Water does not appear to be filtered very well

[leena]

Last year we bought a used 24'x4' aboveground pool with a sand filter.(our 1st pool) I spent all summer reading this forum and we seemed to have everything going good. At the end of the season we let the chemicals get unbalanced and had some pretty bad algae. I added lots of bleach, some shock and then a bottle of that stuff that causes the dead algae to sink to the bottom. I vacuumed to waste and everthing seemed good. However, several hours after vacuming there appears to be some debris left in the middle. This has been going on all month. When I get close to it with the vacuum it appears to "puff" into thin air and disappear. Once again after the water is left undisturbed for several hrs, it reappears in the middle. Looking closely at the water it doesnt appear as clean and clear as last summer. I mean it looks like clear water but with tiny particles in it, as if its not filtering everything out. When I backwash the water in the clear bottle doesnt look very dirty.......Suggestions?

[CarlD]

I am wondering if a dose of Polyquat will help it clump enough to be able to vacuum.

[PoolDoc]

Yes.

Get a manual vac head, pole, and hose like these at Amazon;

Poolmaster 27514 Classic Full View Triangular Vinyl Liner Vacuum (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007PZN5K/poolbooks)
Hydro Tools 8365 8- to 16-Foot Adjustable Fluted Premium Fluted Telescopic Pool Pole, White (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN//poolbooks)
Poolmaster 33430 Premium Vacuum Hose with Swivel Cuff, 30-Feet by 1-1/2-Inch (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005SS9EB0/poolbooks)

If you get them locally, be sure to get a pole that's long enough to reach to the middle of your pool and a hose that will reach to the ground, with 6' or 8' left over.

Once you have those, you can set up a siphon with the hose, to the ground. One trick: you'll need to put the draining end of the hose into a bucket or pail, so that it's submerged. Otherwise, with low flow -- like when the vacuum hits some sludge or the like -- you'll tend to lose the siphon.

You can use polyquat, or a floc to try to make it easier to settle and remove. However if those particles are ALREADY settling, it might not make any difference.

[leena]

ok I have the vacuum head and long pole with hose but I dont understand what you mean for me to do that is different from the way I currently vacuum to waste.? Im sorry, Im kinda "blonde".

What is polyquat? I have a bottle of something called cloudy water clarifier that says it combines small particles for easier filtering. Is that it?

======================================

you know what, I think I understand........."vacumming" the way you suggested would have a more gentle pull on the debris than it does with it hooked to the pump?. Therefore less disturbance to the debris, less a chance it will "puff into oblivion" before I suck it out?

[leena]

[PoolDoc]

If you have a "Waste" position on your filter, you can vacuum that way. But you'll blow out a lot of water fast. And if you try to vacuum on "Filter", you'll tend to push the fine particles THROUGH the filter and BACK INTO the pool.

[leena]

I got into the pool to feel of the debris that keeps settleing in the middle and I am now sure something is wrong with the filter........I could actually see bug body parts such as half of an ant,gnats, etc. Those things should be get filtered out, shouldnt they?

[PoolDoc]

What make you think they are going through the filter? Usually, they don't; they just settle to the bottom.

[leena]

this is getting worse. We left to go camping for three days, came back and pool had a slight green tint so I immediately added 1lb of shock n swim (calcium hypochlorite) and 3 gallons of 6% bleach. let the pump run all night. this morning it was almost no green but slightly cloudy, I tested using strips and it wouldnt even register any chlorine. So I added another lb of shock n swim and another 1.5 gallons of bleach. So now my pool is dirty AND cloudy. Running the filter and pump seems to be helping none. WE are going to take apart the sand filter and see if the gasket is going bad or if the sand has "tunneled" or if its low? I have no ideal about those things, its just something I read on here as possible problems for improper filtering? Also I intend to keep adding bleach keeping the chlorine level high for a few days?. Then scrub pool, vacuum to waste and if water still looks dirty, add DE powder to skimmer to see if it will help the sand filter catch smaller particles? Am I thinking on the right path?

oh and all last summer (our first) I used the tabs , was afraid of getting a cya(stabilizer?) build up so intended on using only bleach this year. When I tested on my strips this morning, the stabilizer was 0. I know I need that testing kit and I plan on ordering it from amazon this week.

ps its a 24'x52" above ground pool with a jacuzzi 1.5hp pump (no high or low speed) and a sand filter.

