Cannot Get Rid of Cloudy Water

[ajb8898]

I am at my wits end on this pool. I think I could weep. We have a 15,000g above ground. We opened at the end of April to a very, very green pool. Over the last month we've done so many things I could not begin to tell you. We've shocked a lot, floc'd twice and put in clarifier as well as this stuff called Eckoclean. Finally found this board and ordered the kit.

As of this morning, the pool is blue but only visible about a foot down. I haven't seen the bottom of the pool all year. It's been pretty blue for a few weeks but will not clear up.

I just went to the pool store for them to test (not to buy anything) so I would have something to give you until my kit came in

CYA : 70
Cholorine: 6
pH: 7.2
Alkalinity: 80
Total Hardness: 200
Copper: .2

They recommended using an Alkalinity increaser. I'm waiting to use it until I hear from you guys. It is the BioGuard Maintain Balancepak 100. It is a 12lb bag but I only have about half. They said I needed 18lb. I thought I had a 50lb and had enough. Glad now I didn't buy any more.
They also recommended a natural clarifier. I have a clarifier that a different pool store sold us but I don't think it's the natural kind. It's called Ultra Bright Step 5 Enhancer; concentrated blend of polymer to clear cloudy water.

We have a Hayward Power-Flo LX Pump S48C51203 1.5 SPL
Hayward Pro Series sand filter Model S-166T

Would appreciate any help as I really want the pool ready for Memorial day weekend! Thank you!!

[sunlove]

Your alkalinity is perfect leave that alone...they are just trying to sell you stuff. Trust me I know from experience ;) Even if you did need to raise it, all you do is add baking soda...

I don't know what "Eckoclean" is but you probably would have been better off not adding all that stuff in the water that could have made it worse. But hey I did the same thing at opening, we learn from our mistakes though.

And as for your pump/filter...I'm not an expert but that seems like a pretty small filter for that size of a pool.

I guess what they would need to know (they, being the folks here) is are you wanting to use the BBB method, or do you want to continue with the pool store game?

BBB method: http://poolsolutions.com/gd/the-BBB-method-of-swimming-pool-care.html

[AnnaK]

Your alkalinity is fine for a vinyl pool. I wouldn't add anything to raise it.
Blue is good! Keep running your filter 24/7. When is the last time you backwashed/rinsed the filter? I would put it through a backwash and rinse cycle, start with a clean filter, and then keep it on.
With CYA at 70 your optimal FC (free chlorine) is 5-10 ppm. I would add enough regular unscented household bleach to raise it to 10 ppm. Please test for combined chlorine (CC) or total chlorine. You may still have algae and might have to shock but we can't know that until we know those values. Could you call the pool store that did the testing and ask what "chlorine" means: total chlorine? combined chlorine? free chlorine?
Your pH is within range but at the low end. You might consider raising it to 7.5 using 20 Mule Team Borax.
With a vinyl pool you don't need to worry about total hardness.

We can probably get your pool cleared up by Memorial Day but we use the BBB method. That means we rarely use floc, algaecides, clarifiers and such. Our primary approach is regular bleach to provide sanitizing chlorine, borax for pH up, baking soda to adjust alkalinity, muriatic acid to drop the pH, and stabilizer (also known as conditioner and CYA).

Something that's helpful in a cloudy pool being cleaned is to brush it at least once a day just to get the stuff that's settled on the bottom back into solution so it can be filtered.

[ajb8898]

Thank you for the responses. Let's see here. First, I am totally fine with BBB. Clearly, the other chemicals are not working. HOWEVER, I did just buy a huge tub of chlorine and pucks and would like to use them up if at all possible. It was a lot of money and I'd like to not waste anymore if possible. If I could use them up first and then switch to pure BBB, that would be pretty awesome.

What I have is:
A bucket of Tricholoro
A bucket of pucks - Sodium dichloro
What I mentioned above for the Alkalinity


The paper says the 6 is Total Chlorine and under it it says Free Chlorine is also 6.

