use of liquid chlorine in AG vinyl lined pool

[Darkside]

hey folks! i want to go the BBB route of keeping my pool in check, but i was told by the installer to NEVER use liquid chemicals as this could breakdown the liner and make it brittle. i mentioned this one time to the guy at leslies and he said it could make it brittle over time..... so, can i in-fact use store brand liquid bleach w/o causing damage to the vinyl liner?

untill now i have only used powder chemicals/shock and chlorine tabs from leslies but want to go BBB.

thanks in advance if you guys have mentioned this here, but the search function wont work.

[aylad]

You can, and most of us do, use store brand liquid bleach. That, and occasional trichlor tabs, are all I use. I replaced my first liner after the first 8 years my pool was in service, but the rip that started the replacement was well above the waterline, and had nothing to do with my water chemistry. Keep in mind that chlorine is chlorine is chlorine once you get it in the pool, no matter whether it's granulated, tab form, or liquid. The key is in adding the right amounts and keeping your pH where it needs to be.

If you go to a pool store and buy their "pool liquid chlorine", you're getting 12% sodium hypochlorite. Store brand bleach is 5.25 or 6% sodium hypochlorite. I've never been able yet to get a pool store employee to explain to me why the 12% is fine but the 6% will kill my liner? :)


Welcome to the forum!!

[Watermom]

Use the google search feature in Janet's signature above. (It is much better than the search feature that is part of the forum software.) Until your registration is complete, you'll need to logout to be able to see the search results.

[Darkside]

thanks for the replies! i recently purchased a taylor complete DPD kit from leslies, so i will run a full set of test's and post up the results. im picking up my BBB supplies tonight from walmart. ive had cloudy blue water for weeks now and dont know whats wrong, also i dont know if i need a new filter at this time.

[Watermom]

What you purchased was probably the Taylor K-2005. We suggest the Taylor K-2006. They are not the same thing. A DPD kit can only test chlorine levels to 5. A FAS-DPD (which is what the K-2006 is) can test chlorine levels up to about 50ppm. If you will pick up an add on kit called the K-1515, it will give you the FAS-DPD test that your kit does not have. See the test kit page in my signature for more about it.

[CarlD]

Pool store guys will make up all KINDS of crazy reasons why you shouldn't use bleach but spend a fortune on THEIR chlorine (even Liquid Chlorine 6% which is....bleach). Obviously, it's all about the money.

[Darkside]

i brought home 4 big jugs ( 1.42 gal ) of walmart brand bleach, 4 lbs of borax, and 4 lbs of baking soda. i poured 1.42 gal of bleach in last night and showed around 1.5 FC this morning. i tested today after work and show 0 FC...

ran a set of test's and heres what i got. watermom is correct i have a taylor K2005.

FC 0
TC 1
CC 0
PH under 70 ( appears to be a shade under ) base demand test was 6 drops.
ALK 70
CYA doesnt even go over 100 before the black dot disappears. the level is around half way between the bottom of the tube and 100. i tested CYA a few days back and it was around 70-80 and i have not drained off any water, or added stabilizer ( we have been getting rain ). i did the test twice today just to make sure i didnt mess it up the first time.

my pool is 18ft round AG with a vinyl liner. approx 7,500 gallons. pump is ( i think ) 1.5 HP on low, and 2 HP on high. filter is a waterway proclean 125 sq ft.

my pool is currently blue, but very cloudy since i just killed off a bunch of algae.... my filter is only 1 year old but im wondering if i need a new one?

[Watermom]

TC = FC + CC. Always. With a CYA of 70-80, you need to be shocking up to 20ppm. Adding 4 big jugs would have added 45ppm! Way too much! So, what is really happening in your pool is that you have so much chlorine, that you are probably bleaching out the DPD test and it appears that you have none!

Don't add anymore chlorine at this point. Use a dilution test to see if you can get a better reading. More about that here: Testing Without a Good Kit (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/how-to-test-your-pool-without-a-good-testkit.html )

Your pH test will be inaccurate with high chlorine. But, typically with high chlorine, you get a falsely high pH. So, I'm going to suggest going ahead and adding a half a box of Borax slowly to the skimmer while the pump is running.

