New Member, yucky pool

[Old Bat]

My husband and I have decided to resurrect our old cheapo above ground pool for another year. We are retired now and just want it to cool off in, but the costs of chemicals are so high and we always goof up the pool.

It's a 15" by 4" older one of those flexible wall ones. We bought a used Heyward DE filter instead of the little one that came with it. We've had this whole setup about 15 years.

I'm very interested in figuring out this BBB system. What we did other years was loads of work and we never seemed to keep up with it. And of course the winter cover shifted and it filled with leaves. Really nasty sludge mess, will be quite a project. Any advice, and no we can't afford a new one.

[PoolDoc]

Sorry, but the BBB method won't keep out leaves. ;) I'm curious though: what brand of pool is it that has lasted 15 years?

Anyhow, A 15' x 4' round pool should hold about 4,900 gallons. I think if your pool is well and truly slimed, it might be cheaper to dump and refill, than to clean up the mess.

If you water rates are high enough so that's not true, the place to start is by removing all the leaves. You don't really want to start adding chemicals till all the big gunk is gone. On a small pool like that, I would just use a pool pole and a leaf net, like this:

Decent consumer model:
Kem-Tek 555-6 Aluminum Framed Leaf Rake Pool and Spa Accessories (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LNOZ9/poolbooks)
Commercial grade model
Purity Pool Ultra-Lite 18-Inch Lightweight Professional Leaf Rake, Tuff Duty Model (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004VLB7E2/poolbooks)

Once you've got the leaves out, you'll need a testkit and some bleach. See the test kit info page - but look around at your local Walmarts: the HTH 6-way test kit (NOT: strips) is a great deal, where available.

You can get bleach -- PLAIN 6% bleach -- at Walmart, too.

[Old Bat]

Hello! Thanks for the reply. As far as the brand, I've no idea. They aren't sold anymore. It was before they came up with the Intex type pools. It was like $250. Of course we've replaced the liner a few times in those years. And bought the bigger pump. I believe I still have some of the literature in the mess of files, will look.

Yes, we have well water here, so we've decided to just empty it completely. Quite the mess, worse than usual. We replaced the liner last year and it already looks just horrible. Very hard water.

I think one of our problems is we don't always use stabilizer. And as far as bleach, do you just mean the regular laundry bleach? I've also seen an agricultural grade bleach at our Tractor Supply. Anyone familiar with that? Any better or worse?

I'm so excited to find this forum and this alternative method of pool care.

[PoolDoc]

+ PLAIN 6% laundry bleach -- let's save the ag bleach for later, once you've gotten the basics under control.

+ You need a good test kit. The *only* good testkit that's sometimes available locally is the HTH 6-way (kit, not strips!) avail at some Walmarts. Otherwise, get a cheapie local OTO / phenol red kit. You'll need the K2006 eventually, however. (Test kit info page link in my signature)

+ Hard well water is not a problem. Iron or other metals in the well water IS a problem. Let me know.

+ You cannot run an outdoor pool well without stabilizer, unless you are willing to work yourself to death.

[Old Bat]

This is nice to have somebody give me some direction in this.

Well we got it empty today except some bottom sludge. I started scrubbing. The stuff is coming off the bottom quite well. With a scrub brush and elbow grease and then I'm sucking up the sludge with a shop vac.

Having problems with the walls. I think we really screwed ourselves and put the liner in upside down. We have the smooth side to the inside, (the swimming side). And seem to be having more problems than ever. It looked like the right way as the seam edge is then to the outside. The entire walls have what I assume to be calcium deposits, but have never had this bad of problem before. Very rough, white. I've got some lime a way. But could I maybe uses like the thick toilet bowl cleaner?

I saw on another thread that you get a % of amazon sales through the links. I will definitely try to use that link for all my shopping on there. This site is wonderful and I'm so thankful to have someone to ask. Money is tight and I think we could save a lot this way.

