Cloudy.. impatient

[chuck9997]

Maybe I am impatient.. and my common sense keeps saying just stay the course.. keep adding bleach. Anyway.. pool was pretty green 4 days ago.. Now on the 4th day off adding bleach and running pump 24/7. Water has turned (for the better) from farm pond green to an inviting blueish white. I am happy with the results.. but seems like it is taking along time this year. Water is cloudy, I am waiting for that "I can see the bottom" clear look. ( a few pics below)

I have added some stabilizer.

I am also using a skimmer sock in the basket.

any other suggestions?

todays readings:
FC 15ppm
CC just a trace .5
PH 6
CYA 15-20

http://www.hometownsitedesign.com/images/pool/201205poolprep1.jpg
http://www.hometownsitedesign.com/images/pool/201205poolprep2.jpg

and from last year (2011).. this is waht I am aiming for:
http://www.hometownsitedesign.com/images/pool/2011pool003.jpg

[Watermom]

Stay the course, but ...... please tell me your pH reading of 6.0 is a typo! If not, it is critical that you get it up above 7.0 ASAP! Readings below 7.0 are acidic and can damage your pool.

[chuck9997]

not a typo.. it may be closer to 6.8.. will PH read correct at shock level?

[Watermom]

No. Wait until the chlorine drops before retesting, but if it is below 7.0 now, go ahead and add some Borax now.

[sabres07]

Maybe I am impatient.. and my common sense keeps saying just stay the course.. keep adding bleach. Anyway.. pool was pretty green 4 days ago.. Now on the 4th day off adding bleach and running pump 24/7. Water has turned (for the better) from farm pond green to an inviting blueish white. I am happy with the results.. but seems like it is taking along time this year. Water is cloudy, I am waiting for that "I can see the bottom" clear look.



I feel your pain. My water looked exactly like your water a few days ago. I have been adding enormous amounts of chlorine to my pool for 3 days and I finally can just barely make out my center drain in the deep end. My plan is to stay the course, as has been suggested.

[aylad]

Just remember that it didn't get in that condition overnight, and it won't clear overnight...Patience!!!!

[chuck9997]

thanks everyone for confirming my thoughts.. btw.. ALK is only about 40 .. this will probably affect my pH.. and how much BORAX i need to add... I have added 4 pounds.. will check tomorrow morning. Should I be overly concerned about ALK in this pool. (above ground, vinyl)

[sunlove]

It will get better the longer you run the filter :) You've only been at it for 4 days. It could take weeks to get it totally clear....it will get there.

[chuck9997]

I hope someone will notice this thread again,.. and comment I am a bit concerned... Its been SHOCK level.. and adding bleach day and night for 10 or 11 days. STILL CLOUDY.. any other suggestions?
getting tired of spending $10 a day for bleach.

tonight:
todays readings:
FC 15ppm
CC just a trace .5
PH 7.2
CYA 30-40
ALK 80

I have done this for about 5 years.. and always get clear water by day 3 or 4.. what is the problem?

[BigDave]

You have measureable CC so you need to maintain shock level - there's still a fight in there. Have you measured how much FC you lose overnight? Is your filter pressure climbing? Have you had to backwash it? (only when pressure rises 8-10 above clean)

Don't know why this year is different, maybe the warm winter. Lots of people are opening with huge chlorine demand this year, likely from bioconversion of CYA to ammonia.

(is bioconversion a word?)

[chuck9997]

thanks for the response BigDave.. from last night lost 3ppm FC. Filter pressure is ok.. Through the process.. I have backwashed a couple of times.

I will stay with it..
raised back to 15ppm this AM
using 6% bleach (182 ounce jugs).. each should raise about 6ppm. Its a 24ft round AG pool. (about 14000 gallons)

So.. am I shooting for 0 CC? Would a slight CC reading (1ppm this morning) cause the cloudiness?

The water is pretty clean.. nice. I have been in the pool (even at shock level) to sweep, etc. Just not clear. I put the little robot car vacuum in yesterday... and could just barely see it on the bottom of the pool.

[BigDave]

Yep, the goal is 0 CC. We say less than 0.5ppm CC because that is the resolution of the Taylor FAS-DPD test with a 10ml sample.

