Decided on AquaRite

[badabing]

Hi,
I'm a new user here, and went over the forums seeking information on Circupool review as I see they are well priced and fit my budget.

==================================================

PoolDoc Note:

I've split this thread into the ORIGINAL topic:

Looking-for-Circupool-Review (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?14757)
and the FINAL topic:

Decided-on-AquaRite (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16244)

This thread is the AquaRite thread, and most of the Circupool discussion has been deleted.

.
.
.

[PoolDoc]

Best unit? I don't know. I only have personal experience with the Pentair units, but it's my impression that they are NOT the best. PoolSean can't recommend his (by forum rules) but I do get the impression that a lot of people prefer the AutoPilot.

Size? Buy big, but make sure you can turn it down. SWCG life is a function of cell on-time. A unit that's 2x larger will be on 1/2 as much . . . but does NOT usually cost 2x as much. The only problems with a much over-sized unit is if you can't turn it low enough. HOWEVER, if you install the power supply with a PLUG-IN connection, you can put a plug in outdoor time clock between the power and the power supply, and that will allow you to turn the SWCG down as much as you like, if you buy a unit that isn't sufficiently adjustable.

[waterbear]

My recommendation would be a pool pilot with the RC-42 cell or R-52 cell or a Hayward/Goldline Auqarite with a T-15 cell. Both are proven, dependable units from majro companies with good track records. Personally I would stay away from the Zodiac units (which include Jandy since they are owned by Zodiac).
Pentair units have had problems in the past but my understanding is that they have solved their problems. I have no direct experience with them. WaterMaid units are also worth looking into. They are an Austrailian company but do have US distribution channels.

Just my 2 cents.

[badabing]

Amazing,
You guys are so responsive and informative,
I greatly appreciate it, it's rare to find this kind of responsivness with thorough answers.

I took a look at both products Pool Pilot and Aquarite. (will look at WaterMaid next)
Wow, RC52 is for pools upto 52,000 Gal, over five times the capacity of my pool, I understood going big was the recommendation, never thought going that big, and here I was thinking that going double the capacity would have been enough (the little I knew)

RC42, is for 42,000 Gal pools, and so is the T-15 cell and both are recommended, so it looks like 4x is still a very good multiple.

Just to be clear, if I get the Pool Pilot, I would still need to get What they call "Digital Power Supply" right?
http://www.autopilot.com/our-store.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=111&category_id=19
ouch another $927 on top of $1055

And same is true for Hayward,
I would need Aquarite http://www.hayward-pool.com/prd/In-Ground-Pool-Sanitization-Salt-Chlorination-Aqua-Rite-_10201_10551_13009_-1_13502_13502_I.htm
and T-Cell-15 http://www.hayward-pool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10201&catalogId=10551&productId=1016420
Although it looks like the T-Cell is cheaper than similar sized Autopilot.
Aquarite appers to be more or less similarly priced as "Digital Power Supply"

Would that be all that I need, besides the plumbing / wiring parts of course?

Would you have any recommendations of where to shop for good bargains?
budget has already been blown by few multiples :(

If it is a policy not to give out links, would anyone be kind enough to tell me what price range for the above would be considered a decent bargain?
I know manufacturer advertised prices are usually higher than the market value, and getting a ballpark figure would help me narrow it down.


Many thanks for all your assitance.

[waterbear]

If you buy the aquarite it will come with the cell. Just make sure the unit you get has the t-15 cell and not one of the smaller ones. I run a T-15 on my pool spa combo that combined is under 7k gallons and it works very well.

[badabing]

If you buy the aquarite it will come with the cell. Just make sure the unit you get has the t-15 cell and not one of the smaller ones. I run a T-15 on my pool spa combo that combined is under 7k gallons and it works very well.

Awesome thanks.

any hints as what price range would be considered a bargain and where to look for those?
thanks.