You do not need a new filter, but your pump is WAY oversized for your small pool. We see this a lot. When a pump is too big, it forces stuff through the sand bed without filter it out well. Thus, it can take a long time to clear a pool.

Repost with the dilution test results. Also, if you can, order that K-1515 add-on kit I mentioned above.

[Darkside]

i had a CYA of 70-80 a few days ago, but today i dont even reach 100 before the black dot goes away. i didnt add all 4 jugs of bleach last night, just 1 jug. i will try the dilution test tomorrow after work. my pool doesnt have a strong chlorine odor at this time, actually very little chlorine odor. i will order the K-1515 tonight. my filter doesnt use sand its just a plain old cartridge filter. i was talking with my wife and the filter is actually two years old... oops. i never had a cloudy water problem before, so im going to order a new filter tonight just to rule that out. ill keep my current filter as a back up.

thanks for the help!

[Watermom]

Then, your CYA is over 100. Try the dilution test on this one, too, to try and see if you can't get a little closer reading. Dilution isn't super accurate, but better than nothing.
Why is your CYA climbing? Have you added some recently and if so, when and how much? Or are you using a stabilized form of chlorine such as trichlor tabs or dichlor shock powder?

Glad to hear you didn't add all that chlorine at once!

[Darkside]

i was able to do the chlorine dilution test and the color was a very light pink color. i used 1 part tap water and 1 part pool water and 5 drops each of R-001 and R-002.


Then, your CYA is over 100. Try the dilution test on this one, too, to try and see if you can't get a little closer reading. Dilution isn't super accurate, but better than nothing.
Why is your CYA climbing? Have you added some recently and if so, when and how much? Or are you using a stabilized form of chlorine such as trichlor tabs or dichlor shock powder?

Glad to hear you didn't add all that chlorine at once!

i was using both trichlor tabs and dichlor shock but have stopped using them. i will try the dillution CYA test and post back. i will need to get more R-0013 since i only have one bottle left.

i just ordered the K-1515 and a new filter, thanks again for the help!

[BigDave]

I'm concerned that you have no chlorine in your pool and you're in another algae fight. I'm sorry to disagree with you watermom.

If you read this before leaving work, please pick up a cheap OTO/pH test kit on your way home. It wil definitively tell you if you have lots or no chlorine; OTO doesn't bleach out. If your wall mart has the HTH 6-way kit (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668)), get that, it will supplement your K-2006 and give you an OTO kit as well.

If you have no FC, you need to get to shock level (25ppm+) and keep it there until you have less tham 1ppm loss of FC overnight and 0.5ppm or less CC.
Two big jugs (1.42gal) of 6% bleach should get you near 25ppm.

[Watermom]

When I advised not to add any more bleach at that point it was because I thought all 4 big jugs of bleach had been added at once. If that had been the case, the DPD test would have been bleached out and thus reading 0 chlorine. After I wrote that, the OP clarified in a later post that all the jugs were not added all at once.

[Darkside]

i added approx 2 lbs of borax this monring before work since it was low ( below 7.0 ) tested after work and PH is was 7.2 so i added the rest of the box or borax approx 2 more pounds and retested an hour later PH is now 7.6

FC is still 0. i also did a diluted CYA test by mixing 1 part tap water and 1 part pool water for the test. i put 7ml in the small bottle and then added 7ml of R-0013, mixed for 30 seconds and got a reading of 70 at the time the black dot disapeared. so this tells me i have high CYA right?

i just added 2 big jugs 2.84 gal total to the pool. i also noticed big brownish/green splothces on the pool floor so the battle goes on! water is still cloudy.

i will test FC after dinner if it doesnt start to down pour, and ill be heading to walmart later for more chlorine and borax. i know my local walmart doesnt have the kit bigdave mentioned at this time as i looked for it before picking up the K-2005 i just bought.

the good news is my K-1515 and filter shipped today! am i basically making my K-2005 a K-2006 by adding the K-1515?

[BigDave]

WM; you are (of course) absolutely right. I just noticed that Darkside had a legitimate FC of 0 and hadn't added any chlorine since. I hope I haven't offended you.