Are you adding bleach to get to 15ppm and then it drifts below? Perhaps you should dose enough so the FC is at least 15ppm the next time you test.

CC doesn't cause cloudiness, it's probably dead algae. Did you backwash because pressure went up 8-10? Dirty filters filter better, avoid backwashing before you have to.

[chuck9997]

yes adding to get up to 15ppm.. actually with what I added this AM.. should be at about 17ppm - 18ppm. I will do my best.. its hard to babysit the pool... gotta go to work. My wife just doesn't know how to test, etc. She will add bleach for me.. but.. not taking any readings. I will have her add half a 182 ounce jug about every 3 hrs.. and hope for the best. I might be able to sneak away from work around noon and check the pool.

So the CC shouldn't make it cloudy? Wow.. wish I could get it clear.

thanks again.

[BigDave]

The filter should clear the cloud. If the filter pressure is not rising, let us know.
We need to get past the chlorine demand before we discuss anything else.
Patience...

[CarlD]

Ok, let me jump in here. What I'd like to see is you run the FC/CC test with the 25ml sample just once, and see if your CC now tests at <=.2ppm. If it does, then the 10ml <=.5ppm is leading you on a merry chase. Quite frankly, with white cloudy water and a CC of <=.2 and high FC, I'd say don't worry about the CC anymore.

I didn't see if your pool is a sand-filtered, but if it is, tray adding a little DE through the skimmer, just enough to raise the pressure one pound. What you have may be too fine for sand to catch. You could also try a slime bag.

Another tool is the only algaecide we recommend: Polyquat 60%. This can also function as a clarifier since I think you've killed your algae.

FC may well be dropping if you have a lot of sunlight, even with CYA=30-40ppm. I'm not convinced you have any algae left to metabolize. I'm currently boosting my own CYA, aiming for the 60-70 range where I intend to keep it and run higher FC levels.

Carl

[BigDave]

CarlD, Chuck9997's pool lost 3ppm FC last night and had 1ppm CC this morning. I think he's still got live algae.

[CarlD]

CarlD, Chuck9997's pool lost 3ppm FC last night and had 1ppm CC this morning. I think he's still got live algae.

Ok, I missed some of that. I would keep hammering it with bleach/LC for a few more days till the FC stabilizes and the CC drops.

[chuck9997]

thanks Carl and BigDave.. I was able to sneek outta work (YAY) and run home at noon.. After dosing the pool this AM.. the FC at noon-thirty was 19 and CC: 0.. still cloudy.. but clean (if ya know what I mean). The wife is gonna dump more bleach in at 3pm. I'm gonna keep the FC up then see if I am still losing FC in the morning.

I have may have some DE left.. I'll check.. meanwhile I am using a skimmer sock to help.

[chuck9997]

Measured 15ppm FC in pool last night (8pm), pool outta sunlight.. this morning (about 7:30am) had lost 2ppm FC. CC was 1. I can stay with it for the FC and CC readings.. but this cloudiness is really bugging me. I know my pool is clean.. just not pretty. Someone at work said add muriatic acid to solve the cloudy problem. I have never used it before.. so I am not sure.

Again.. this is my first year not having the pool crystal clear in 3 or 4 days (at most). I am well into week number 2.

[BigDave]

The last pH we saw from you was 7.2, up from less than 6.8. Don't add muriatic acid, it's job is to lower pH.

Did you add bleach this morning?

Stay the course, maintain shock level, test and dose as often as possible, filter 24/7.

[chuck9997]

OK.. but its getting hard to be patient. I have been looking at blueish white water for 9 days.. been shocking for 13 days. If it weren't for the wife.. I would be hiring a bulldozer to take care of this. LOL

by the way.. I also put a cup or so of DE in the sand filter last night.. it didn't spit out the return.. (i am thinking that's encouraging.. maybe my filter is ok).. but it also didn't clear the water overnight. I added a little more this morning.. then it was too much. so i backwashed and flushed all the DE out. Had to go to work and didn't have time to add any more DE.

[BigDave]

You can see the return?;)

It's always hard to be patient. Let's kill the algae then clean up the water.