[ajb8898]

Oh and we just emptied the sand on Saturday and put new sand in and I backwashed and rinsed this morning.

[AnnaK]

The good news is, you have no live algae. The chlorine formula is FC + CC = TC. CC is combined chlorine, an indirect measure of algae. Since your total chlorine = your free chlorine, you have no CC and no algae. The reason your water is cloudy is dead algae which need to get filtered out.

A slightly dirty sand filter works better than brand new clean sand. Make a note of the pump pressure at the gauge. When that rises between 5 and 8 psi is the time to backwash. Don't forget the rinse cycle after backwashing to pack the sand back down and prevent it from shooting out the returns.

The trichlor will add CYA to the water and will decrease the pH. Since your CYA is already a little high you should reserve use of those pucks only for when you're on vacation and can't add bleach. Dichlor is also stabilized chlorine (contains CYA) and not appropriate for your situation at this time. If you haven't opened the containers yet you might want to return them to the store.

Have you read here or elsewhere about filter socks? Available from Amazon and at the pool store. You slip a filter sock inside the skimmer basket and loop it over the outside edge, sort of like a coffee filter sits inside its basket. Filter socks catch a whole lot of very small bits and are hugely helpful when trying to clear dead algae. With the pump running 24/7 you'll want to change the sock twice a day. Rinse under a hose, reuse.

A CYA of 70 is okay, you just don't want it to get higher. It will drop if you have a lot of splashout and have to refill, or when you top off the pool after backwashing/rinsing. This level does mean you need to run a slightly higher FC level, as I mentioned earlier. A very approximate calculation is that 21 oz of 6% regular bleach add 1 ppm of free chlorine to 10,000 gallons of water. If you're able to buy liquid chlorine at the pool store (comes in 5 gallon carboys) that has approximately 12% chlorine. For every 10,000 gallons the math is: 1.280 / 0.12 = # of ounces of 12% chlorine to raise 10,000 by 1 ppm. Or 1.280 / 0.06 = # of ounces of 6% chlorine to raise 10,000 gallons by 1 ppm.

BBB takes a little patience and commitment when you have a murky pool. Once it's clear and sparkling it'll take a maximum of 5 minutes a day: test pH, test FC and CC, adjust FC as needed. Once a week test TA (total alkalinity). Swim :)

At this point your only real issue is to get the water clear. That means filtration, brushing, and maintaining 10 ppm of free chlorine with bleach. I would take the unopened pool store products back to the store and buy bleach with the refund, and a package of skimmer socks.

[ajb8898]

OK so I'm hearing I need to put in 84 oz of bleach from Walmart? The kit I have now only goes up to 5 so I won't be able to keep an eye on it until it comes in a few days. Also, do I put it in the skimmer or broadcast?

At what point should I raise the pH with Borax? Before/after/during? How much does it take and how do I "apply"?

[ajb8898]

Wait. That math was only good for 10,000g. Since we have 15,000g, it would be 126oz?

[AnnaK]

Yes. 126 oz of Walmart 6% bleach will raise your current FC to around 10 ppm. My preferred method of adding bleach is to pour it slowly in front of a return with the pump running. You can also pour it around the sides while you're walking around the pool but it can get splashy and wreck your clothes. Another way is to put it in a pitcher and broadcast across the water but this also has messiness potential. Or you can pour it in the skimmer with the pump running but ONLY if you DO NOT have an inline chlorinator filled with trichlor pucks. You DO NOT want trichlor pucks to come in contact with bleach. It'll go BOOM. Really. The safest way is to pour it in front of a return.

Since your pH is within acceptable range let's just leave it there until you get the Taylor kit. The alk at 80 is a good buffer and you're not adding trichlor or dichlor, aren't making the water more acidic, so we'll just get the FC up and the get water filtered.

[ajb8898]

Yikes, that sounds scary. I have them floating in there now. How long do I need to have them out before putting in the bleach? I definitely don't want anything booming.