[PoolDoc]

Here are options:

Aqua-Rite In-Ground Chlorine Generator - up to 40K (http://www.amazon.com/Hayward-Aqua-Rite-In-Ground-Chlorine-Generator/dp/B002WKJ5ES/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks) -- Amazon, $1060 + $0 shipping

Aqua Rite In-Ground Chlorine Generator up to 40,000 (http://www.amazon.com/Aqua-Rite-In-Ground-Chlorine-Generator/dp/B000FN9Z26/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks) -- Amazon, $950 + $12 shipping

Goldline Controls Aqua Rite Salt Chlorination (http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-2387/Goldline-Controls-Aqua-Rite/Detail.bok) -- A1PoolParts, $1059 + $0 shipping

For comparison, here's an AutoPilot 40K pool unit:
AutoPilot 110/220-Volt Digital Chlorine Generator with Super Cell (http://www.amazon.com/AutoPilot-DIG2SC48SUS-220-Volt-Chlorine-Generator/dp/B002TSB05A/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks) -- Amazon, $1454 + $0 shipping

[badabing]

Thanks Ben,
I gather that should be a decent market price.

One last question (I promise ... I hope :) )
Goldline and Hayward are the same right?
if not then what are the differences and if one is recommended more over the other?

Thanks

[PoolDoc]

Goldline Controls (http://www.hayward-pool.com/prd/In-Ground-Pool-Goldline-Controls_10201_10551_15003_-1___I.htm)

Hayward® Industries, Inc., acquired Goldline Controls® in August 2004. The joining of Goldline and Hayward provides pool owners the first single source of the total pool management system, including pumps, filters, heaters, cleaners, lighting, salt chlorination and pool and spa automation. Goldline Controls continues to operate in North Kingstown, RI with a complete staff of engineering, operations and employees.

[badabing]

As properly guessed, I'm back with more questions.

If I buy this unit now, I won't have be able to power it on and run it before the warm season, and over here up north, it would be a while.
Many of the sellers they give limited time 15-30 days for a return on a defective product.
Is there anything I could do to test or check the unit without opening the pool? (I fear the answer is NO)

Also if I buy it online, does Hayward honor warranty?
In case seller says deal with the manufacturer?

Thanks

[PoolDoc]

Many of the sellers they give limited time 15-30 days for a return on a defective product.


I wouldn't buy it, till I was ready to use it. If you wait a month or so to install it, you won't likely get full replacement if DOA. I don't know specifically about Hayward handling warranties. In my case, I've usually purchased wholesale, so if it breaks, whether it's Pentair or Hayward , I still just take it back to my local SCP, and say "Here, it broke. Gimme my money back!"

You're not going to get that result from buying online. You aren't going to get (I don't think) fast in-season warranty response from the majors --they are swamped, too. I know that my local SCP tends to pile up difficult warranty stuff till August or September, when they've got more time to fight over it.

If you can find a trustworthy local seller or installer . . . you'll get much better response if something goes wrong. You're unlikely to be able to duplicate that online. I've never returned anything to Amazon, but I've heard they'll give you your money back, if you get it back to them AND if THEY sold it. But most of the SWCGs I liked to on Amazon were 3rd party sales, and I've heard mixed stories about those.

Bottom line: if you are are really worried about warranty, hunt for a trustworthy local, and pay the extra it takes to buy from him. In part, the money you save online is a trade-off for greater risk and less service.


Thanks Ben,
When I saw that website I became suspicious because the only brand you could buy was circupool. I came here to find some info and you did a great job. I did find out from this website poolproductreviewsmagazine.com that same guy owns the distribution company. This is a quote from that review, " This month I am reviewing a Salt Chlorine Generator System distributed in the U.S. by Pace Research Ltd, the parent company of PoolBids, in business since 1997." I also noticed the first article on circipool.com was written by a Donald Uhle, President of Discount salt pool not Ken. Also the 7 year warranty is prorated after the 1st year, scroll down to the bottom for Don's post. http://www.troublefreepool.com/hayward-vs-circupool-rj45-swg-t24532.html

I'd bet that someone in the Uhle clan also owns poolproductreviewsmagazine.com. It doesn't look like they are crooks, but it does look like they'd be pretty good selling used cars!