[chuck9997]

yes.. I can see the return.. its only a few inches from the top. I can see a couple steps down into the pool.. probably 18-24 inches.

[Watermom]

I've asked Ben to pop onto this thread and see if he can think of anything else that might help.

[chuck9997]

tonight's readings:
FC 11ppm
CC .5ppm
PH 7.3-7.4
ALK 90
HARDNESS 100
CYA 30-40

I just now added 182 ounces of 6% bleach.. and put some more DE in the sand filter.

Day before yesterday I left the pump off over night to see if anything would settle to the bottom.. it didn't.

Still cloudy/blue.. looks inviting.. just not clear. Visibility is about 18inches down.

[BigDave]

Measure FC tonight (if you get this) now that your chlorine addition is mixed in. Measure again before the sun is on the pool. If you lose more than 1ppm FC and have less than 0.5ppm CC, maintain shock level for another day then let FC come down if there's no CC(less thsan 0.5) and less than 1 ppm FC loss overnight.

[chuck9997]

FC was 16 at 10pm. I will check in the morning.

[chuck9997]

this AM readings:

FC 15ppm
CC 0

water: still clean/cloudy. It seems to be a slight bit clearer.. but I'm not sure. It might be wishful thinking on my part. Anyway.. its isn't a big enough difference for anyone else to see.

[BigDave]

Awesome! Almost there ( with killing the algae ), keep shock level one more day, if you lose 1ppm FC or less tonight to tomorrow morning and still have 0.5ppm CC or less, you'll be done with the shock process and can let the FC drift back to normal for your CYA - between 3ppm and 6ppm FC for CYA 30-40. Don't let FC go below 3ppm.

Now, let's work on the cloudy. It's probably dead algae and has to be removed. Your filter seems to be having a hard time clearing it so let's talk about your filter / pump.

Please tell us model and size of your sand filter and model and size of your pump including model number / HP / SF of the motor.
Do you have a valve to throttle the output of the pump?
Has the pressure been rising?

[chuck9997]

thanks for all your help... I am just so frustrated with this.. I don't have the time (or mechanical ability) to start tearing apart the filter. I am not sure about the size and model of the filter. But I can tell you I have had the same sand filter for about 6 years (or more).. and this pump for at least 3 years.. and it has always worked. No problems eventually cleaning the water and having a clear pool. Not saying there isn't a problem now.. but I think I can rule out a pump and/or filter size problem.

It does have a valve on top for backwash, rinse, filter, etc.

Pressure has been rising and falling (with backwashes to clear too much DE)

This pool has been too easy for years.. and has spoiled me. Right now.. I hate it.

[BigDave]

Don't hate it, it's just having a little tantrum.

It seems that alot of people are having more trouble than usual this year and Ben has speculated that some oversize pump / undersize filter combinations are pushing the dead algea through the filter grinding it into bits too small to filter. These filter / pump combos may have been fine for years but this year appears to be exceptional.

Adding a little DE is a good idea, it should help capture smaller particles. The gotcha is: adding a layer of DE on top of the sand bed in a small sand filter turns it into an extremely small DE filter.

With the DE in, your filter pressure should be rising.

Do you have the ability to take the multiport valve off the filter to inpect the sand bed?

Have you considered CarlD's suggesstion of adding a dose of polyquat 60%? It can act as a clarifier as well as an algecide - possibly making the cloudy more filterable.

Watermom's comment below is right on. If you use polyquat, don't add it until we've confirmed that you lose 1ppm or less overnight and have 0.5ppm CC. Then keep a close eye on your FC and be sure to keep it above 3ppm as the polyquat will drop your FC.

You'll get there. We'll help.

[Watermom]

The Polyquat will make your chlorine level plummet, by the way.

Is it just me, or is this thread going in circles?

[BigDave]

Watermom,
Thanks for the reminder about polyquat and chlorine depletion - I knew I forgot something.
I don't think this thread is going in circles, chuck9997's pool lost 1ppm FC and had 0ppm CC for the first time last night. I've advised him to maintain shock level for one more day and test overnight FC loss and CC again tonight.
Since it seems he's finally got the algae licked, we've started talking about clearing the cloudy water.