[leena]

oh and the bugs parts were on top of the water, the debris at the bottom was a little of everything. Last year I had to vacuum to waste very little. Last year the bugs went into the skimmer and never came back out so i assumed the sand filter was catching everything. The water stayed clean and clear all last year just with vacuuming thru the filter, this year its just coming back thru the filter when I vacuum so I have to keep vacuuming to waste which wastes alot of water........and I still have dirty water! .........scratching my head, something aint right..........

[PoolDoc]

Bug populations vary a lot from year to year.

I've run into this with commercial pool customers, where they will experience some sort of bug population explosion that covers the pool -- I can remember a couple of cases with some sort of midge like flyers -- and the pool person on the community board will be all, "Well this hasn't happened before; something must be wrong!" I've had to bring up on the pool deck, during the evening when these particular bugs were swarming, and let them stand there, swatting bugs, and eventually going, "What the @#$ are these things; I've never seen them before! Go ahead and show me what you have to show me, so we can get out of here!!". And, then I grin, and go, "I just did!".

I don't know that this is your case. But I do know the weather this winter has played havoc with bug populations. My wife and I walk in the Chickamauga Battlefield most evenings - have done for the past 10 years - and the ticks are totally out of control this year. We've removed as many as 50 from ourselves and our dog, during one walk!

It sounds like you may have THREE separate problems:

Your filter is not working properly.
You've got algae.
You've got bugs.

=> You need to fix your filter -- add sand, or repair?
=> You need to kill the algae -- more chlorine! Do NOT let the levels drop!
=> You'll have to put up with the bugs, till they get through doing their thing.

By the way, if you'll complete this form:

PF Pool Chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZSWc6M Q#gid=2)
it will make it easier for us to help you.

You can see the results here: Pool Chart Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZSWc6M Q#gid=0)

[leena]

here is where I am now. We flushed out the sand filter (took off top and stuck a water hose in it) and added a little sand(it was 9 inches from top, now it is 6). Vacuumed to waste using the method described with the end of the hose put into a 5 gallon bucket of water. This more gentle suction of water worked better about getting the fine particles of dead algae that was settling in middle of pool, rather than vacuuming with the pump. Added 3 more gallons of bleach. According to the strips the chlorine is high but the ph and alkalinity was low so I added a couple of cups of borax and baking soda. Water is much cleaner and mostly clear ( I can see easily to the bottom of pool but it seems ever so slightly cloudy). I still would like to add the de powder to see if it will help about filtering but I havent found any yet. Also havent got my Taylor k-2006 yet. Anything else I can do?

[leena]

I finally found some de powder and put 2 8oz cups of it in my skimmer. It immediately blew out thru the jet. Husband installed a valve between the pump and the sand filter but we not sure how to use it. Do we just set it to lessen the water flow by half, therefore not pushing the water thru the sand so fast? We have a 200lb sand filter with a 1.5hp pump. Do you think this is why it does not appear to be properly filtering?

[aylad]

It is probably just too strong a pump for the filter, pushing the stuff through it like you suggested. I would dial it down a bit and see if that doesn't help.

[leena]

the pump is not able to be adjusted. there is no high or low or anything like that..........its just plugged in and goes at one speed. I will close the valve he installed, halfway and see if that does anything.............

[pratzert]

Maybe try a Flocculant or Clarifier to help the particle clump and become larger to allow the filter to "catch" them ?

[PoolDoc]

@ pratzert: If you have experience with a particular brand that has worked well for you, please mention it. We're trying to determine which ones work, and which ones just cause trouble.

[pratzert]

Hi Ben,

I have to look when I get home to see if I still have the bottle of the stuff I used last.

But I've only ever had to use a clarifier twice since I've had the pool (12 years).

It did seem to work.....

[PoolDoc]

thanks.

[pratzert]

Well... I'm home and went on the search for the Clarifier I last used.

I found an old bottle of "Leslie's Ultra Bright".

