My turn to tackle algae

[cornercarver]

Hi all. New to the forum and need some guidance. I read as much as I could as an unregistered guest.

Typical green algae/cloudy pool. I have started with liquid shock and have gone from green to steel blue and cloudy. I can see down about 18"-24".

18' x 33' oval approx. 15,000 gals
above ground with vinyl liner
sand filter hayward pump

I am using the HTH 6 way kit

Chlorine - 0-trace
pH - 8.2+ (as high as it would read)
TA - 100 ppm
TH - 80 ppm
CYA - 0

Based on my reading, I need to lower pH and shock. I used the pool calculator to determine I need 4 gallons bleach and the calculator gave me amounts of acid to add based on delivery method.

My first question is does it matter which order I add chemicals? Do I tackle pH then go after the Cl or vice versa or does it matter? From other threads it looks like starting with shock is the first order.

My second item is that I struggled all last year keeping Cl levels up. I just used strips to test and eyeballed clarity. I had a few algae issues but it wasn't really a struggle but I know I need to keep my CL levels up. Based on my reading of the forum, after I get the Cl and pH working, I can use stabilizer to get the CYA up. Am I on the right track?

Thanks!

[aylad]

Hi cornercarver, and welcome to the forum!

You are on the right track--the key to clearing the algae is going to be achieving shock level (12-15 ppm for a 0 CYA pool) and then maintaining it until the pool is clear and you don't lose more than 1 ppm of chlorine when measuring at night and again in the morning before the sun hits the pool (that way you're measuring actual chlorine use in the pool, and don't have to guess at how much was lost to sunlight). That being said, anytime you have high chlorine levels, you're also going to have falsely high pH readings. So...I would use the acid to lower the pH into the 7.0-7.8 range first, and THEN shock the pool.

Typically we would recommend that you leave the pump and filter running 24/7, backwashing the filter as your pressure gauge indicates, but can you tell me what size pump and filter you have? If the filter is over-driven by a pump that's too large, which sometimes happens in AG pools, the pump can actually push the algae through the filter and back into the pool, except in smaller pieces.

Regarding your test strips, I'm hoping you've realized that they're not very reliable, and that's why you're using the 6-way kit, which is actually a relabeled Taylor kit. You're right in that you can add stabilizer to the pool to raise your CYA, but I would get the pool cleared up first.

[cornercarver]

Not sure what parameters you're looking for...

Effective filtration area - 1.7 ft2
Filtration rate - 20 GPM/ft2
150 lbs sand

pump - 1.5 hp

[Sean OBrien]

Falling back on my engineering knowledge due to my lack of pool knowledge...

You will need to find out what the flow rate is on your pump and check it against your filter. In this case your filter has an effective filter area of 1.7 ft2 and a filtration rate of 20 gpm per ft2. Little basic math should translate that to the filter being able to handle 34 gpm.

Considering that your pump is 1 1/2 HP - you are probably looking at somewhere between 75 and 100 gpm flow on the pump (depending on head and line loss...though the end result will be the same). The end result is that either your filter is too small or your pump is too big.

Now it starts to get a bit fuzzy on my experience with pools... As I understand it, you want to filter your whole pool once every 8-10 hours. So, your pump is close to being the right sized (if my assumptions are correct), however your filter seems to be about half the size it should be.

That results in the water being forced through the sand bed too fast, and when it moves too fast things like algae just get shredded by the sand and ejected back out into the pool as opposed to remaining in the filter where they can be removed by backwashing the filter. And that can mean that while you manage to kill the algae, the dead particles remain floating about in the pool until you manage to sort out the filtration of those solids from the pool itself.

[cornercarver]

So, I got my pH to 7.2 yesterday and then shocked with bleach yesterday evening. Chlorine level appeared to be 10+ppm using strips (my HTH only measures to 5). Checked chlorine this morning and had 1 ppm using th HTH kit. pH still 7.2.

I discovered that I had calcium scale on my liner as a resulot of my high pH over winter. The water is now very cloudy. I'm running my filter and I think I'm making progress. My pressure gauge isn't working so I am observing water flow to determine when to backswash. I'll get a new gauge on soon so I won't be guessing.

I filled a small glass with pool water to see if the white stuff would settle overnight. The white particles were still in suspension this morning. Am I still dealing with dead algae or also calcium precipitate? When do I go nuclear and use floc?

Also, the kids are dying to jump in the pool. Is it safe for them to jump in for a bit in this condition? I don't want them swimming for long but a few minutes in will make them feel like progress is happening. At least this project has the youngest interested in pool maintenance. He's been using the skim net and helping with the water testing.

[aylad]

Here is a link to a prodecure you can use to make your hth kit read higher chlorine levels... http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?10073-Testing-high-chlorine-levels-(without-a-good-testkit)

If you lost that much chlorine overnight (assuming the 1 ppm reading was before sun hit the pool?) then you still have a good ways to go in killing off whatever is in your water. If it was after the sun hit the pool, then we don't know if it was due to oxidizing goo, or to sunlight. If you'll test at night and the next morning before the sun is on it, you can compare the numbers and get a better idea.

Your calcium level is not high enough that I would expect calcium scale, but I could be wrong--can you flake off a piece of it, put it in a covered jar with some vinegar overnight and see if it dissolves?

I would not use floc at this point--you need to make sure that you've killed off all the living algae, and filtered out what you can before you even go that route, since if not used carefully it can create other problems for you.

Regarding swimming, as long as the pool has chlorine in it and the pH is within range, the biggest danger is going to be swimmers underwater in cloudy water so that you can't see if one of them is in trouble or not. If you can't see the swimmers, I wouldn't let them in.

