Looking for chlorine alternatives . . .

[ChristinaLucia]

I'm new here too and trying to learn about chlorine alternatives.

[PoolDoc]

Hi Christina;

I gotta grin about your post :) :) ;)

How in the world did you end up here? We're sort of the king of the "use chlorine, not all those bogus, faux 'green', worthless products"!

Usually, when we get questions like yours, I try to explain why all the alternatives are bogus, and how the deceptive marketing of the "let's cash in on the dumb consumers who want to go all green" greedster crowd bamboozles gullible MSM reporters, and rips off naive consumers. But we're getting hammered right now, with people we can help -- I'm not sure why, but internet traffic here has gone through the roof.

Plus, I've found that most of the folks who want "chlorine alternatives" don't really want to hear anything different -- so it wastes their time and mine to try to explain all that.

Here are a couple of things you might find interesting:

1. We have a photo gallery of pools (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?14427-Natural-Swimming-Pool-Photo-Gallery) that use natural swamp processes to maintain fairly clear pools. I'd actually love one of those, since I much prefer swimming in streams and the ocean, to pools. A lot of those pools are absolutely gorgeous, and the thread has links to companies selling those designs and gear.

2. A lot of people think of ozone as a "chlorine alternative" -- I'm not sure why; it's more toxic than chlorine -- but anyhow Del Ozone (http://www.delozone.com/applications/residential-pool.php) is considerably less bogus than most of the companies selling ozone for pools.

3. Also, PHMB based products have lost market share over the past decade, but are still available. Baquacil (http://www.baquacil.com/) was the originator of that system, which is STILL the only true (mostly complete) chlorine alternative pool sanitation system.

4. I can't bring myself to link to any of the UV or copper ('mineral') systems that are promoted as alternative systems: those product lines must have hired all the salesmen from Rats Mouth, Florida (Boca Raton), when all the sleazy tele-marketing companies got shut down in the wake of the Federal Do-Not-Call list.

Good luck!

[ChristinaLucia]

Thanks Ben. I mostly am interested in using the least toxic method of pool sanitation. The woman whose house I bought used Pristine Blue. I am not an expert but using copper didn't strike me as less toxic so I am just trying to research and see what the experts think about what to use. Thanks for taking the time to respond to me!

[PoolDoc]

Nope.

The least toxic method is . . . SURPRISE . . . CHLORINE!

But, various environmental groups, with several types of hidden agenda at play, have bamboozled scientifically ignorant MSM reporters into knee-jerk "Chlorine is BAD!" writing. Like most such distortions, there is some truth behind it. In particular using chlorine to treat heavily used indoor pools is problematic, and I'm aware of the problems at a highly personal level: my older son was an elite distance swimmer in middle and high school, but also suffered from severe allergies and chronic asthma.

However, almost all of those problem are issues for INDOOR pools, not outdoor pools with unrestricted air circulation, and full exposure to solar UV.

I often joke about the fact that pools are filled with the highly toxic chemical, dihydrogen oxide, and that more people are killed each year by over-exposure to that single chemical, than by over-exposure to every other chemical combined. Of course, dihydrogen oxide is just water, but it is quite true that more people drown than are killed by other chemicals combined.

Ironically -- and I was finally able to run this down a couple of years ago -- a woman died some years ago, after accidentally drinking about a 1/2 cup of bleach she'd set down next to her orange juice. But, what killed her, was her panicky attempt to dilute the "toxic bleach" with water. She drank nearly 2 gallons, which so upset the electrolyte balance in her body that she died.

And, it's funny in a macabre sort of way when wannabe murderers attempt to poison someone by forcing them to drink bleach. This has happened numerous times in recent years. I'm not certain, but it's my recollection that all such murder attempts have failed until they either used some more toxic material, or used physical means, like a rolling pin.

Ironically, plain old table salt is FAR more toxic that bleach. The LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of test subjects) for salt is around 4g/kg, or about 250 grams for an average adult woman -- about 1/2 cup dry measure. By contrast, the LD50 for sodium hypochlorite is around 6g/kg . . . for 100% sodium hypochlorite, or about 100g/kg as 6% bleach. So plain table salt is around 25 times MORE toxic than "toxic chlorine bleach"!

If the lady who drank the bleach had done nothing, she would have ended up with a sore throat, and possibly, an upset stomach!