[Watermom]

With the addition of the K-1515, you will basically have the K-2006. :)

If you got a CYA reading of 70 with a 50:50 dilution, then that means your reading is actually 140. You will have to shock to 25 while you are fighting to clear your water and then once it is all cleared up, you'll have to be diligent about keeping your chlorine between 8-15 ALL the time or you'll be right back where you started!

Your pH is good at 7.6.

Run your pump 24/7 and clean the filter as needed. Hang in there!

EDIT to add ---- Can you please make a signature line which gives the type of pool, volume, type of filter, size of pump, any other equipment you have and also the type of test kits. That makes it easier for us to help instead of having to continually scroll back up looking for details about your pool. See the link in my signature for how to do so.

[Darkside]

just tested and FC is too high for my test to read, so i should measure again in the morning right? also PH is now 8.0

[Watermom]

If your chlorine is high, then your pH test will often read falsely high. Wait until the chlorine is below 5ppm to retest the pH.

Until your K-1515 arrives, you can force your test kit to read higher with the same dilution method I suggested for you to use to test your CYA earlier. Try that.

[Darkside]

ran a test this morning and FC is at 5. i went ahead and checked PH and its back down, looks like its right between 7.4 and 7.6

so, do i add chlorine this morning, or wait untill this evening? i assume i would add 2 more big jugs 1.42 gal each right?

[Watermom]

How does your water look? Still cloudy? Are you running the pump 24/7? Go ahead and add some more bleach. This evening after the sun is off the pool, check and see where you are chlorine-wise before adding more and then a couple hours after you add it, test again. Then, in the morning within 2 hours of sunrise, test again before adding more. We want to see if you are losing more than 1ppm overnight.

Also, just a reminder ---- Can you please make a signature line which gives the type of pool, volume, type of filter, size of pump, any other equipment you have and also the type of test kits. That makes it easier for us to help instead of having to continually scroll back up looking for details about your pool. See the link in my signature for how to do so. Thanks!

[Darkside]

yeah the water is still cloudy, but there has been some slight improvement. ive been running the pump 24/7 on low for a couple weeks now. ill run a test later before adding more bleach, but i wonder how much i should add?

ill go ahead and update my sig line when i post the test up later. thanks for the help!

EDIT by Watermom to merge two posts waiting in the moderation queue.

i forgot to ask this before sending the last reply. will the high doses of bleach help to "eat up" whats causing the cloudy water if whats causing it is dead floating algae? or can this only be removed by vacuming/filtering?

[Darkside]

tested about an hour ago as the sun is pretty much off my pool at around 5:30pm. FC is 1.5 to 2. measured PH for the heck of it and its 7.4

i added 1.42 gal of bleach at that time and will go back out in just a bit and do a dilution test. ill probably add another 1.42 gal at that time.

[aylad]

i forgot to ask this before sending the last reply. will the high doses of bleach help to "eat up" whats causing the cloudy water if whats causing it is dead floating algae? or can this only be removed by vacuming/filtering?

The chlorine you're adding to the pool will kill the algae, but filtering/vacuuming is what will remove it from the pool. Have only skimmed the whole thread, so don't know if they've mentioned it, but we usually recommend leaving your pump/filter running 24/7 during this process to help filter it all out. Make sure to clean your filter as your pressure indicates....

Janet

[Darkside]

aylad - my pump has been running 24/7 with no real increase in preassure. im at 2 PSI with the pump running on low. i have not cleaned the filter since last weekend and PSI is still at 2. i suspect i have a bad filter ( i should have one delivered this week ). there has been some more improvement in water clarity, but i sill cant see the bottom. water is blue.

i tested FC this morning and its over 5 but by how much i dont know ( still waiting on the K-1515 ) ill test again late in the day and post. yesterday morning i was between 1.5 and 2 FC so im holding much more overnight!

[Darkside]

just tested...