It was open and 1/4 empty so that must be what I used.

I also found an unopened bottle of "Sparkle" clarifier whihc I bought from the old Eastern Manufacturing Co in Baltimore.

I don't know exactly how old the Clarifier is, but I am going to dump some in my 17K Galloin AGP and a few drops directly into the skimmer in hopes I can catch those small particles that seem to keep getting past my Cartridge system.

Last time I used it, it "seemed" to work/help... but in the end, who knows why my problem cleared up.

It's been many years ago......

BUT... B4 I spill any into the pool.... BEN.... what do you think ?

I've had to use about 10 boxes of 20 Mule team borax to get my pH up to 7.2. I think it's some residue from the Borax which keeps gathering on thge bottom of my pool.

I use Borax all the time to adjust the pH, but I have never, ever had to use so much of it as I did this time.

And I've never seen this sort of very fine particles that I can't keep out with vacuuming.

I guess I should be check out my cartridge, and maybe even replace it with a new one.

Tim

[Watermom]

Why don't you get a bucket of pool water and put a little of the clarifier in it and see if that works before you put in into your pool?

[pratzert]

That's a good idea....

I'll experiment with that tomorrow.

I'll also going to try to keep it stirred up so the filter can grab it easier.

[leena]

sigh, i am so frustrated! I closed the valve by what appears to be about half and the de powder is still shooting thru the sand filter. My pool is so dirty looking on the bottom, i have to vacuum to waste to get it out, going thru the filter appears to do nothing! When this pump has to be replaced, what size should I go with? I have a 200lb sand filter a 24'x 52" abouve ground pool (approx 13,000 galllons). My current filter is a jacuzzi 1.5hp.

Im gonna try putting panty hose over my skimmer basket and see if that catches some stuff........

[aylad]

I would think a 3/4 or maybe even a 1/2 HP pump would be plenty for this pool, but the equipment folks should chime in soon. When you run the filter, is your pressure rising at all?

Janet

[Watermom]

My previous AG pool was about the size of yours. I bought a 1/2 hp full-rated inground pump and it was plenty big enough. (Poconos -- one of the other moderators -- picked it out for me when I was in the market for a new one.) It is a Hayward Superpump. It is perfectly fine to use an inground pump on an AG pool.

Since that time, I have replaced my pool and now have a 27 ft. AG and I am still using that same pump and it is working just great with that pool as well.

Just my $0.02.

[leena]

well this story just keeps getting better..................

lately when I turn the pump on it would make a noise but not suck water. I would hit the housing with a rock and it would kick on and start pumping. We completely dumped all the sand out of the filter and replaced it. (last fall we had a horrible algea problem and i had read the comments about it possibly "shredding" the sand) anyways, we replaced all 200lbs of sand. Nothing. I had my son hold a knee high panty hose over the return jet as my husband vacuumed the pool. This worked amazingly well, we went thru 3 knee highs on 2 different days and a fistful size clump remained in the knee high hose on 2 occasions. Now it appears everything is cleaned out of the pool except that de powder that I put in there. After 2 days it always settles back on the bottom.

THEN TODAY MY 10 YEAR OLD SON TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF TO TURN ON THE PUMP! He didnt know about the pump freezing up and it needing to immediately be pounded with a rock to get the "fan or propellers" to turning. He just sat there and looked at it until it quit doing anything! Now it wont even turn on or make any sound. I assume it has burnt up the motor? ARRGGHHH!

[aylad]

Give it a little while to cool off and then try to turn it on. Sometimes it will try to turn until it trips whatever breaker is supplying it (have you checked the breaker to see if it's thrown?). If after a couple of hours the breaker is still on, and the pump won't turn on, it unfortunately looks like time for a new motor. Fortunately, you can probably just replace the motor and not the whole pump. On a good note, if you do have to replace it, you can put a smaller motor on it and save quite a bit of money and fix your filtration problems at the same time! :)


Janet

[BigDave]

...you can put a smaller motor on it and save...
I'm sorry to contradict, but...
You'll need a motor that can supply enough power for the impeller. So stick with a motor with at least the same HP rating (or at least the same HP x Service Factor) unless you change the impeller as well.
You can, and I'd recommend it, buy a two speed motor and only run the low speed. This will save energy and give you better filtration, downside is suction for skimming and vacuuming is less and the two speed motor will cost more.