[AnnaK]

None of us do :)

Just scoop them out with the leaf net and set them somewhere where you know you won't spill bleach on them. Given your CYA of 70 you don't really want to use them anyway because they keep adding more CYA and dropping the pH. Put them in an bucket with a lid. They'll keep.

Once they're out of the way you can go ahead and add the bleach.

[ajb8898]

OK I will do this tonight. Thank you so much for the help so far.

[AnnaK]

Happy to help. Remember to look for filter socks as they'll really improve the filtration. I suspect we'll have a clear pool for your Memorial Day activities. If you're out and about shopping you might pick up a box of 20 Mule Team Borax. We may want that to raise the pH in a couple of days. It should be in the laundry aisle of your grocery store or at Walmart. If you can't find any, see if they have Washing Soda. Washing Soda will also raise the TA (alk) but we could live with a small increase.

[ajb8898]

OK, kids got in to swim this evening, cloudy water and all. They said the bottom felt clean. I then added 2 gallons of bleach and then brushed the bottom to be sure it was all stirred up. Walmart was out of Borax so I got the Washing Soda instead. I also got Baking Soda just in case. They also did not have any filter socks but I will get some.

I'll report more in the morning.

[AnnaK]

Kids!

Did you add 2 gallons? Or 2 jugs? A gallon is 128 oz and we were shooting for 126 oz. You'll have a goodly amount of chlorine to kill whatever might need killing. If you have the chance to take another water sample to the pool store for testing let's see what the pH is. Some pH tests fail when the FC is over 10 ppm. I'm not entirely comfortable recommending how much washing soda to add until we have a reliable pH number.

[ajb8898]

Sorry, I didn't say that right. I bought the 184oz bottle at Walmart and my husband did his best to add 2/3 of it so we could get around 120oz.

[Watermom]

I would advise you to go ahead and put those partially dissolved trichlor tabs back into the pool and let them dissolve. That way you don't have to worry about how to store them. But, then, just don't use any more. (They won't add that much more CYA to make much difference at this point.)

[AnnaK]

Sorry, I didn't say that right. I bought the 184oz bottle at Walmart and my husband did his best to add 2/3 of it so we could get around 120oz.

Thank you for the clarification.

I use a wide-mouth plastic bottle with a screw cap; it holds 86 oz (I think) and has increments of 16 oz marked on it. I pour chlorine from the bleach bottle into the measuring jar. I've also used a plastic 1 qt measuring cup in the past. Most of my bleach additions are in the 16 oz range so being able to measure the smaller quantities is handy.

[ajb8898]

The pool looks super clean this morning...nice and blue...but still cloudy. Visibility might have improved a few inches, but not much. We did have a good bit of unexpected rain last night as well.

[AnnaK]

This is where patience is needed. Filtering out the dead algae will take time.

[ajb8898]

Ok. So we should just keep brushing in the meantime?

[AnnaK]

Brushing helps get the debris that has settled back into solution. If you have a chance to take another sample to the pool store for testing, do that. It would be good to make sure you have no CC (or less than 1 ppm, anyway) and we could start working on raising the pH just a little. My concern is that if the FC is over 10 ppm when they test, the pH measurement may not be accurate. You said you had ordered the Taylor K2006. What is the expected delivery date?

[ajb8898]

It says it shipped yesterday. Earliest day says Friday.

[ajb8898]

The kids got in yesterday and it rained a ton last night. The water still looks exactly the same--clean blue and cloudy. I have not been to get the water checked but used my strips at home and the FC is clearly not a 10. It's more like a 3-5. I tested the pH with the small liquid kit I have and it's still reading 7.0-7.2.

[AnnaK]

Have you tried using the skimmer socks?

Go ahead and raise your pH to 7.5, and pour in 1 gallon of 6% bleach. Those test strips aren't really reliable.

[ajb8898]

I'm hoping to get the socks today and maybe get a new reading from the pool store.

I have the Washing Soda. How much do I put in for the pH?