For start up we do still have some Sock It left from last year. We could use that up first and then switch to bleach or not? Thanks so much for your help.

=================================

Hello again, So that I can order through Amazon and have it get here when ready to fill, could you give me an idea what I need to order? I'm going to town tomorrow to buy the small test kit for temporary and will order the better one. I'll also pick up bleach, and whatever else you say I need from WalMart.

So the manual that came with the pool says 5200 gals if dished. It is dug down quite a bit to about 5' at the center. We have well water, high calcium not too high of iron but some iron. We once had the pool turn bright green when we chlorinated. Pool store guy said it was copper. But that only happened one time. I don't understand either.

What should I buy for a stabilizer? I'm really dumb on stabilizers. But after reading more see that it's very important. I'm anxious to get filling but will be a while before it's all scrubbed. I have a messed up rotator cuff in my shoulder and can only scrub for so long. Also, just from your experience I would think we'd need to lower PH? I will test, but don't get to town every day so would like to have the stuff on hand if possible. Thanks again for helping.

[sunlove]

Hi! I thought I'd answer in case Ben isn't able to before you go to Walmart, because I just bought all this stuff a month ago to open my ag pool too. :)

== OTO test kit
== 1 jug of stabilizer (hth stabilizer & conditioner looks like this (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-Stabilizer-and-Conditioner/17043638))
== Several (as many as you feel like buying/storing at a time) gallons of plain unscented 6% bleach, store brand is fine
== 1 box of 20 mule team borax (laundry isle). This is in case you need to raise your ph. Not sure how much you'll actually need until you test your water's ph but might as well have it on hand.
== 1 box of baking soda. This is to raise alkalinity. Won't know how much, if any, you'll need until water is tested. (If your store has the hth 6-way test kit that Ben mentioned, get one of those)
== Acid. You won't know how much, if any, you'll need to add until you test your water's ph. It's something you'll need on hand though so you can go ahead and get a jug. You can either go with muriatic acid (liquid) or dry acid (at walmart it's called hth ph minus looks like this (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-pH-Minus/17043636) aka sodium bisulfate)

And that should be your pool supply staples for the season.

[PoolDoc]

Just finished reading through your posts:

1. Do not use the Sock-it now. It adds calcium and you're going to be trying to REMOVE calcium.

2. Can you do a white bucket test on your fill water?

Take a CLEAN 5 gallon white bucket;
fill it with 4 gallons of whatever water you'll use to fill the pool;
add 1/4 cup of bleach and 1/8 cup of baking soda; mix and cover;
wait 24 hours and inspect to see if there is any sediment on the bottom;
wait 24 more hours and inspect again.
Tell me what you find -- color and amount.


3. When you refill, lets use ONLY 3 chemicals: bleach, borax and muriatic acid.

Read the muriatic acid page, so you can handle it safely
Add 1 qt of bleach each evening
Use 20 Mule Team borax if the pH gets below 7.0 -- 1/4 box added slowly via the skimmer
Use muriatic acid if the pH gets above 7.6 -- about 1/4 of a gallon jug.

4. If you can buy 1 - 2 lbs of stabilizer at Walmart, do so. Put it in a sock, and hang it in front of a return. If you can't get it here, you can order it from Amazon:
Kem-Tek Stabilizer 4lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000LNY2AU/poolbooks)

[Old Bat]

Luckily for once I do have a clean bucket with a cover! Yes, I will get that started in the AM. This is so exciting!

Hopefully if both of us work on it we can get it all scrubbed down tomorrow and start filling soon. Will get all the stuff to start tomorrow. Oh, I hate WalMart on a Saturday! Always seems to be when I end up there though.

Thank you both for your help. Perhaps this year I will finally be able to enjoy our old pool instead of just endless drudgery and worrying about what it looks like on the Google map. (Yes, the last update of the map it is hideous). Oh the shame.