[badabing]

Thanks Ben
I appreciate your response, and I would tend to agree with you about going local, however the local distributors / shops here are the biggest crooks, horrible prices (it would cost me at least double that price) and terrible service, talk about used car salesman,
it's unbelievable how busy they are during the warm season, which by the way is way too short over here, they have no reason to increase their service level or lower their prices.
That's mainly why I wanted to shop online and install it myself.

You convinced me to wait till the swimming season and then buy (hope the prices won't go up during the warm season), so that at least I could test for DOI,
I know it's a gamble/risk, but I'm better off than going local.

I'm going to call Hayward Canada and see if they have any local recommendation that is competitive in prices and service.

Many thanks for your input.

[PoolDoc]

Unfortunately, life often presents us with two choices, neither of which is optimal. :(

[badabing]

I finally got AquaRite 40K with T-15 Cell installed and I have a concern / question.

After making sure I followed all instructions and recommendation,
when I connect the power to the unit.

for 30 seconds or so, the no-flow indicator flashes, and then it disappears, I'm assuming that this is normal until it kicks into detecting that there is flow (I'm merely mentioning this in case it has any bearing on the main issue which I'll describe next)

I set it to Auto, and the Generating led comes on and everything seems to be normal
I do the diagnostic test and see all the numbers in the normal range. (I have it set to generate between 25% - 30%)

However after some minutes (not exactly sure about the exact number)
if I run diagnostic again, I see that "Cell Current" is 0 instead of normal 4.50 to 7.80 amps (this was ok just some minutes ago :( )

Also the instant salinity shows -0 instead of 3100.
The software version I have is r1.58

Is the unit defective? or is it just not generating SALT all the time?

All the indicator LEDs seem normal, ie "power on" and "generating" properly lit.

I only have few more days to return the item in case this is defective.

If it has any relevance,
I connected the cell horizontally, with the flow switch right after the cell
The cell is connected on the return after the filter (I have no heater), with no valve or flow redirector.

Does the cell need to be perfectly leveled horizontal or vertical?

I just noticed that the flow switch wiring is on top in the illustrated pictures in the manual, I have them at the bottom, does that make a difference?
I do have the flow direction correctly installed.

Many thanks in advance.
Hope there's a user error somewhere and that I don't have to dismount and return the device.

===================================

One other thing to note is that if I switch from Auto to Super Chlorinate,
I see current and instant salinity, and it appears to operate normally,
switching back to Auto and current is back to zero, so is the instant chlorination,

Weird.

Thanks

[badabing]

I finally got AquaRite 40K with T-15 Cell installed and I have a concern / question.

Is the unit defective? or is it just not generating SALT all the time?


Does the cell need to be perfectly leveled horizontal or vertical?

I think I can answer my own question.
Digging further and observing the operation of the device, I'm convinced the system is operating as designed.
In that it appears that the percentage setting for the chlorine generation is based on time rather than power.
so if you want to generate 25%, then instead of the AQR reducing the power to generate less chlorine, it generates at 100% but only 25% of the time.
The manual and LED could have been clearer on this, why display generating when not generating chlorine?

I'm a little worried with this approach, .
I was operating it at 25% all day yesterday, and by end of the day, I had shock level choline in the pool.
I know I can reduce it further (Which I promptly did to 15%), but I'm concerned that when generating chlorine, it generates too much ie too concentrated in small bursts that it could effect the swimmers in the pool.

Are my concerns warranted?
what do others think?

I also reduced the pool pump operation, so now a timer that is connected to both pump and AQR shuts off between 8:00 PM and 6:00 PM
hope this would be enough to bring it to a good level

I was gradually bringing up the CYA to the recommended 80 (I'm at 50 now) but seeing how much chlorine I have at the end of the day, should I just leave it at 50?

