Pool Nub

[Michaelam]

Just installed a Wilbar 33' round x 54" AGP (~28,000 gallons). Equipped with a CircuPool RJ60 SWCG, 1.5 HP motor/pump & a 150 ft^2 cartridge filter.

Pool has been up for about two weeks & full of tap water for about 10 days. To make a long story short, the SWCG arrived way late and was the wrong voltage to boot. Finally got it functional yesterday. However, I let the water circulate for the duration having added only ~800 lbs of salt. Saturday and Sunday we had inches of rain, and voilà, pretty blue water was instantly green. Soooo,

Last night I got the SWCG up and running on "super chlorination," tested (with a 5 way kit that came with the pool; Taylor K-1000, FAS-DPD K-2000, & Saltwater Test Kit on the way) and got the following:

5/15 PM
Salt 3100 ppm (read from controller)
pH >8.2 (acid drop test took 18 drops to get pH in 7.6-7.8 region)
Cl- non-detectable

Added 4 cups Muriatic Acid

******************
5/16 AM
pH still >8.2

Added 4 cups Muriatic Acid

******************

5/16 PM
pH >8.2, but acid drop test only took ~8 drops to get into the 7.6-7.8 region
Cl- non-detectable
TA 130 ppm

Water around perimeter of pool has turned blue, center is still a murky green

Installed BleachCalc, plugged and chugged and came up with 6 gallons of bleach to get to 15 ppm CL-

Have not yet added any additional Muriatic Acid, but did add 3 bottles of 1.42 gallon 6% bleach (4.26 gallons). Have SWCG bypassed for next four hours.

Within 15 minutes could tell a visible difference.

Questions: Am I on the right track? When should I add additional acid? Wait until next evening for additional bleach? My current test kit has no test for CYA, but a strip (I know) shows basically non-detectable; when should I add CYA and how much?

BTW, this is a great resource. I've been lurking for several days, but had to, pardon the pun, take the plunge. Arrggggggghhhhhhh

[aylad]

You are on the right track. You can go ahead and add a little more acid, but keep in mind that high chlorine levels give falsely high pH results, so you probably need to do that while the chlorine is low. Once you get the green cleared up, go ahead and add your CYA-- follow your SWCG manual to see what your unit requires. Having the right amount of CYA will help your cell last longer.

[Michaelam]

To continue the above, tests this morning yielded (still waiting on the FAS-DPD K-2000):

CL- >10 ppm
pH >8.2 (acid drop 15 drops to get to ~7.6)
TA 120-130 ppm

Left as is and headed to work. Tests this evening:

Water blue, but cloudy
Cl- non-detectable (no stabilizer, all day sun, oxidation)
pH >8.2 (acid drop ~ 5 drops to get to 7.6)
TA 150 ppm
NaCl 4200 ppm (ideal is 3500, 3000 is too low, so I'm not going to feed and bleed at this time)

Added 3 cups HCl

Will add ~5 gallons of bleach before bed

Questions:
1) Why is pH still high - from day one? (neighbor's pH has always been low - same water)

2) Based on above recommendation (no green), will it be ok to add CYA tomorrow?

3) Any additional suggestions?

[PoolDoc]

+ Add 4 gallons of PLAIN 6% bleach each evening
+ Add 1/2 gallon of muriatic acid; test pH following AM (adding acid page linked in my sig)
+ Turn off your SWCG -- you're just wearing it out, and it's not all that helpful in this situation, anyhow. (Use SWCG to MAINTAIN clean pools; not clean up swamps!)
+ There are all sorts of reasons why your pH might be high -- not going to speculate. Let's get your pool cleaned up, and then see if you have a pH problem.
+ Do not worry about salt levels, TA, CH, etc till your pool is clean.
+ Do worry about CYA: what was your stabilizer level on closing this fall, and what is it now?

[Watermom]

Test your pH when your chlorine is low and you're more likely to get a more accurate result. (When your chlorine is below 5ppm or with a Taylor K-2006, when it is below 15ppm.)

[Michaelam]

Here's an update:

Water is now clear. SWCG still off. Adding 4 gallons 6% bleach per night. Here's my dilemma: I measure pH when Chlorine is low - in the evening so that I get a more accurate reading. Using a phenol test, I get a very light pink color (as in a light shade of the highest on the scale), which appears to be 7.8 to 8.2. I have been second checking with strips, and they indicate 7.8 to 8.4. My problem is that when I do an acid drop test to see how much I should add to get pH lower, it doesn't progress through any of the colors on the pH scale - it goes from the light pink to almost clear. Sooo, I've been hesitant to add any more acid. In short, I need some advice on how to proceed.