FC 5
TC 5 no change in color after adding the 5 drops of R-003, so is my TC 5 or 10? taylor kit says subtract FC from TC to get CC
PH 7.4
ALK 100

just added 1.42 gal of bleach, and ill add another 1.42 gal in a little while. i guess im on the right track here right? im holding more chlorine over night and loosing less during the day... i have only been adding the chlorine at night, but not during the day, am i doing this right?

i stopped by my local chemical "pusher" today. the only thing i bought was a 60ml bottle of R-0013 and a pack of those skimmer socks ive been reading about. i fitted two socks to my skimmer basket to see if this helps clear things up untill the new filter gets here. while there the "pusher" asked me if i had a sample of water that needed to be tested since he knows i was fighting algae, but i of coarse did not... then he asked if i "needed" anything and kinda winked at me. my answer was no. no shock, pucks, or algaecide? i said nope. a clarifier perhaps? again i said nope. i quickly paid for my reagent and socks and high tailed it out of there all the while looking over my shoulder to make sure no one was following me..... i almost caved, he almost had me when he said the word "clarifier" after all my water is still cloudy, i almost fell off the wagon my friends. i didnt have the heart to tell him that the jig is up! im off the hard stuff and on the BBB...!

[BigDave]

Hi,
My name is Darkside and I've been BBB for almost a week.

Hi Darkside!

[Darkside]

got my K-1515A today!

so do i do the .2 or .5 test to read up to around 25/30ppm since thats what im shocking up to.

[Darkside]

went ahead and played with my new chemistry set.

using the K-1515 i tested a 10 ml sample. 2 spoons of R-0870 powder made the sample turn bright pink. 19 drops of R-0870 made the sample go from pink to clear. so, 19 x .5 = 9.5ppm FC right? i moved to step 5 and added 5 drops of R-0003 and sample didnt turn pink, so i didnt think i could move to step 6 since step 6 changes the sample from pink, back to clear. im confued with this part of the test.

i also did a dilution test (4.5 ml tap water and 4.5 ml pool water) with the K-2005 DPD and it also comes out to 10ppm FC.

PH is still 7.4 so, i added a couple of my "butter container scoops" that should get me back around 7.5-7.6 PH.

im going to add more chlorine tonight, and i assume ill keep adding the 2 big jugs right, also water is still cloudy as i brushed all the goop from the pool floor yesterday afternoon.

any ideas on whats up with the cloudy water? pump PSI is still 2 on low! cant wait to get the new filter! any ideas on why this cloudy water wont clear up?

thanks for any help folks!

[Watermom]

When you add the scoops of powder, if one scoop turns it pink, you don't need the second scoop. You are correct that it would be a FC reading of 9.5. If you add the drops of R-0003 and it stays clear, then you have no CC which is a good thing. So, you were right to stop at that point. Just use the 10 ml sample to save on your reagents.

Continue to keep the chlorine high. With that high CYA, 25ppm of chlorine is what you need. After you add the bleach this evening, wait an hour or so and test your chlorine. Then, tomorrow morning within two hours of sunrise, test the chlorine again. See how much chlorine you are losing overnight and report back. Continue to run your pump.

[Darkside]

even if 1 scoop produces a light link?

i seem to still be losing FC over night. last night i added chlorine, and took a measurment a little later and it was 20.5ppm. i then used the calculator and it said i needed 2 qrts 6 0z to get 25ppm, so i added that amount, checked later ( this was all late in the evening ) and i measured 19.5ppm. this morning i measured 15.5ppm, came home today and measured 10.5ppm. CC measured this afternoon is .5ppm

so a while ago i added 1 big jug and measured 19.5ppm. according to the calculator i need 2 qrts 3 cups to get 25ppm. ive added all this bleach in the last hour and a half or so, so ill test FC in just a bit.

i have been brushing the floor of the pool in the evening after adding my bleach.

the good news is that the filter came today. its a baleen filter, i actually thought i was ordering some other named filter but this is what i got. does anyone know if these are good filters? its seems to have a better filter medium vrs the orginal factory one. i noticed that when i installed it it took a litte effort to install it onto the tube at the bottom of the filter housing, i remember that the factory one used to fit nice and snug, but not any more... anyways while testing this afternoon after it was in there for about 2 hrs i seemed to already be able to see some improvement in clarity! i have the pump running on low.