Thanks

[PoolDoc]

I know I can reduce it further (Which I promptly did to 15%), but I'm concerned that when generating chlorine, it generates too much ie too concentrated in small bursts that it could effect the swimmers in the pool.

Are my concerns warranted?


It's not going to affect swimmers, especially with the higher CYA levels. It might affect swimwear.

Because I used to operate commercial pools with pumped industrial bleach feed, I worried about this issue on occasion, and even tested the chlorine level in the water returning to the pool, which was high. But it mixes and dilutes VERY rapidly. It's possible I put a bleach spot on someone's suit, but in 20 years of operating 10 - 30 large commercial (>100,000 gallons) pools, with hundreds of users daily at each pool, I never had a report of a problem. That doesn't prove there wasn't one, but it suggest that if it occurred (a) it wasn't common and (b) it wasn't too serious.

I've semi-seriously joked over the years, that if the chlorine in your pool is too high, you should just swim naked. But, it's true that skin is FAR less affected by chlorine than is Lycra swimwear and many dyes in plain nylon or polyester suits. That information came from my own observations and experience, not from scientific or medical literature. But this spring, I found that dermatologists have for years been prescribing something called "bleach baths" with patients soaking in a tub of water, with chlorine levels of 50 - 100 ppm -- and that this treatment is STILL currently used. (Google search for "bleach bath" (https://www.google.com/search?q=bleach+bath)). So, it turns out that there IS medical confirmation of my observations.

There is a fairly common scenario, that is outside the realm of polite conversation, but which could lead to some mild skin irritation and some serious swimsuit damage: using a pool return jet for masturbation. Over the years, I've often heard guys joke about this, and I can recall some comments made by some friends when I was a teen. And, there have been several cases of teens or men getting themselves 'caught' in a pool return that had the eyeball removed. I also once observed an adult woman using a pool return to masturbate, in a otherwise unoccupied pool (I'll try to convince you I wasn't perving: I'd had to make a service call, and came in the back entrance which required me to walk outside the natatorium tinted glass -- it was night; she couldn't see out, and normally there was no traffic on that walk even in day. It actually took me about an hour after I saw her, to work out what she was doing -- it looked strange, but I didn't immediately recognize what was going on.) Anyhow, in THAT scenario, some one could white-spot the groin area of their swim suit pretty noticeably, and could end up with some 'chapped' skin. Obviously, there are no statistics on how common this is; but it's certainly not uncommon.

Other than that situation, I don't think problems are likely.

I did cover the data I have on high chlorine effects on people, in this thread: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/forumdisplay.php?156

[badabing]

Thanks Ben for a prompt response that conforts me to know that there won't be any imminet danger to the swimmer.
I have young children that swim very frequently along their firends.

I further lowered the dial to 10% and reduced the pump operation by another hour

I could easily tell when the chlorine is generated as the water becomes cloudy (milky)
Special where the sun shines.

Has this been ever reported that during cholrine generation the water becoming cloudy?
If I observe closely the return jets, I could see whitish return stream.
I wonder if 40K Gallon SWG is too much for a 10K Gallon pool.

It's too bad that the cholorine generation power is time sliced instead of power.
Anyone has an idea how long each cycle is?
1hr?
2hrs?
Simply said (for a 25% setting example) does the AQR generate 15 minutes of choline and then sleep for 45 minutes?
or does it generate 30 minutes of chlorine and then sleep for 90 minutes?
I'd prefer shorter cycles (not that it can be changed) to minimize the concentrated injection effect.

one other thing i noticed, the Average salt measurement hasn't changed at all, even after resetting / recalibrating

It was stuck at 2800, I reset it to 2900 during a peak, and now it is stuck at 2900 even though the instant salt reading is around 2700 (which is only displayed when the unit is actually generating cholrine)

I know 2700 is low end of the chart and I should got up to 3200 PPM (recommended), but I'm a bit reluctant, as this will cause higher concentration of chroline generation (I can't beleive I'm worring for this instead of extending the life of the CELL)

Thanks

[waterbear]

Thanks Ben for a prompt response that conforts me to know that there won't be any imminet danger to the swimmer.
I have young children that swim very frequently along their firends.