[AnnaK]

Add 2 cups of washing soda. That will raise your pH by 0.2 points or thereabouts. Let it circulate for a couple of hours, then let's test it again. Or you can take a sample to the pool store and let them give us some numbers.

[ajb8898]

OK both have been added. I'll try to get to the pool store about lunchtime.

[ajb8898]

OK here we go. Got the sock. Realized we had our jet pointed too far up so we're going to change that. Hopefully that will help with the filtering.

Since Monday, they've started using some sort of machine to test. When I went the other day they were still reading manually. I find some of the differences to be surprising.

CYA: 37 (they said 70 on Monday. is this normal?)
TC: 6.5
FC: 5.3
pH: 7.4
TA: 132
Adj Total Alk: 121

They said chemicals looked fine but b/c TC and FC were different probably needed shocked again. Is something trying to grow since TC and FC are different?

[ajb8898]

When I just went out there I saw a few pieces of algae floating at the top. Still seems blue though.

[AnnaK]

Yes, it's normal for pool store testing to vary. That's why we're so adamant that you have your own DPD-FAS test kit and do your own testing. Yours will arive Friday and you'll have a lot of fun!

It's hard to say which CYA reading is correct so we'll leave that one alone for now. Either number is okay and if you do put the floater with the trichlor pucks back in the pool it'll add a little CYA. Mostly we shoot for 50 ppm, give or take.

pH looks great! TA is okay.

Now, chlorine. Remember this formula: TC = FC + CC. If CC is .5 or more, we have organics that need to be killed. Your CC is 1.2, not good. We need to shock. Ben's Best Guess Chlorine Chart tells us that for CYA between 30 and 50 we need FC = 15. To get there from the tested FC of 5 you need to add 311 oz of 6% bleach, that 2.5 gallons. You have to maintain this shock level until your overnight chlorine loss is less than 1 ppm. See why you need your own test kit? It saves on running to the pool store for water testing.

I'm intrigued by what it is you saw floating on the top. Algae normally adhere to the pool walls or bottom or show up as a green tinge to the water. What did this floating matter look like?

I'm happy to hear you got the skimmer sock. Check it in a few hours. It'll have crud in it, probably dark grey to brown looking. Rinse it out with the hose, put it back in.

You'll want to stock up on a few gallons of bleach.

[ajb8898]

The stuff on the top is a very dark green color and almost looks like little oval pills floating around. I scooped most of it up but just found a few small pieces to take a picture of. This is what has been coming up for weeks. I assumed algae but is it something else?

EDIT -- Email the pic to poolforum@gmail.com

[AnnaK]

What kind of steps do you have?

[ajb8898]

4 steps in the shape of half moon. We took them out over the weekend and haven't put them back in.

[AnnaK]

Were they clean when you took them out or did they have green spots on them? What's floating on the surface of your pool does look like algae, a heavy patch of it that's broken loose from somewhere else. And, with the cloudy water it's hard to know what's on the bottom. That's why brushing is important, even when you can't really see what you're doing.

I use a Wall Whale, have you heard of that or seen it at the store? It's a pool brush with sort of a flap on it, fits on a telepole. When you push the brush the flap move upward and pushes a whole lot of water around. That way, even when I can't easily reach some parts of the pool, I still get a good amount of water movement in the area. Plus, I use this brush to push water at my wedding cake steps to circulate it under and behind them.

Anyway, looks like we'll have to superchlorinate your pool (to shock levels) until we get the CC down.

[ajb8898]

Oh the steps were bad when we took them out on Sunday morning. Definitely lots of algae. It didn't make the whole pool green though. We shocked it right after we took them out and it seemed to kill it.

I've been brushing every day but I do know we have uneven ground and have pockets that probably still have something in them. I haven't heard of a Wall Whale. I'll look into it.

We're going out this afternoon for the chlorine. I only have 1 gallon left here.