[Old Bat]

Well, rats. Went to order the Taylor 2006 test kit on Amazon. It said they had 1 left. But when I clicked it said not available. Added it to my wish list. I am still owed a Mother's Day present. When it comes in again I will collect on that. So will just have the little one to start with.

[Old Bat]

Hooray, We are on the way back. Just started it filling. Fingers crossed for the liner. But the liner is clean!

In the bucket where you said to put bleach and baking soda. The water has a white film on top. The water is colorless but quite cloudy. Don't know if this is telling anything. Will check it again tomorrow AM.

I'm really wondering how we ended up with so much calcium on the liner. I can understand at the water line, but all up and down and even some on the floor. I was quite an acidic adventure removing all that.

And I see that we should create a signature line with our specs. I will attempt it. Thanks much pool people!

[Old Bat]

2012.05.29.15:30
Anybody here? My bucket still cloudy with some slime accumulating on the bottom.

Pool is filled. Have not treated in any way. Not sure where to begin. I ended up with the 6 way test kit from Walmart. My husband bought it for me for a late Mother's Day. He didn't know it wasn't the same so this is what I have for now.

Tested the new water. PH is 7, Alkalinity is 490! Hardness is 590! I think these are quite alarming. Trying to figure out which thing I should do first.


2012.05.29.16:03

I'm not sure where my posts are going. I'm very confused about the pool AND the forum. I'm not able to post new threads yet. And the only way I see this thread is by clicking an old link in my email. Where are you Pool Doc? Thank you if you can help us.

[PoolDoc]

+ Your existing post is in this section: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/forumdisplay.php?176-Intex-type-Pool-Setup-amp-Operations

+ You can post in most of the other sections, but NOT in the "Getting Started" section, which is a 'gateway' section.

+ Regarding the forum; we've been slammed over the weekend. There was simply no way to keep up.

+ TA=490; CH=590? The white bucket test couldn't work -- adding backing soda that created a mess.

+ Let's try something different:
-- Test your fill water's (well water?) TA and CH, and report those.
-- Let me know if you have access to Arm & Hammer Washing Soda at Walmart. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RPuaiq5iJXU/T3of-mdQJ2I/AAAAAAAAB6w/xykYXJuKBGw/s288/A%2526H_washing_soda.jpg
-- Dump and rinse your bucket.

Added note: I called the head chemist at Kem-Tek; they've been using a process to remove excess calcium and alkalinity that's very close to the "lime softening" process used in the potable water treatment business. I think you are going to need it -- but he was out, and will be on vacation till Thursday.

[Old Bat]

That is our fill water. Yes I needed 49 drops of the alk titrate to turn it red and 59 drops of the hardness to turn it blue.


And also now I added some bleach, just to have some in there and the water turned green. Copper again?

They might have that washing soda. I bought 2 boxes 20 mule team and 4 lbs of regular baking soda, along with the stabilizer and bleach. Do I really have to do the bucket thing again?

[PoolDoc]

Do I really have to do the bucket thing again?

It's your pool; you don't have to do ANYTHING you don't want to do!

But, you've got some very difficult water to work with, for which there are no chemical 'magic wands'. Of course, the pool store will be HAPPY to sell you a wheel barrow load of possible magic wands, and let you test for a small $$$$ fee to see if they really work.

[Old Bat]

NO, I don't want to do anything the pool store way ever again! I just don't know what to do. It just seems like those numbers are really crazy to me. I followed the directions carefully.

I'll do the bucket thing, but what do I do?

[Old Bat]

Well the green has disappeared. The water looks good. I have a sock of CYA in front of return.

I just don't want to end up with this scale on the liner again. And such high levels of alk have me worried about future problems. Not sure how to proceed.

I haven't added anything other than bleach and CYA this year.

[BigDave]

Hold tight, Ben will get back to you. He's working on a method for you that none of the rest of us can help with.

[sunlove]

Sounds like you will need to soften your water but that is something I know very little about because I don't have hardness. Think that is why PoolDoc suggested you purchase the washing soda...I am sure he is onto something.