I further lowered the dial to 10% and reduced the pump operation by another hour

I could easily tell when the chlorine is generated as the water becomes cloudy (milky)
That is most likely hydrogen bubbles being formed n the cell. This increases aeration of the water and can cause pH rise due to outgassing of CO2.
Special where the sun shines.

Has this been ever reported that during cholrine generation the water becoming cloudy?
If I observe closely the return jets, I could see whitish return stream.
Hydrogen bubbles are formed in the cell as chlorine is generated. This is normal. This is also what tends to cause pH to rise which is why you want to keep your TA at about 70 ppm and not higher. This is also why you want the CYA at maximim (80 ppm) so cell on time is minimized so there is less aeration from these bubbles. This is also why 50 ppm borate is useful in a salt pool to provide a secondary pH buffer that effectively keeps the pH at 7.7 to 7.8. This is also why you don't want to drop the pH below 7.6 and wait for it to climb above 7.8 before lowering it to about 7.6 again, particularly if not using borate.
I wonder if 40K Gallon SWG is too much for a 10K Gallon pool.
I have a Hayward 40k cell on a 65k pool and a 300 gal spa. My pool runs at 5% with a 9 hour pump run time on low speed and my spa runs at 4$ with a 45 minute run tine every day if I am not using it. It is NOT a problem at all. Stop worrying and enjoy your pool. Your advantate to running like this will be longer cell life and better pH stability because of less cell on time.
It's too bad that the cholorine generation power is time sliced instead of power.
Why? This is how they all operate and it works very well indeed, particularly when you understand how the unit affects water chemistry such as my reference above to outgassing of CO2.
Anyone has an idea how long each cycle is?
1hr?
2hrs?
Simply said (for a 25% setting example) does the AQR generate 15 minutes of choline and then sleep for 45 minutes?
or does it generate 30 minutes of chlorine and then sleep for 90 minutes?
Hayward uses a 100 minute cycle if I remember correctly so at 25% it is on for 25 minutes of every 100 minutes. It really is not something that you have to worry about. Just set the output percentage to maintain a FC level that is, at minimum 5% of your CYA (so for the recommended CYA of 80 ppm your minimum FC should be 4 ppm. I keep mine at 4-5 ppm and have not had any problems for years in a pool open year round.) IF you are worried aobut the chlorine level coming out of the return collect some water from teh return and test it. Then test some water a few inches away from the return. You will find that it is not as high as you are iimagining it is. Relax.

I'd prefer shorter cycles (not that it can be changed) to minimize the concentrated injection effect.
You are worrying about nothing. You were wondering above if the 40k cell was too big for a 10 k pool. If you had a smaller cell it would be on MORE and not less so you really have the best configuration on your pool to miniize the effect you are needlessly worrying about.
If you had an inline chlorinator, a bleach dosing pump. or any other kind of feed system you would have a similar effect The chlorine mixes very fast and it really is a non issue. Remember, the unit is only working when the pump is on. I have a two speed pump and run mine on low (when I had a one speed pump I ran it on high at abut 15% for 4 hours. Realize that if you have the recommended 80 ppm CYA in the water then most of the chlorine is chemically bound to the CYA as it is formed in the cell.
one other thing i noticed, the Average salt measurement hasn't changed at all, even after resetting / recalibrating