[PoolDoc]

Increase the number of drops of phenol red you use, and see if you can get a more definite color.

[Michaelam]

Started SWCG this morning before I left for work. When first started, it is programmed to run on "super chlorinate" for three hours. Got home this evening to crystal clear water, and was finally able to do a full test set using the K-2006. Here are the results:

FC: 9 ppm
CC: 1 ppm
TC: 10 ppm (Did a second check using OTO and came up with about 4 ppm) Up until this point, when I get home, there is typically 0 ppm Cl in the evening (left over from bleach add night before & no CYA)
pH: ~7.6 (1 drop of acid took it to ~7.4)
TA: 120 ppm
Hardness: 130 ppm
CYA: ZERO (hadn't added any at this point)

SWCG manual calls for the following:

FC: 1-3 ppm (I'm out of spec high)
pH: 7.2-7.8 (though the manual also says these pools tend to settle out around 7.8)
TA: 100-200
Hardness: 200-300 (I'm out of spec low)
CYA: 30-60 ppm (I'm out of spec low)

I used bleachcalc and came up with ~7 lbs CYA for a 30 ppm move. However, I only added 3 lbs tonight.

Questions:
1) My SWCG is oversized, I assume after tomorrow, I will need to dial it back somewhat. True?

2) Is the hardness level a concern? If so, what should I do?

3) If bleachcalc is correct, I should see ~15 ppm CYA tomorrow. Correct? Should I then make another add to slowly get into spec? Once I'm there (30-60), what is ideal?

Thanks for all the help. This site is great. I'm already getting glazed over stares when I tell people I'm using the BBBSWCG method of pool chemistry control. :)

[PoolDoc]

? #1 => Yes, turn the unit down as needed.

? #2 => Do NOT raise the calcium level, yet.

? #3 => Not necessarily, CYA can take several days to dissolve.

And, more:

4. Do try to run high CYA (~80 ppm) for most SWCGs; Do NOT try to run 1 - 3 ppm FC -- it's too low.

A number of guys are running SWCG systems with FC = 5% of CYA . . . but many of them (most?) are in western, or west coast areas that are dry and do not have the humidity, thunderstorms and the like that can leave algae in every bit of dirt and on every leaf. I'd recommend the higher levels you see in my Best Guess Chart (blue signature block).

[Michaelam]

Update:
After our first three days of use, here are my latest results from tonight:

FC: 6.8
CC: .6

pH: 7.6
TA: 120
Hardness: 130
CYA: ~55

NaCl: 4200

Chlorine is a little high, but I'm going to try the SWCG internal timer to dial back production at night. With the exception of hardness - recommended 200-300 - everything else is in spec. I've lost some water due to evap, splashing, etc, so I'm going to need to add soon. That will get my NaCl closer to the ideal 3500 ppm. What about hardness? What should I do to adjust? Any special concerns for making a water add - other than check chemistry after?

Thanks for all of your help - my pool and water are looking great! (The neighbor's kids have already abandoned their pool and parked in mine. lol)

[PoolDoc]

You may want to push your CYA higher -- SWCG's run a bit better at the recommended 80 ppm CYA. But do NOT follow the mfg's 1-3 ppm FC recommendation; instead use the 5% rule (FC = 5% of CYA, or 4 ppm with CYA=80) as an ABSOLUTE minimum. Alabama is more like Chattanooga (the 5% rule was tested more on the West Coast in dry areas, where there wasn't algae in every puddle and on every leaf!), so you probably want to use my Best Guess chart, which is somewhat higher.

I wouldn't worry about the hardness (CH) - just use borax to raise your pH if needed and do not use bicarb or pH up (soda ash, sodium carbonate).

[Michaelam]

Since the 25th I've run my cleaner 2X and programmed my SWCG to not run between 10P & 6A & NOTHING else. Pool has been used every day by 3-6 people. Here's the latest as of tonight:

FC: 6
CC: none detectable
pH: 7.6
TA: 120
Hardness: 150

Couldn't test for CYA because I ran out of reagent - the K-2006 only came with enough to test CYA 6X. Need to order more. At any rate, water is crystal clear, looks and feels great. Can barely even tell it's salt water - & there is no Chlorine smell. Based on previous advice, I want to get CYA up a bit, but other than that, I'm down to what I hope to be my last couple of questions for a while. Is it now possible, chemistry-wise, for me to program my pump to shut down along with the SWCG (10PM - 6AM)? Anything special to consider for doing so?

Again, thanks for all the advice - it's been a great help!

[PoolDoc]

I can't think of a reason not to go ahead and shut down the pump, too. Just remember to run it a few minutes AFTER you shut down the SWCG, to clear the lines.