[Old Bat]

Thank you for your replies.

Could somebody tell me how much CYA to add? I've had it in a sock for days and days. Did the test today and the sample is clear all the way up the tube. I'm new to this, sorry. So I think I should put a startup dose of it in. What do you recommend for 5K gallons?

I only have the yellow chlorine test and keeping it up but have to keep adding chlorine so feel I should put some more CYA.

We had some hard rain since startup. PH is 7.2 now. Haven't retested for ALK or hardness yet.

[Watermom]

How much stabilizer did you put in the sock and how much of it would you guess is still in there? [And, where did you locate the sock? Is it in FRONT of the place where water comes back into the pool? PoolDoc ]

How often are you adding chlorine and how much are you adding at a time? Are you using bleach for your source of chlorine?

[PoolDoc]

Please record any new test results with the form below:

Pool History Entry Form (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dFBwR1hvdmtXVDd1eFZUdTgtZGlnYWc6M A) for old bat
Pool History Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahjo2iDF0aJgdFBwR1hvdmtXVDd1eFZUdTgtZGlnY Wc) for old bat

Also, if you'd enter your pool information here:

Pool Chart Entry Form (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZSWc6M Q)
Pool Chart Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahjo2iDF0aJgdHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZS Wc)

Those extreme alkalinity and calcium levels will be hard to work with. We can probably work out a process to clean them up, but it will take a little bit of doing -- and some good info.

Please do all these things:

+ List, by exact brand and product name, the chemicals you have on hand.
+ Complete the pool info chart (second set of links). Your actual pool gallons are about 4,900 & PF=24
+ Tell me if you have access to Arm and Hammer Washing Soda, at Walmart of where-ever.
+ Don't worry too much about stabilizer right now.
+ Keep your pool from getting slimed by adding 1/4 gallon each EVENING.

[Old Bat]

Hello,

Well I'm using that HTH purple cap stabilizer. And I only put in 9oz. per the cap measure. Didn't want to put too much. Today I was kind of milking the sock to get more into the water. I am so confused all the time. The more I read the worse it seems to get!

And so far we are just using plain store bleach 6%. I've added about 3 1/2 gals. No, wait those are only 96oz. bottles. I started with 1 1/2 gals and add about 1/2 gal every couple days. I still have a lot of shock left from last year, but don't know if I should use some of that or not. I think Ben said to just use the bleach.

[Old Bat]

Hi Pool Doc,

I want to retest tomorrow for the alk and calcium. Still seems like those numbers are impossible. And I still only have the 6 way kit from WalMart. Don't think I can afford $87 yet for the Taylor 2006. Would ordering just the FAS DPD kit alone work out? And with the 6 way I only get enough reagent for 2 CYA tests, so could order more of that reagent while I'm at it.

As far as chemicals on hand.

I have the HTH stabilizer/conditioner
Bleach
20 Mule Team Borax
Muriatic Acid
Baking Soda

Last years pool chemical leftovers, (I will have to get back to you on this, they are out in the dark dangerous deck box, will inventory when it's light out)

Now I can't fill out these forms completely just yet without the proper test kits. I will attempt it, but not sure of how it works, will it save it somehow? And our pump gauge is busted, so I go by feel on the return jet.

[Old Bat]

Oh Ben, yes I can get washing soda. And what does PF=24 refer to? Sorry for lameness.

[PoolDoc]

It's a factor for calculating your chemical doses. For example, stabilizer is usually 100% concentration, so 1 lb of stabilizer will add 24 ppm of CYA to your pool. And, a gallon of 6% bleach has about 1/2 pound of chlorine gas (100%!) in it, so a gallon of bleach will add about 12 ppm of chlorine (24 x 0.5) to your pool.

[BigDave]

Not lame. PF is Ben's sizing shorthand for pools. It is the number of your pools required to make a milion pounds of water.