[chem geek]

Thanks Ben. I mostly am interested in using the least toxic method of pool sanitation. The woman whose house I bought used Pristine Blue. I am not an expert but using copper didn't strike me as less toxic so I am just trying to research and see what the experts think about what to use. Thanks for taking the time to respond to me!
Partly due to my prodding starting in October 2010, the EPA has just changed the registration on PristineBlue® (http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/064962-00001-20120503.pdf) as of 03-May-2012 so that they cannot call themselves a bactericide nor claim to "control bacteria". Now they can only claim “to control algae and nonpublic health bacteria, and bacteria that cause odor problems in residential swimming pools, spas and hot tubs.” The “nonpublic health bacteria” is a reflection of the fact that copper ions alone do not even control (let alone kill) fecal or blood-borne bacteria at the concentrations of copper allowed in pools.

[PoolDoc]

Just to explain what Chem_Geek is saying, Christine, he has been able to get the EPA to force Pristine Blue to be honest about what the product will and won't do . . . and what it won't do, is sanitize your pool.

[ChristinaLucia]

I appreciate the assistance. So I am just going to go with chlorine. I am just starting to figure out what I need by searching around the site. I have the previous owner's pool person coming in the morning to open the pool. I know nothing about pools and haven't even figured out how to take the automatic cover off. It is in ground fiberglass. It was probably closed last October (northern Michigan close to Canada). Is there anything I need to do to switch from Pristine Blue (chemicals left in the pool?) Or anything else I need to be aware of?

Thanks!

[PoolDoc]

Yes!

If you aren't careful, and there is still copper in the water, you can stain your pool. (Of course, it may already be stained!)

1. Get a K-2006 test kit (info link in my signature)

2. If the owner left a copper test kit, use it, and check copper levels.
.
3. Order some polyquat algaecide - 1 qt per 10K gallons (can possibly find it locally, but Amazon has it at a good price)

Kem-Tek 60% polyquat (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI0Y/poolbooks)
Getting Amazon Prime will let you ship it fast and free -- but remember to cancel Prime if you don't want to keep it. (I end up depending on it at Xmas!)

Amazon Prime (http://www.amazon.com/gp/prime/?tag=poolbooks)

4. Find out pool info: gallons, size, pump/filter make/model, and post that info here.

[ChristinaLucia]

This is Christina's husband posting. Thanks again for all of the info so far. A lot to wade through. Some additional background:

Pool volume is about 10,000 gallons---roughly 10' x 28' rectangle, fiberglass in-ground installed less than 5 years ago.

Sand Filter. The following was on various parts of the machinery. SM1-HP3 and 1 1/2" Hayward SP710 x 32 sand filter only. S-200 S2, Rev. A. Also saw S-200-K on there.

Hayward Super Pump Model CC48J2N131B1

Hayward H200 H Series gas heater

Pool was opened this morning. Water 'looked' pretty darn clear. All I did was add water from the garden hose and start running the filter then came in to post here. :-D Pool was winterized with Pristine Blue. We bought the place in December 2011 and there was a small fortune in PristineBlue products left for us which, of course, I'm trying not to let influence our decision (but it's hard).

No trees overhanging or really even near the pool. Most non-human organic debris probably going to be from a lot of insects, flyover bird poops and the occasional wayward field mouse. The pool is likely to see HEAVY use from kids ages 2-10 (so questionable potty training) in the form of multiple daily swim/play sessions and private group swim lessons since there aren't really any other good alternatives locally. Also the dog likes to stand up to her chest and cool off/slurp up the water (based on past pool experience with her).

I'd previously followed Chem_Geek's discussion on another forum when we were researching Pristine Blue and I saw where the EPA just finished re-registration of PristineBlue earlier this May. Impressive work and follow-up Chem_Geek! I can assure you they have not updated their website as just today they still claim PristineBlue is an "environmentally friendly algicide and bactericide." As someone who is naturally suspicious of corporations and corporate claims (plaintiff's class action lawyer), I'm very disappointed with Earth Science Labs' posted claims.

