Above Ground-Liner Stains

[hatsoff389]

Hi All,

Hoping someone can help. Just opened my pool yesterday and the water was clear. I did notice some stains on the bottom liner only so I tried scrubbing them off. Unfortunately, these stains are not coming out. The stains almost look a grayish color. I added sparkle conquest earlier today, and the stains still won't come off. Does anyone know what I can do? I follow all of the winterizing procedures, and have never had this problem before. One thing I did notice was one of the pool rails has rusted, and there were a few specs of rust on the bottom of the pool I vacuumed up. The stains are not near where these rust specs were though.

Thanks

[aylad]

Before anybody can venture a guess as to what they are, we need to have an idea of what has been put into the pool. When you tried scrubbing them, did you try a baking soda paste? Have you tried rubbing it with a vitamin C tablet to see if it's maybe metal staining?

If you can post a list of your water test results, along with a list of what has been added to the pool, it might help us help you a little better....

[hatsoff389]

Silly me. I'm usually good at researching problems, but instead I went to my local pool store and listened to them. When I took the cover off, the ph, and alkalinity were both low. No sign of chlorine either, but the pool was clear and free of algae. I put in ph increase yesterday, as well as alkalinity powder. I also added two pounds of shock. The pool is an 18 round. Today, I tested it and the readings were ph 7.8, free chlorine was 0, alkalinity was 120, and ppm stabilizer was 30-50. This was using dip strips. I know some people don't like these test strips but they have never failed me as of yet.

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I have not tried either baking soda or vitamin c. Should the filter be running during this treatment of sparkle conquest?

Thanks!

[aylad]

I have no idea what sparkle conquest is, so I can't advise you there. I do know that if your stabilizer is 30-50 ppm (which I doubt--I'm one of those who absolutely distrusts test strips) and you put in 2 pounds of shock but now have zero chlorine, that you're probably fighting something in the water, and I'm guessing it's the sparkle conquest. So...you'll find that our advice here often differs much from the pool store's, and that people who try to follow advice from both us and the pool store end up frustrated. Because this is a busy time of year and we're struggling to keep up with posts from folks who follow the advice that we give, I'm going to ask you to choose one or the other--so we don't waste your time and energy trying to help clear up a pool with conflicting advice from other places.

Thanks

Janet

[hatsoff389]

I signed up on the forum to get advice from the people on the forum. The readings I gave you were before I added the sparkle conquest which is a stain fight chemical against minerals.

[PoolDoc]

Hatsoff,

You might have come to the wrong place: you think test strips are great; you trust your pool store; you are using HEDP (Conquest) at their instructions to remove an unidentified gray stain. It sounds like you've got a plan and are pursuing it.

It's not a plan we'd recommend, but it's your plan and that's what matters.

What's not clear is what you want from us?

Our advice is not really compatible with pool store advice, so you'll end up having to pick one or the other. It sounds like you just want a 2nd opinion, but I'm pretty sure you don't want OUR advise which is going to going to include things like, "Ditch the 'guess-strips'" and "Figure out what the stain is, before you start treating it" . . . and you've already decided you don't WANT that sort of advice.

So, my first thought is that we can save both your time and ours, by suggesting you go with what you trust, and head back to your pool store!

We hope you have a great pool season!

[hatsoff389]

Are you guys kidding me on this forum? I took the time, and followed all the processes to join this forum. Now it seems you guys are chasing me away. I am not looking for a second opinion. I joined this forum because I have stains on the bottom of my pool that I would like to get rid of. The moderator asked for the readings in my pool and I provided them. Now I am just looking for help with these stains. I plan on going with the advice I can receive on this forum. This is why I joined.

[Watermom]

Then, our advice is to purchase a good test kit (Taylor K-2006 or 2006C, see the testkit link in my signature) and not use the test strips. Find out what your CYA level is via the disappearing black dot test. The kit I recommended can do this test and most pool stores can do this for you but please do not let them talk you into buying anything else to add to the pool. Keep your chlorine at the appropriate range based on your CYA reading. (See the Best Guess Chlorine Chart in my signature below.)

Also, try the suggestions Janet gave you above regarding your stains.

[PoolDoc]

Help with these stains, tends to flow directly into help with pool chemistry in general. So, if your choosing our advice over the pool store (and we're fine with either choice; we just don't have time -- especially right now -- for people who are trying to split the difference) do these things:

1. Go get an HTH 6-way test kit at Walmart (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668). It appears that these stores have them in stock and are near you:

Walmart store #2825—Old Bridge (732) 525-8030
1126 Us Highway 9
Old Bridge, NJ 08857

Walmart store #5201—Edison (732) 650-1297
2220 State Route 27
Edison, NJ 08817

Walmart store #5281—Woodbridge (732) 826-4652
306 Us Highway 9 N
Woodbridge, NJ 07095

2. While you're there, pick up a bottle of Vitamin C tablets and a small bottle of Iron Out (detergent section)

3. Test the pool when you return. We're particularly interested in the stabilizer reading -- 'guess strips' are notoriously inaccurate at that point. Tell us what your test results are.