This facilitates quick dosing calculations. An easy example:

1 lb granular stabilizer
x 100% Stabilizer available in granular stabilizer
x 24 Your pool factor
======
24ppm stabilizer added to yur pool by adding 1lb granular stabilizer

[Old Bat]

Retested for what I could this AM. Expected to find that I had perhaps done the test wrong the first time.

No such luck. Alkalinity titrate 550!
Hardness is 630! Unbelievable.

Ph is 7.2, Chlorine via the OTO is 1.

But on the bright side the water is nice and clear. For now.

We used to run a water softener. Our leach field then plugged up. After some research found that the high magnesium content in our soil reacted with the sodium in the softener cycling and turned to thick sludge. Quit using the softener. Needless to say, we go through a lot of lime away and stuff around around here.

[Old Bat]

I bought 2 boxes of Arm & Hammer washing soda. Didn't know how much I was supposed to get.

[PoolDoc]

Hi OB;

I think the A&H is something for later. You've got clear water; you need stabilizer; you need to get your basic pool routine down; you need to learn to use muriatic acid (link in my signature); you need to be comfortable operating your pool . . . and THEN we can look at doing lime softening, which is tricky.

Among other things, you'll have to be ready to vacuum out all the calcium, which will mostly end up on the bottom of your pool.

For now, if you just keep your pH at the low end of things (with muriatic acid), and do NOT use cal hypo as a sanitizer, you should be able to operate just fine.

Later, once I'm a little caught up here on the forum, and once you are comfortable operating the pool, and controlling the basics, THEN we can make it really complicated for about a week.

[Old Bat]

Thanks for the reply, I've read the muriatic acid how tos and will review them again. That is scary stuff to me. But we've used it before for other stuff.

But I need to know about how much muriatic acid to use in my pool. I'm unclear on that.

Also, where should I try to get my stabilizer level at? Because you say you can get too much. Don't want to make things harder. And I only have one test left for CYA.

PH seems to be creeping slowly higher. Like .2 per day. Why is that? This morning's PH was 7.4 and chlorine was between 3 and 4 with the OTO test.

Do you have any ideas on why the alk and hardness both tested even higher the 2nd time I did those?

And if I'm vacuuming calcium dust that should probably go to waste right?

So, please help me get my pool routine down, I'm so clueless with this. As I said we've screwed it up many years in a row! Should I continue with adding 1/4 bottle bleach each evening? And please tell me how much acid. Thanks so much for helping.

[Old Bat]

I just checked the acid I bought. It's the 31%. So should I try to guesstimate about 1/8 gallon for our pool?

[Watermom]

Yes, about 1/8 of a gallon which is about 2 cups. Don't measure it out, though. Just estimate. And, be upwind of the fumes. Nasty stuff.

[PoolDoc]

1. You're alkalinity causes the pH to rise over time. This page explains what's going on:
http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html

2. I'd recommend starting with a 1/8 - 1/4 gallon dose -- don't measure, guess. That may be too much, but with your TA as high as it is, it will just climb back up. (The good thing about muriatic is that it's really, really unpleasant long before it's really dangerous -- but still, if you don't try to pour and measure, you won't get a snoot-ful)

3. Do continue with 1/4 bottle of bleach each evening. If your pool's FC gets too high, skip the next dose.

[Old Bat]

Hello again. I must say that so far this has been the easiest pool year for us, ever. Thanks for all your help.

I see there is now a sticky thread on the lime softening. That is what I came in here for. Our ph keeps creeping up and we are getting calcium scaling starting all over the walls. I will print out the directions. Looks rather complicated, so I will need to get more test chems before I do this.

But other than the hardness problem, we have not had algae, even though we've had an intense heat wave and pounding sun for weeks on end. Thanks so much pool doc! We also have not had to keep changing the DE in the filter. Still using the original and not bumping all the time! It's wonderful!

[aylad]

Glad you're able to enjoy your pool this summer and not spend all your time working on it!!

Janet