It was stuck at 2800, I reset it to 2900 during a peak, and now it is stuck at 2900 even though the instant salt reading is around 2700 (which is only displayed when the unit is actually generating cholrine)
Average salt is the salt over the time the unit is on. Instant salt is the salt level being measured at the moment and can change as the unit runs since it is reallly a measure of conductivity which can be affected by such things as water temperature which can change during the course of a day. They are often not the same. You want to go by the average salt reading.
I know 2700 is low end of the chart and I should got up to 3200 PPM (recommende, but I'm a bit reluctant, as this will cause higher concentration of chroline generation (I can't beleive I'm worring for this instead of extending the life of the CELL)
Higher salt will not cause more chlorine to generate. The cell will make the same amount throughout its operating range. It will just require more current flow which shortens cell life at lower salt levels. This is why the cell shuts off at low salt since the amount of current needed would cause damage. Get the salt up to 3200 ppm and keep it there.
Thanks

You are worrying about non issues instead of worrying about REAL issues with a salt pool which are:
1) pH control (which is best accomplished by: minimizing cell on time, keeping CYA at max, keeping TA low--70 ppm is good-- and adjusting CH if needed for plaster surfaces to keep water balanced, not dropping pH too low since the lower you put it the faster it rises--particularly when there is a source of aeration which you have seen your cell provides, adding borate to the water)
2) maximizing cell life (those suckers are EXPENSIVE to replace and they will eventually need to be replaced!) by oversizing the cell (which you have done), minimizing cell on time (see #1), keeping pH from going too high and thereby minimize scale formation in the cell (see #1), making sure salt is not at low end of recommended level nor too high (both are bad for the cell and neither has any effect on the amount of chlorine generated until they go too high or low and cause the unit to shut down to protect the cell)
3) preventing salt damage (common sense here. Hose things off every so often where the water splashes and dries and make sure that the equipment in your pool if ok fo ruse in a salt pool. Seal any natural rock every few years.)

[PoolDoc]

I'm splitting this thread into the ORIGINAL topic:

Looking-for-Circupool-Review (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?14757)
and the FINAL topic:

Decided-on-AquaRite (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16244)

This thread is the AquaRite thread, and most of the Circupool posts have been deleted.

[badabing]

You are worrying about non issues instead of worrying about REAL issues with a salt pool which are:
1) pH control (which is best accomplished by: minimizing cell on time, keeping CYA at max, keeping TA low--70 ppm is good-- and adjusting CH if needed for plaster surfaces to keep water balanced, not dropping pH too low since the lower you put it the faster it rises--particularly when there is a source of aeration which you have seen your cell provides, adding borate to the water)


Thanks waterbear, I appreciate your feedback.
I've read most posts about PH control, and so far so good, it's at 7.6, I also happen to have additional aeration as one of the return jets shoots up through a gadget and provides water spray / fall effect.
My CYA is currently at 50, should I shoot it up to 80 (which happens to be the recommended level by Hayward)?
I suppose at that point I should aim for FC of 6?
My TA is 70-80 range and I'm not touching it,
My SWG is currently set at 10% production (pump run 13 hours a day) and the chlorine level is not dropping but steady high.

Can you please tell me more about adding borate to the water?
Why is that recommended and what does it accomplish?
and in what quantities?

Also, is there anything I could do about the milky water when the cholrinator is generating chlorine?



2) maximizing cell life (those suckers are EXPENSIVE to replace and they will eventually need to be replaced!) by oversizing the cell (which you have done),


Yep, thankfully the good people here recomended oversizing before I bought into just the right size SWG.



minimizing cell on time (see #1), keeping pH from going too high and thereby minimize scale formation in the cell (see #1), making sure salt is not at low end of recommended level nor too high (both are bad for the cell and neither has any effect on the amount of chlorine generated until they go too high or low and cause the unit to shut down to protect the cell)


my salt level is now 3100, which is safely in the range.



3) preventing salt damage (common sense here. Hose things off every so often where the water splashes and dries and make sure that the equipment in your pool if ok fo ruse in a salt pool. Seal any natural rock every few years.)

Should I do anything about the cement pool border other than hosing it frequently?

Many thanks in advance.