The PristineBlue literature (taken with a grain of copper ions in light of their promotional materials) states that they have in their lineup of products, PristineExtra which is a sodium di-chlor product which "[m]ay be used for troubleshooting if necessary." Since PristineBlue is advertised as being compatible with chlorine and since the real achilles heel with PristineBlue seems to be with it's 'public health bacteria' killing power is there some way to marry copper and chlorine? In other words, is it a viable strategy to use the PristineBlue system we have on hand and then add in something like their PristineExtra regularly to kill the public health nasties dead?

I suppose one response is that if you're going to be 'doping' your PristineBlue setup with their sodium di-chlor product to control 'nonpublic health bacteria' then why not just dump the PristineBlue system anyway and revert to a more traditional chlorine setup???

I would be very interested in everyone's thoughts on this.

Thanks again for everyone's replies and input. It's been VERY educational.

Carl

[PoolDoc]

Hi Carl;

Dichlor is dichlor, whether it's called "Pristine Blue Extra" or something else. It's just a form of chlorine combined with stabilizer (cyanuric acid).

Here're are the issues you are facing:
1. Last I checked -- and it's been several years -- you can't legally throw materials like Pristine Blue away. Among other things, it may still be the case that if you spill more than 10lbs or so of it on the ground, you have a federally mandated "Reportable Quantity" toxic release. (I'm basing this on the 5lb RQ level for undiluted copper sulfate -- I'm not at all sure why the RQ is so low for that; my recollection is that the RQ for industrial bleach was 1,000 lbs, but there are more than a few weirdities in environmental regulations.

2. Copper will control algae, and will kill most kinds, but it's pretty useless as a sanitizer (antibacterial / antiviral / anti-protozoan)

3. Copper alone can and does stain and turn blonde hair green -- but if you keep the pH low and the copper levels in range, the problems aren't too bad.

4. Copper AND an oxidizer (like chlorine) stains pretty badly.

5. Copper AND an oxidizer AND elevated pH (7.6 or higher) pretty much stains everything.

6. You can add metal sequestrants to the water, to prevent staining, but they reduce BOTH the tendency to stain AND the algicidal properties of copper.

The only options I know are to
a) clandestinely flush small quantities down your toilet, and get rid of it cheaply. (Don't do this if you have a septic tank; don't flush more than 1/2 cup at a time.)

b) use it in your pool WITH chlorine; ignore the stains, and warn blonde haired swimmers before they get in.

c) use it up over the next 3 - 5 years as a WINTERIZING chemical.

[ChristinaLucia]

Just updating that we took our water in for analysis and our copper level was 0.29ppm which was at the high end of normal and, fortunately for us since we're ditching it, on the low end for the PristineBlue system. I don't think we'll even need a squesterer?? The rest of the readings were pretty darn good for having just peeled back the tarp after 9 mos covered. pH is a little high 8.0, Hardness low 170ppm, TA a little off and there's obviously no chlorine at all present as the previous owner didn't use any. We're going to order the K-2006 test kit from your sig, do some more reading here on the forums and start our new regimen.

Thanks again for the advice and information/links/analysis!

[PoolDoc]

I wouldn't be confident that no staining will occur.

You may not need a sequestrant, but go ahead and lower your pH to 7.0 - 7.4. Avoid adding "alkalinity increaser" (sodium bicarbonate / sodium hydrogen carbonate). Do NOT add calcium hardness. Use borax, not pH UP (soda ash / sodium carbonate) to raise your pH.

Raise your chlorine GRADUALLY over a couple of days, and run your pump & filter continuously.

[chem geek]

I'd previously followed Chem_Geek's discussion on another forum when we were researching Pristine Blue and I saw where the EPA just finished re-registration of PristineBlue earlier this May. Impressive work and follow-up Chem_Geek! I can assure you they have not updated their website as just today they still claim PristineBlue is an "environmentally friendly algicide and bactericide." As someone who is naturally suspicious of corporations and corporate claims (plaintiff's class action lawyer), I'm very disappointed with Earth Science Labs' posted claims.
Just thought I'd let you know that I did recently E-mail the company asking them when they planned to change their website and labeling given the re-registration restricting them from what they can say. I haven't heard back, but will give them some time and will follow-up again. If they still don't respond or change the website in particular (since it can be changed much more quickly than labeling), then I'll report them to the EPA compliance enforcement division for FIFRA violations. It may take another year, though, for the EPA to do anything about it! To be honest, this isn't one of those terribly serious life-threatening problems -- I just want to keep the manufacturers honest.