[PoolDoc]

1. Brush your pool completely, to make sure you don't have any hidden algae left.

2. Wait 4 hours. If you have no green after brushing, still have good chlorine levels and OK pH, it's safe to swim from a sanitation point of view. What's NOT safe is the cloudiness: it only takes a few minutes (occasionally, 30 seconds) of submersion and a person can no longer be resuscitated. So if you let your kids play, WATCH them, and maintain a running head count, because you will NOT see them on the bottom in time!

3. Floc is unpredictable. If you want to try it, order some PAC (poly-aluminum chloride):

GLB Pool & Spa Products 71408 1-Quart Drop n' Vac Pool Water Clarifier @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002KT6TY/poolbooks)
but then use the white bucket test to make sure it's gonna work, before you dump it into the pool. This is one case, where a little 'too much' may be better than not enough, so you may want two bottles.

However to use floc, you will EITHER need to vac to waste OR make SURE your filter is working well, and won't blow the floc THROUGH the filter. (If you have a low speed, that will work, if the filter is full of sand.)

[cornercarver]

Thanks for the help. I'll keep at it.

[cornercarver]

I have been keeping at it all week. Still using the HTH test kit. I'll get the Taylor soon so I can get better chemistry numbers.

After I go the pH right and shocked the pool for a few days, I got in and got to work with my brush. I discovered a few things that don't belong in the pool that weren't helping! I got that all out and the bottom has been pretty clean since. I redirected my return jet down to keep the water moving across the bottom better. Over the course of a few days, I would find maple leaves and seeds and some green bits but haven't found any recently.

What I thought was calcium scale was probably sand algae. I used a dish scrubbing sponge to get the dead sand algae off of the wall and vacc'd and backwashed. The water is still cloudy but I can see a little deeper each day. My wife is getting a little impatient for crystal clear water. I have some floc on hand in case I need to go that route but I am going to use that as a last resort.

I was backwashing every 6 hours. By the weekend I was going 24 hrs with no noticeable change in pressure. After the sand algae deal I had to backwash again in about 4 hrs but pressure hasn't gone up much since that last wash. After reading through some other threads my next steps are either a skimmer sock or DE. It is also probably time to slow the water flow through the pump. Anyone have any luck with just leaving the vac hose attachment on the brush and leave it pointing up at the bottom? I noticed that the water flow is significantly less when the pump has to pull water through all of the hose. Smaller orifice and long hose makes for a big pressure drop.


My Cl seems to hold overnight but I loose it to UV pretty quickly. CYA reading was 0 last week. I was waiting for clear water before raising my CYA but should I start raising my CYA now so that my Cl won't burn off? I had this same problem last year. My water would start to get hazy after a couple of cloudy days. I would add Cl at night and the sun would come out and the haze would disappear.

[PoolDoc]

If you have no green left, it's time to add CYA. However, since you are working on your pool, do NOT put it in the skimmer. Instead, either use dichlor to chlorinate AND raise CYA for awhile OR hand about 4lbs in a sock in front of a return.

Regarding calcium leftovers, from sand algae . . . do NOT scrub too much; liners aren't made to take it.

Instead, the way to do it is to lower pH to 6.8 - 7.0 AND to aerate, which you can do by re-directing one of those jets to ruffle the water somewhat. You'll want to get your alkalinity as low as possible, which will make the pool water re-dissolve the scale. It will take REPEATED additions of acid to keep the pH low, since it will rise as the alkalinity diminishes.

By the way, it would be a good idea to verify that the scale is sand algae or calcium carbonate. If you can get a small piece or a few bits, and put them in a small glass container, and cover them with white vinegar. Cover that, air tight (Saran wrap) and leave it overnight. Calcium carbonate scale will dissolve; other things wont.

[aylad]

If you're holding chlorine overnight, then go ahead and start raising your CYA. We typically recommend that people start with a target of around 40 ppm, and then once that level is reached, you'll need to evaluate your chlorine loss during the day to see if you want to go higher. You can add it through the skimmer and let it dissolve on your filter, but if you do that you can't backwash the filter for 4-5 days or you'll just wash the CYA out and have to start over. Or you can put it in an old sock and hang it in front of a return while it dissolves. If you're still needing to backwash to clear up your pool (which you shouldn't do until you see an 8-10 psi rise in pressure--remember that a dirty filter works better than a clean one..) then I would go that route.

Edit: Ben is apparently typing faster than me today........

[cornercarver]

I can finally see the bottom! After I confirmed I was holding Cl level overnight, I shocked the pool, let it circulate for a while and shut it down to see if I could get the cloud to settle. After three days, the cloud didn't change much, so I decided to floc.

After reading another thread, I was comfortable using alum. I read the directions carefully and consulted my father in law who is also a pool owner and retired water plant engineer. I dissolved the alum in water and added to the skimmer. Let it recirc for an hour and shut it down. I collected a sample in a glass to observe the floc in action.

By the next morning, the water in the glass had flocs on the bottom and a few flocs still suspended in the water but no fine particles. I still couldn't see the bottom of the pool but I knew I had a lot of sediment. I vac'd to waste and got a lot of sandy particles off the bottom. After a thorough vac, I vac'd through the filter. I picked up more stuff and then had to backwash the filter. I still couldn't see the bottom clearly but I could see the head of the vac through the haze.

Another vac the following day but no need to backwash. Still couldn't see the bottom clearly By this morning I could see the detail of the liner on the bottom. The filter gauge has shown an increase in pressure so I know it's working. I'm hoping for crystal clear very soon then I will adjust my CYA.

Thanks for all the help and information. POPP is the most important tool for success

[PoolDoc]

I'm interested in how the alum works out for you. We need to use flocs more, but to do so we need to know more.