4. High chlorine can make it hard to remove stains, so you might want to look and see if you can find some polyquat at Walmart or elsewhere, to keep your pool from turning green while you work on stains. Look for an algaecide with a 60% concentration of poly [oxyethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene dichloride] If you find some, add a dose as soon as you get back.

5. Pile a few Vit. C tabs on the stain, and see if it has any effect.

6. Let us know what all the results and reactions are, and what you've been able to find.

7. Also, tell us what type of pool you have, dimensions and volume, and the make/model of your pump and filter.

8. And, ESPECIALLY, if you have an ionizer, skimmer pill, Floatron, Frog, Nature2, or any such device OR if you have used any algaecide with copper or silver OR if you've used any sort of 'chlorine-free' product.

[hatsoff389]

Wow. Thanks. I'm heading over to walmart now to get the test kit.

[hatsoff389]

Ok, I picked up the test kit, algaecide, iron out, and vitamin c. I can't test the vitamin c on the stains because it is pouring here right now and dark. I did do a test. Remember, these reading are now 12 hours after adding the sparkle conquest with the filter running.

Cya-30ppm
Ph 7.2
Cl/br-0
Alkalinity-120
Hardness-80

The pool is an 18 round with a Hayward sand filter.
I have not put algaecide in the pool yet since opening and I do not know what frog,Ionizer, floatron or skimmer pill is.

One thing I think I should mention. I purchased a winterizing kit from in the swim and used it before closing the pool. If I recall, it was a bottle of algaecide. They also gave me this plastic bottle with holes in it to and I put chlorine tabs inside the bottle. This bottle sat in the pool the entire winter.

Thanks,

Ryan

[PoolDoc]

Unfortunately, these stains are not coming out. The stains almost look a grayish color.

One thing I did notice was one of the pool rails has rusted, and there were a few specs of rust on the bottom of the pool I vacuumed up. The stains are not near where these rust specs were though.

OK. Gray stains + rust specks.

Easy stuff first: put a pinch of the Iron Out directly on the rust specks. You'll have to get into the water to do this and will probably need to put some Iron Out in a baggie, so you can open it underwater, and get a pinch out. Try NOT to stir the water, because you want the Iron Out to sit on the specks for awhile, and not be carried away by currents in the water. (So, do this with the pool pump off)

Not so easy: put a pinch of Iron Out on a gray stained area, and put a couple of Vitamin C tabs on another area. Wait till they are gone, and then see if it changes the stain at all. I doubt that it will. In the absence of added silver, copper or zinc in your pool, gray (to black) stains are probably fungus staining THROUGH your liner from underneath. Here are the best pictures I could find, all from Tara Liners (www.taraliners.com):

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FrKE2VFZUPo/T7uXJYPfleI/AAAAAAAAC9o/Dj-IgxT-5h0/s400/tara-liner-6073918303_67d3e8722a_b.jpg -- https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Zm7YfpLgJ5I/T7uXJoY-KqI/AAAAAAAAC9s/M3uqtwThk7E/s800/tara-liner-Fungus2.jpg -- https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mykb6MlyTOQ/T7uXKA1IYrI/AAAAAAAAC94/OysKS4mlJ2c/s800/tara-liner-Fungus1.jpg

Tara sells a "Stain Barrier" product (http://www.taramfg.com/dealersdistributors/stain-barrier.aspx) to prevent this, and has more info on their page for pool owners (http://www.taramfg.com/pool-owners.aspx).

That's not going to help you much, though. Fungal staining migrates THROUGH the liner material, from underneath, so you can't remove it, since it's IN the liner. Very high chlorine will often lighten the stains -- but you have to get high enough where you risk 'lightening' the WHOLE liner. If you have any chlorine tabs, you can test by breaking a tab, and putting a small piece ON the liner for an hour or so. Do NOT leave it there; doing this is not good for the liner because of the low pH, and again, may lighten the liner itself, from the very high chlorine under the tab. (If you have some granular cal hypo, or a cal hypo brickette, that would be safer choice for testing.)

[hatsoff389]

Thanks a ton Ben. I will try what you said. I am thinking the stains could be coming from underneath the liner like you said because these stains are ONLY on the bottom of the liner. There is not one stain on the walls of the pool liner.

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I put some vitamin c tabs on one stain. Lets see what happens. Also, I should note, the stains in the picture you sent me are much darker then the stains I have.

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If I can't get these stains out, can I just rebalance the pool water and use the pool? Is it safe to swim with these stains?

[PoolDoc]

If I can't get these stains out, can I just rebalance the pool water and use the pool? Is it safe to swim with these stains?

Yes.