[Watermom]

OK. Upon rereading the entire thing again, I guess it isn't going in circles as much as I thought. It just seemed to me that we told him the same things more than once. But, I guess not as much as I remembered. (Not a criticism towards you, Chuck, by the way.)

Sometimes I think we have threads where the same information and directions are given over and over but by different people. Repeating something that someone else has already said is just a waste of time, unproductive, and makes threads even longer than is necessary. Long threads are hard to manage because they require more and more time to wade through and that does nothing but make it harder to help.

[chuck9997]

I usually don't post much here.. sorry for the long thread. I will try and work this out myself and keep posts to a minimum. Thanks everyone for the info.

[Watermom]

Please don't think i was criticizing you. I was not. We are happy to help you! You know that. I guess Watermom needs to open mouth and insert foot. I seem to have offended you and I certainly didn't mean to.

[chuck9997]

Please don't think i was criticizing you. I was not. We are happy to help you! You know that. I guess Watermom needs to open mouth and insert foot. I seem to have offended you and I certainly didn't mean to.
I am cool.. no problem. I do tend too get to "chatty".

[Guppy]

I hope someone will notice this thread again,.. and comment I am a bit concerned... Its been SHOCK level.. and adding bleach day and night for 10 or 11 days. STILL CLOUDY.. any other suggestions?
getting tired of spending $10 a day for bleach.

tonight:
todays readings:
FC 15ppm
CC just a trace .5
PH 7.2
CYA 30-40
ALK 80

I have done this for about 5 years.. and always get clear water by day 3 or 4.. what is the problem?

Hi Chuck- It took me 3 weeks to get my pool clear. I've been following the teachings of this site for 6-7 years and last year was the first time I had issues with cloudy water over an extended period of time. It usually took me 3-4 days, like you, to get it clear by shocking and running the pump 24/7. I too believe the issue this year (at least for me) was the lack of winter (80 plus degrees in March), and a load of oak leaves in my pool (my neighbors monster oaks are coming down some night!). At any rate, you'll get there, just stay the course. Did I mention it took me THREE WEEKS to get my pool clear? Just hang in there.

[chuck9997]

Hi Chuck- It took me 3 weeks to get my pool clear. I've been following the teachings of this site for 6-7 years and last year was the first time I had issues with cloudy water over an extended period of time. It usually took me 3-4 days, like you, to get it clear by shocking and running the pump 24/7. I too believe the issue this year (at least for me) was the lack of winter (80 plus degrees in March), and a load of oak leaves in my pool (my neighbors monster oaks are coming down some night!). At any rate, you'll get there, just stay the course. Did I mention it took me THREE WEEKS to get my pool clear? Just hang in there.

very similar situation as myself.. thanks for responding. Do you mind telling me how it finally worked out? I am algae free and am letting the FC drift down a little. I have always been the kind of pool owner who ran the FC a little higher than needed.. probably just a mind game I play with myself. I am running the pump all the time.. have a skimmer sock in place and a little DE in the sand filter.

I really think the pool is clearing.. but its soooooo slow. did you use anything other than filtration? Any skimmer socks, DE, clarifiers?.. etc??

[BigDave]

I am algae free and am letting the FC drift down a little.
Great News!
Now filter filter filter.

[scootchu]

I just went through this and I know I might get bashed, but I added... flocculant. My water had been filtering for 2 weeks and I had been adding shock levels of Chlorine, but was still blue and cloudy. The floc worked and I vacuumed to waste. I had run out of DE for my sand filter and after purchasing more I have a crystal clear pool.

The pool mess was my own fault. I waited too long to cover in the Fall.

[sabres07]

The only comment I can add here is that you have to follow what they are saying to do TO THE LETTER. I was in your shoes about a week ago where my water was blue but cloudy. I was feeling impatient too but I stayed the course and followed the advice given here TO THE LETTER and I was rewarded with perfectly clear pool water. Keep at it!

[Guppy]

very similar situation as myself.. thanks for responding. Do you mind telling me how it finally worked out? I am algae free and am letting the FC drift down a little. I have always been the kind of pool owner who ran the FC a little higher than needed.. probably just a mind game I play with myself. I am running the pump all the time.. have a skimmer sock in place and a little DE in the sand filter.