[PoolDoc]

the good news is that the filter came today. its a baleen filter

:confused: :confused:

"Baleen" is whale teeth, more are less. What do you mean?

[CarlD]

One thing that concerns me is the use of dilution with tap water. Steam-distilled water should be available in your local supermarket and chain drug store-- people use it in such pedestrian items like old-fashioned steam irons. Tap water can contain all sorts of stuff including chlorine. So always use steam-distilled water for your dilution testing.

[Darkside]

PoolDoc - its says baleen filter on the package. i found the manufacture but dont wanna post up a link. i was just wondering if anyone heard of this model filter and if they had any thoughts. as i said it looks to be of better materials than the factory one.


CarlD - i hear ya 100%, but the taylor kit even says use tap water for dilution test. i did an FC dilution test with the K2006 kit and i measured .5ppm difference from the K-1515, so it seems the tap water didnt mess the test up, but ill go ahead and pick up some for future dilution test on my next chlorine run.

a few things going on here. i brought FC up to 23.5 last night. i tested this morning and had just a 2.5ppm drop to 21ppm, and it rained quite a bit over night so that may have diluted my water some. im not loosing much FC over night. i also measured CC this morning and its .5ppm or less. the new filter has been in for almost 24 hrs. the water looks really really clean, but its still cloudy! i have no visable algae on the floor of the pool.

i was reading a response from PoolDoc to another poster and PoolDoc asked them to list eveything they added to their pool in the last couple of months, this made me nervous since i have added all kinds of junk at the recomendation of the pool store. so here is a list of things ive used in the pool in the last couple of months, maybe this will help diag why the water is still cloudy ( i hope )

i dont have any of this left aqua chem "shock xtra blue" the site does not list ingredients but here is a link ( i used a bunch of this over time). http://www.walmart.com/ip/Aqua-Chemical-Shock-Xtra-Blue-1lb/17126412#Product+Reviews

also used from walmart - aqua chem "natural water clarifier" the bottle does not list ingredients but here is a link. i only used thos once about a month ago per the instructions on the bottle. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Aqua-Chem-Natural-Water-Clarifier/19795894

also from walmart arm and hammer "clear balance" active ingredient sodium bicarbonate 86.60% clarifier and other ingredients 13.40%

leslies 3" jumbo tabs active ingredient trichloro-s-triazinetrione ive used this since we got the pool a couple years ago

i dont have any of this left and the site doesnt list the ingredients ( maybe i cant find them ) ive also used this a bunch since we got the pool http://www.lesliespool.com/Home/Pool-Chemicals/Pool-Shock/12047.html

and finally, probably the mother of all screw ups recommended by the pool store guy a few weeks ago before i found this site.... "green to clean" this has been discussed here as i did some searching last night and found out that this is bad stuff.

last thing i should mention. i have a 5 gallon bucket attached under my stairs filled with golf ball sized river rocks to help weigh it down. i drilled a bunch of 1/2" holes in it to allow water to get in and around the rocks to prevent algae. i was using bags of sand at first but i was getting sand in the pool and the bags were trapping algae inside. could it be that the higher levels of chlorine are breaking down, or eating away at the rocks and causing cloudy water?

i feel like a knuckle head for never educating myself on the pool from day one! i have caused myself much aggrivation and money because of it! funny thing is the first two years were good, now all the crap chemicals have finally caught up with me.

the GOOD news is i have learned more about my pools water chemistry in the last week or two on here than i did in the last two years...

[PoolDoc]

Go ahead and post a link: I'd like to know what it is they are calling a "baleen filter".

Regarding dilution: I haven't checked what Taylor says, but here are the facts:
1. You MUST used distilled water when using dilution to extend the range on a chlorine test, because you have to dilute with some thing that (a) is chlorine free and (b) is chlorine DEMAND free. That rules out tap water (has chlorine) and bottled waters (may have chlorine demand), leaving distilled water as the option.

2. You MAY use tap water when using dilution with a CYA test, since tap water is always CYA free, except in very rare circumstances.

3. You MUST use distilled water when using dilution to perform a phenol red pH test on water with high chlorine; distilled water is the only readily available water that is free of all pH buffers.