[leena]

ok i have unplugged it and am letting it cool off, the housing was very hot. I checked the breaker, none were tripped. It says Jacuzzi on the lid but a sticker on the side says Magnetek 1.5HP so I am assuming that is the motor. Serial #BU4-10. Please make me feel better and tell me that the pump "freezing up" and having to be knocked loose was a sign that it was going down?......I am so aggravated at my son!!!!
So you can buy just motors for these pumps? Hmm, well the one we have is obviously too strong because the return jet is so powerful its almost painful, plus the suction was so strong that the vacuum would stick to the bottom of the pool while trying to vacuum. Not to mention that it shoots everything thru the filter
So can I get an opinion from a couple of people as to where to buy a new pump if thats the route I go. Is that Hayward Superpump 1/2HP a good one for me to consider? My pool is 52"x24' round above ground, (approx 13,000gallons) ,200lb sand filter.

[Watermom]

Here is an article on Pool Solutions you can read while you are waiting for others to reply. http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/above-ground-pool-problems.html

[leena]

I plugged the pump back up after letting it cool off all night. Nothing, not even a humming sound when I turn it on. Is it possible that something fixable has happened? or am I looking for a new pump? If so, please recommend a website to order from or a store in one of these areas: Chattanooga TN, Fort Payne AL, or Fort Oglethorpe GA. Thanks. Unless someone tells me different, guess I will go with a 1/2HP pump or the next smallest size that offers a hi/low setting.

[Watermom]

I have asked Ben to take a look at this thread to offer his recommendation.

[PoolDoc]

13K gallon => 8 hr turnover min = 27 gpm

21" sand filter 15 gpm/sft max flo for good filtration => (0.88' radius x 0.88 x 3.14) = 2.14 sft / 2.14 x 15 = 36 GPM

Possible options:
+ 1 HP 2 speed 240V Super Pump:
http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-842/Hayward-Super-Pump-2-dsh-speed/Detail.bok
(oversized on high, but run it on low except when backwashing or vacuuming - built in toggle switch)

+ 3/4 HP 2 speed 120V Pentair Whisperflo WDFS-3
http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-612/Pentair-Whisperflo-Pool-Pump/Detail.bok
(oversized on high, but run it on low except when backwashing or vacuuming -- requires time clock or external toggle switch)

+ Hayward SP15922S Power-Flo Matrix Above-Ground Pump 2-Speed (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00212NNU4/poolbooks) @ Amazon

That will give you a place to start shopping. The first two are in ground pool pumps, and will last longer, be more efficient, but cost 2x as much. Please note that the first pump is 240V only, which probably would require new wiring. My recommendation is that you NOT purchase a pump from a local store. Instead, if you do the installation yourself, buy online from someone reputable (like A1 or Amazon) with a DEFINITE physical return address. OR, if you hire it done, let your installer make the purchase from SCP (wholesaler) in Chattanooga or Atlanta. Your installer will get a price about as good as a pool store, but will have to stand behind it, if he bought and sold it. Otherwise, online prices will be substantially cheaper.

My choice, for your pool, if the budget is not a big issue is the 115V 2speed 3/4 HP Whisperflo. But, I'll as mas985 to look at this, and see if he has another recommendation.

[mas985]

I'm finding it hard to follow this thread and current desire of the OP. Replace motor, replace pump, replace pump and filter?

The cheapest solution is to replace the motor on your current pump. You should be able cross reference the motor number.

If you plan on the replacing the entire pump, then in order to recommend the correct size, I need to know the size of your current filter.

If you plan on replacing both the filter and pump, the I would recommend the Pentair PNSD0060DO2260 or PNSD0060DP2160 depending on the plug type you have.

[leena]

Summary: I think my pump is too large for my 200lb sand filter. Everything shoots thru the filter when vacuuming. I am currently dealing with the problem by holding knee high pantyhose over the return jet while someone else vacuums. This catches all the small stuff except the de powder. I am currently having problems with my pump "freezing up" and I have to pound the housing with a rock to start it pumping. I assume it is going down and I am looking to purchase and properly sized pump for 2 reason: 1. so that it will be able to filter properly using the 200lb sand filter, 2. to save on the electric bill.