[AnnaK]

There are things you can do to keep algae out from under and behind your steps. Take a look at the link in my signature (Step Weights), it might give you some ideas suitable for your steps. When you brush pay close attention to where the steps used to sit, that's likely your algae source. Keeping the water at shock level will kill them and with the pump running they'll eventually filter out. But you MUST maintain shock level of 15 ppm until your chlorine loss is 1 ppm or less overnight. And definitely scoop up what floats to the top.

Had I known about those dirty steps at the beginning of our discussion, or that you've had patches of algae coming to the surface for weeks, I would have advised you to shock the pool right away and we might be a little ahead of the game.

[ajb8898]

Apologies, I thought I mentioned the steps as part of the history and even went back to check but it's not there. I guess when we shocked Sunday and then the test came back free of algae Monday I thought it was a non-issue. I brushed and vacuumed the spot obsessively on Sunday after shocking.
Once we got the steps out, I saw that was probably the issue all along but I really thought it was a non-issue once we got them out Sunday. In any case, hopefully this will help. I'm so ready for the kit to come in. I keep checking the tracking hoping it magically comes tomorrow. Is there anything at Walmart we can get that will measure just the chlorine? My liquid kit only goes up to 5.

[ajb8898]

OK 2.5 gallons of chlorine is in the pool.

[aylad]

You can force your kit to read higher..it's ballpark, but it's close, and will work until your Taylor kit comes in...

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?10073-Testing-high-chlorine-levels-(without-a-good-testkit)

Janet

[ajb8898]

Oh, thanks, Janet! I've read about that several times on the boards the past few days and totally forgot about it. I'll pick up some tonight so I can test it!

[Watermom]

Send your pic to poolforum@gmail.com and reference the URL of this thread

[ajb8898]

OK I tried it with distilled water and did 1 part pool and 2 parts distilled. It's hitting in between 1.5 and 3 so it seems like it already eaten everything I put in this afternoon if I'm seeing this right. I had my sister look and she also agreed that's what it looked like. How much should I put in now?

[Watermom]

Keep your chlorine at the needed level based on your CYA level. (See the Best Guess Chlorine Chart in my signature below.) For reference to help you figure out doses, in your pool, each quart will add 1ppm of chlorine. Add enough bleach to get back to shock level. Try and keep it at shock level until you can go from sundown one evening til withing 2 hours of sunrise without losing more than 1ppm of chlorine. Then, keep it at shock level for one additional day for added insurance. Then you can let the chlorine level drift back down. Run your pump 24/7 while you are trying to clear this up and clean the filter as needed.

[ajb8898]

Bless my poor husband, he went back and got a new pool store reading.

I put in 1.5 gallon last night and another 1.5 early this morning.

CYA: 42
TC: 14
FC: 14
pH: 7.5
TA: 137
ATA: 124

Still looking cloudy but it looks like it killed whatever was growing.

[aylad]

So do you mean that you didn't lose any chlorine overnight, or that you had to add 1.5 gallons this morning to get back up to the 14 ppm? If you didn't lose any chlorine overnight, keep it at shock level for at least another day, as Watermom suggested, and then you can let it come down, but never below 3 ppm.

[ajb8898]

After Anna told me to put in 2.5 gallons yesterday afternoon to shock it, I had to put in another 3 gallons between last night and this morning to get it to that 14.

[ajb8898]

Gah! I just got a message from USA General Store/Amazon that they are going through "stock replenishment" and can't get me my Taylor kit until late next week even though I was expecting it to be delivered tomorrow. Shoot me now.

[AnnaK]

I'd cancel the amazon order and get it from www.amatoind.com. http://www.amatoind.com/k2006c-taylor-test-p-263.html. Amazon should have told you much sooner than now that they're out of stock. Although, with the long weekend who knows when they can get it to you.

Any more algae floaters coming up?

[ajb8898]

Yes, they gave me the option to cancel so I did that and ordered the one from amatoind. Still will probably be end of next week :(

No major algae coming up. I think I saw one small piece all day. I've emptied the sock several times today. Lots of bugs and surprisingly sand. I think we did a poor job of rinsing after backwashing for several times and it came out. Just my guess because we haven't had a bag break.