Regarding Xtra blue -- it's a diluted dichlor with added copper. If you haven't had stains yet, you may be OK.

[Darkside]

i didnt order from these people. i ordered from amazon, and thought i was getting a unicel filter, though i may have misread something. read the area in the center of the page in blue. http://www.rjfiltration.com/

everything you said makes sense about the distilled water so i will get some to have on hand. no stains from the xtra blue, and i used plenty of it. so, the green to clean should not cause me problems, or cloudiness? i only used 1 pound and followed the directions by adding shock after.

[Darkside]

the pool is looking much nicer today. i can actually make out the swirly designes at the bottom of the liner! i cleaned out the filter today and a bunch of white/milky water was coming out. ive been brushing, or vacuming every afternoon. yesterday after vacuming i decided to leave the poll and vacume in the pool with the vacume head upside down on the floor. i left the poll to lay against the side. also, i left the vacume on the opposite side of the pool as the return is facing the flow of water, i figured this may help pull water from the bottom of the pool through the filter. it may have helped as i noticed a big difference this morning vs yesterday afternoon. PH is right at 7.4 - 7.5 and i have kept FC over 10.5 CC is at .5 or less

we just MIGHT be able to use the pool this weekend for the first time this season! once i get this all cleared up i may drain off some water to get my CYA down around 80-90

[Watermom]

Sounds like you are definitely making progress!

[BigDave]

...yesterday after vacuming i decided to leave the poll and vacume in the pool with the vacume head upside down on the floor. i left the poll to lay against the side. also, i left the vacume on the opposite side of the pool as the return is facing the flow of water, i figured this may help pull water from the bottom of the pool through the filter...I love it - homemade main drain.

[Darkside]

it worked like a charm BigDave! i ran this set up over night two nights in a row after vacuming and it cut the cloudiness in half! ive been running the pump on low since my pump is a monster on high... but seems to be clearing up on low just fine.

we got ALOT of rain the past few days. we got so much rain yesterday ( couple inches at least ) that the water level was above the top of the skimmer .rather than drain off water i left it alone. i thought for a second.... i realized that with the water below the top of the skimmer im only pulling water from the top 2 inches or so DUH. with the water over the top of the skimmer i noticed much more water flowing into the skimmer. its as if the water WANTS to go through the skimmer rather that be pulled through the skimmer. so this is a way to move MUCH more water through the skimmer/filter vs running the pump on high and blowing all the dead algae etc through the filter and back into the pool. this seems to have improved the clarity even more since yesterday. my wife was impressed this morning at how well the pool and water look.

i hope all this makes sense. at the rate im going i expect to be crystal clear in another 2-3 days tops!

when we started geeting all the rain i got a bit nervous as rain has caused me problems in the past, mainly throwing off my chemistry by diluting the water. testing with strips wasnt helping the situation. now with a proper test kit the rain IMO is a non issue from here on out! tested just a bit ago and the numbers are as follows...

FC 12.5
CC 0
PH 7.4
TA IS 110

everything is where i want it to be. the only concern i have is TA is up about 10ppm from a week ago. is there a reason my TA is creeping up? im guessing a TA of 110 is OK for now, but what happens if it keeps trending up? from what im reading swimming and splashing will bring this down right? dont wanna use chemicals/acid if i dont need to to lower it.

a huge thanks for everyones help! you guys rock!

[aylad]

A TA of 110 is fine. If it keeps trending up, you might find that your pH doesn't stay as stable. If that happens, the steps to lower it are listed here http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html

[Darkside]

my PH is staying pretty much right around 7.4/7.5 i havnt added borax in at least a few days and so it seems to be pretty stable for now. thanks!

[Darkside]

we used the pool for a few hours this morning! all i needed to do to get it ready was do a final vacume to clean up the dead beetle bodies. the water felt great even with an FC of 17ppm ( tested this morning ) and PH at 7.4/7.5, my wife is usually sensative to chemicals and such and i got zero complaintes about the water quality from her other than she felt it was a little cold at first. no red burning eyes or anything!

thanks again PF!

[PoolDoc]

Glad it's worked out for you!