NOte 1: When my husband tried to work on the above pump (that had quit working after our 10yr son turned it on but did not pound on the housing to get it started), he realized that it was wired into an OUTSIDE breaker box that went to the garage. Since I had checked the breaker box INSIDE the house, he checked the outside breaker box and yes the breaker was tripped! :) So with a little pounding the pump is now working again. For now.

Note 2: I am surprised at the difference between the prices of the Whisper Flow and the Hayward. The Hayward is half the price of the Whisper Flo. If I understand you right, however, you are saying the Whisper Flo is better quality and will last longer? We do have a budget but I dont want to skip quality (aka lasts longer?) for this reason....................And it looks like it would be the same price to replace just the motor on my current pump as to buy the smaller Hayward

[mas985]

It depends on which Hayward pump. Pump lines have different performance and quality. For example, the Hayward SuperPump is comparable to the Pentair SuperFlo but not the Whisperflo. The Hayward Tristar series are more comparable to the Whisperflo series.

But since you have AG pool, an IG pump is going to be overkill and probably way too powerful for your setup. I would stick with the Pentair Optiflo or Dynamo pump and a two speed 1 HP or lower.

[Watermom]

I have an inground pump on my AG pool. I like it much better than my old AG pump that I used to have. The pump pot is much easier to get open and it is self-priming. Poconos (Al) picked it out for me when I was in the market to replace my pump a few years back. Just my $0.02. I am not the pump guru by any means.

[leena]

so watermom, is the hayward super pump that you bought, it that the $500+ one? I see a hayward for that price but also one for $250+ but that one is AG and the $500+ is for IG? SO do they make the IG pumps with more quality parts? Because you can get the same HP for either one so thats not why it cost more............

[Watermom]

I'll look and see if I can find my receipt and get back to you in a bit.

[leena]

I finally got the Taylor-K2006 a few weeks ago and have been testing the chlorine mainly because I cant understand why i keep havin algea bloom. This is what happens. My water turns greenish, I raise the FC level for 3 to 5 days (between 7 to 10), then i turn off the pump for 2 to 3 days, the green settles to the bottom, since I cant get it to filter out thru my sand filter I have learned to vacuum using the 5 gallon bucket of water outside the pool. (this vacuums with a softer suction and doesnt swirl the algea as quickly from the bottom plus doesnt waste as much water) Everything gets to lookin good, then a few days later, its greenish again! Today the pool turned greenish and the FC was 7. It had been 9 two days ago. I didnt think that was very much of a chlorine drop if algea was present. So here is a complete test. Please advise me.

FC= 7
CC=0 (a few days ago the water turned a pale pale pink after 5 drops of R-oo3, today it stayed clear)
PH= 7.0
Alkalinity test (water was no longer green at 70, hot pink at 80, actual red at 100) so Im guessing 90-100?
CYA= dot started disappearing halfway between 40 and 30, so 35? I added a little more and it really disappeared, it wasnt quite to the 30 mark...so 32?

[aylad]

The shock level you have to attain to kill off algae is dependent on your CYA level. With a CYA level of 30-50 ppm, your shock level is 15 ppm of chlorine, which you need to attain and then maintain, by testing and adding more chlorine as needed to get back up above 15 ppm, as many times as possible during the day. Hold that level until the green completely clears and until you can go from sundown one night to sunup the next morning without losing more than 1 ppm of chlorine. After you get it all cleared up and have no overnight chlorine loss, then you need to maintain your chlorine levels above 3 ppm at all times to keep the algae from coming back.

I think the problem is that you were never completely killing it off to begin with, so it just grew back when you allowed the chlorine levels to come down.

[leena]

oh ok, thank you, is it better to add liquid chlorine when trying to raise the FC rather than bleach? I can get approx 3 gallons of 6% bleach for $5 or 1 gallon of 10% for $4.50. I have never used liquid chlorine and live 45 min from the nearest pool store so I have no ideal how much it costs or how strong it is....

