problem, and it sounds like it may be a better than average trichlor feeder. You pay a premium for it, but if it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me.

It's unlikely that the Frog is actually helping you run lower chlorine levels. But, I looked at the patent, and I think it's not impossible -- but the mode of action is probably not what they say. However, my guess is the DE filter helps more.

But, I'm going to make a suggestion: instead of worrying about CC levels, concentrate on whether chlorine levels hold from 8PM to 8AM. If you lose more than 1 ppm of FC overnight., you probably STILL need to shock. If you do NOT, you can probably move on to just enjoying your pool

[moblaine]

Thanks Ben. That seems like a bit of good news. It's a little after 8 pm so I am going out right not to add 4 gallons of 12.5% liquid chlorine. When I get up in the morning, I will test but how will I know how much FC it held overnight?

[PoolDoc]

I'm posting too late (I assume).

But, you have to add, wait 1 hour, test, then test again in the AM. Try again tomorrow.

However, 4 gallons of 12% should raise your FC by 18 ppm. So, if your chlorine is below 10 ppm in the AM, you still have a problem. Unfortunately the problem could be stale bleach!

[moblaine]

I will try it tonight or tomorrow night. In earlier post you said "If you lose more than 1 ppm of FC overnight., you probably STILL need to shock. If you do NOT, you can probably move on to just enjoying your pool." whereas, in your most recent post, you mentioned the 12% raising FC by 18 ppm and whether chlorine is below 10 ppm in the morning. Am I to be concerned if I lose 1 ppm overnight or 8 ppm overnight? Can you clarify so I'm sure to understand?

If I add the 4 gallons of 12.% tonight, wait one hour and test and the FC is somewhere around 18 ppm, that means the liquid is still good and not stale? Then I test in the morning and if I'm below 10 ppm FC then I have a problem?

We are scheduled for some sunshine over the weekend and into next week after having quite a bit rain lately. Will sunshine possibly help me get rid of some of the chloramines?

[PoolDoc]

Am I to be concerned if I lose 1 ppm overnight or 8 ppm overnight? Can you clarify so I'm sure to understand?

1 ppm. It sounded like you did NOT have an 8PM test, with with to compare the 8AM test, but I was pretty sure if you added chlorine as you said, you would get at least 12 - 15 ppm in the pool . . . and if it dropped 2 - 5 by 8AM, you definitely had a problem.


If I add the 4 gallons of 12.% tonight, wait one hour and test and the FC is somewhere around 18 ppm, that means the liquid is still good and not stale?

Probably. If your pool gallon figure is correct (and mostly, they are not!).


Then I test in the morning and if I'm below 10 ppm FC then I have a problem?

Dose in the evening. Test 1 hour later. Retest in the AM. If the PM test is greater than the AM test by more than 2 ppm or more, you need to keep shocking at night. If the difference is 1 ppm or less, you can stop.


We are scheduled for some sunshine over the weekend and into next week after having quite a bit rain lately. Will sunshine possibly help me get rid of some of the chloramines?

Yes.

[moblaine]

At 7 p.m. tonight, I added 4 gallons of 12.5%. One hour later I tested using the Taylor K-2006 and got FC of 7.5 and CC of 2.0. Was a bit surprised that FC was only 7.5. Will test again around 7 a.m. and see what has changed. Any thoughts about the pool store liquid only bringing me up to 7.5 FC?

[PoolDoc]

Just looked for your pool chart entry, and didn't see it. If you would, please complete our new Pool Chart form -- it takes about 30 seconds, but will save much more than that. This is not the same as the chemistry log.

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

However, based on a 4 gal dose of 12% bleach, you'd expect about 18 ppm FC. The fact that you are showing 7.5 could mean:

You have ammonia in the pool which can be VERY rapidly oxidized by chlorine, consuming a lot of chlorine in the process, OR
You have old bleach, or bleach that was stored hot, and is now only about 5% bleach (quite common!), OR
Your pool store has fresh bleach, but is diluting it. (Very easy to do, if they have their own bleach tank.)

[moblaine]

I filled out the chart right before I did my post. It was a complete set of testing as or mid-day. For the evening test one hour after putting in 4 gallons 12.5%, I only did FC and CC so didn't enter it. Should I have?

[PoolDoc]

There are two charts; one that's a 1-time record of what your pool is like, equipment, dimensions and so forth. The other is a continuous record of your pool test results. You've done the pool test chart; not the pool equipment record.

[moblaine]

Gotcha. Chart is now filled in.
Just did my "within 2 hours of sunrise" test. Results were 1.0 FC and 0.5 CC. I liked your advice from the other day about maybe not worrying about CC any more and it has been low, around 0.5 or 1.0 ppm. But clearly something adverse is going on if FC fell from 7.5 to 1.0 ppm during the 12 overnight hours. My #1 concern at this point is to maintain sufficient FC to avoid algae. In prior years when I ran my Frog in-line feeder all the way open, I would have had higher FC readings than I do now (seems to hover between 0.4 to 1.0 ppm and only goes higher if I pour in 12.5% LC or 6% bleach). My fear is that without pouring in additional liquids, I am not maintaining a high enough FC level and not sure what I can do about that without resorting to nightly shocking. Driving my family crazy with this!

[moblaine]

Just wanted to update with good news. I did another 4 gallons of 12.5% liquid chlorine the other night and tested one hour later. Finally, I got a high chlorine reading (like 22 ppm). Within an hour of sunrise the next morning, I hadn't lost any FC. That was 3 days ago and I continue to get a chlorine reading so am very excited (today's FC is 3.5 ppm and CC is 0.5 ppm). It seems like I finally broke through and got rid of whatever was keeping me from keeping chlorine in the pool. Altogether, it took over 44 gallons of 12.5% LC this spring but the pool looks great, we're all swimming and life is good. Thanks for all the advice.

[PoolDoc]

Thanks for the update.

44 gallons of 12.5% -- that's about 160 ppm of chlorine in your pool, or more. Actually, you were on the list to contact. You reported 25K gallons, but also reported that you had a 16x32 IG pool, with a 3' shallow end and a 8' deep end. If those measurements are correct, your actual pool volume is either approximately 15,500 gallons OR 17,700 gallons, depending on whether the 3' & 8' measurements were POOL depth (deck to floor) or water depth. So, you may have added as much as 340 ppm FC!!!

Let's hope this winter doesn't reproduce the conditions that produced so many cases of ammonia-pooping bacteria this past winter.

[moblaine]

Oops, should be 16 x 36. Shallow end us 16 x 12 with depth of 3' and deep end is 16 x 24 but with slants from shallow end and on all sides forming a "hopper".