I really think the pool is clearing.. but its soooooo slow. did you use anything other than filtration? Any skimmer socks, DE, clarifiers?.. etc??

Hi Chuck- I am crystal clear after 3 weeks of patiently following the this BBB protocol everyone is recommending to you. As you progress (stay the course) you will notice your pool slowly clearing until you are crystal clear. I now keep my stabilizer (Cyan) at ~40PPM, my FC at 6-8 PPM (once pool is fully clear), and then shock (20ppm) generally on Sunday night every other week or weekly, especially after heavy use. My pH hangs around 7.6-7.8 and I hit my pool with a half box of borax when my pH drops below 7.4. I like to run my pH on the higher side and have found that my pool seems to like it there as well. I don't use polyquat anymore, don't seem to need it, just bleach. Tons of great advice on this site, you"ll get there even though you think you won't. Oh yeah, I also used about 1/3 cup (based on an 8oz cup size) of DE in my sand filter, which helps clear the cloudiness, and I use the filter socks over my filter basket. That's it, good luck to you!

[chuck9997]

I can see the bottom of the pool.. not clear.. but I can see the bottom. Well enough to see it needs sweeping. I am glad for that.. it means the water is going in the right direction. Gonna raise the water level tonight by a couple of inches.. then get in the pool tomorrow and vacuum to waste. Glad I haven't added anything other than DE, so far.

Keeping FC around 6ppm
CC .5 or less
PH 7.4
CYA 30-40

[BigDave]

Great News! Thanks!

[chuck9997]

Raised the water level.. and vacuumed to waste Saturday morning. We actually enjoyed the pool Saturday afternoon. The pool is still cloudy. I can see the bottom pretty good.. and it is better than it was two weeks ago. All readings are in normal range (as posted above). Still using skimmer socks.

I will watch it for a few days and see if the water clears anymore. Seems I read somewhere that someone added POLYQUAT 60.. and it cleared the water. In fact .. I think I may have done that one year.. not sure. I thought PQ was a preventative?? Would it clear the water?

[BigDave]

CarlD recommend polyquat to you in this thread and I asked if you'd considered it. You've probably read about it elsewhere as well.

Polyquat is an algecide but works best to prevent rather that kill algae. Polyquat also can act as a clarifier and should help clear the water. Keep a close watch of your FC if you do decide to use polyquat. As Watermom pointed out: the polyquat will create a chlorine demand and you don't want to start another algae bloom.

[chuck9997]

CarlD recommend polyquat to you in this thread and I asked if you'd considered it. You've probably read about it elsewhere as well.

Polyquat is an algecide but works best to prevent rather that kill algae. Polyquat also can act as a clarifier and should help clear the water. Keep a close watch of your FC if you do decide to use polyquat. As Watermom pointed out: the polyquat will create a chlorine demand and you don't want to start another algae bloom.

OK.. thanks for all the help so far.. just updating. Water is clean.. but still cloudy. All readings have been remaining normal and steady.
I have found PLOYQUAT 60.. and bought a quart. If someone reads this tonight.. please let me know how much I need to add. (24ft round AG pool - approx 14000 gal, give or take) Meanwhile I will doa little searching. I suppose I should add POLYQ in front of the return?

[Watermom]

It's been a long time since I've used any polyquat so I had to look up the dosing information. What does it say on the label? I believe, unless it has changed, that the dosing is 9 oz. per 10,000 gallons of water. Please look at the label and see if that is correct and let me know. And yes, you can add it in front of the return. You also might want to put your filter on recirculate for awhile so it doesn't filter out so fast.

[chuck9997]

It's been a long time since I've used any polyquat so I had to look up the dosing information. What does it say on the label? I believe, unless it has changed, that the dosing is 9 oz. per 10,000 gallons of water. Please look at the label and see if that is correct and let me know. And yes, you can add it in front of the return. You also might want to put your filter on recirculate for awhile so it doesn't filter out so fast.

exactly right Watermom! I found it on here as well. the label also says about the same thing (depending on before or after algae dosage). I added 14 ounces in front of the return and set the filter to circulate. I'll check FC in the morning and bump it up some.