[PoolDoc]

Some forms of algae can be very chlorine resistant. The easy solution is simply to raise chlorine levels to compensate. Do this:

1. Add 3 gallons of PLAIN 6% chlorine bleach in the late evening. Brush the algae AFTER adding the chlorine.
2. Test the following PM; if the chlorine is ABOVE 15 ppm, skip the dose. Otherwise, repeat add 2 gallons of bleach.
3. Brush every other evening, and continue with the 2 gallons, if under 15 ppm, EVERY evening, for 4 days after NO trace of algae and NO trace of green is left.
4. Do NOT turn the pump off during this period; clean the algae that won't filter AFTER 110% of the algae is LONG dead.

[leena]

update: that was my problem with the green coming back. Once I held the chlorine at 15ppm for several days, then vacuum to waste thru pump/filter. Then turn off pump for 24 hrs for the fine particles of algea to settle and vacuum to waste with a 5 gallon bucket, not thru the pump/filter. This was the end of my green battle! :) My pump is still running, we still bang on it with a rock if it wont turn on and it starts pumping.............However it still does not seem to filter out anything other than leaves or large bees. I still have to vacuum thru filter with someone holding pantyhose or a knee sock (or both) over the return to filter out everything except the small particles of dead algea. For the record, NOTHING will filter the tiny bits of green algea. I held every type of fabric I could think of over the return to try.......green water blew thru everything. Silk filtered it the best but the water had such a hard time getting thru the silk fast enough that it would fill up my fabric "bag" and eventually burst at the seams or if not then even my strong hubby couldnt hold it over the return. Even for as long as he could hold it on there, green water would seep out anyway. I ended up putting floc in the water, letting it filter for the day, then turning off pump for 2 days and then vacuum to waste with the 5 gallon bucket method. That was the cleanest and clearest I got my pool all year. Its still not crystal sparking clear but all the green is gone, you can easily see to the bottom. It has an over all clear look but when you look very closely or when a light is in it at night you can see tiny bits of "something" floating in the water. I would say it was pollen but last year (the first year) it never did this. I still think my pump is too strong for my filter and when this one goes out I plan on replacing it with a smaller one even though all the pool places still recommend one this size for my pool. Thanks for all the help, we finally got the pool under control though it was disheartning how many swimming days we lost, not to mention the higher water and electric bill with all the vacuuming to waste and refilling.......sigh, but now I am more experienced;)

[waterbear]

CYA scale is not linear so if it is near 30 ppm just call it 30 ppm. For the TA (and CH test) you want to keep adding drops until one more drop produces no more color change and then do not count that last drop. For example, if the test started changing at 7 drops, turns red at 10 and an 11th drop produces no further color change then don't count that 11th drop. Your TA would be 100 ppm. Also, just because an vinyl pool does not NEED calcium does not mean you do not need to test for it. High calcium levels can be problematic for ANY pool and evaporation will concentrate calcium over time. You probabloy don't need to test it more than once a month (unless the TA "mysteriously" drops or the pool get cloudy and it is not algae--however, in these cases it is usually too late and if you had known the CH before hand you could have taken corrective action BEFORE these problems).

AS far as filtering out living algae, you are correct. It cannot be filtered out. You have to kill it first.

As far as bleach vs. liquid chlorine, the only difference is (sometimes) the strength (and therefore, the amount needed to achieve a certain ppm of chlorine in the pool). Laundry bleach is sold in 3%, 5.25%, 6% and lately 8.25% strength. Pool chlorine (which many pool tech call "bleach" because it is!) is sold in 6%, 10% and 12.5 % strengths, with the last two most common. 10% is usually sold in one gallon jugs and often spends a lot of time sitting in a warehouse so it might not be 'full strength' when you buy it. 12.5% is usually sold in refillable carboys and, if bought from a supply that sell a lot, is usually fresh. In many parts of the country 12.5% pool chlorine is a more economical way to chlorinate than bleach is but you have to do the math first. Laundry bleach is usually going to be fresh if you buy it from a high volume retailer like Walmart. Both bleach and pool chlorine are exactly the same, sodium hypochlorite.