Hello summer, hello algae, hello pool forum!

[True Blue]

Hi to all!

I decided to open the pool up today. As per usual, we already have an algae bloom going on. I connected everything, added water, started the filter, poored in a couple of gallons of bleach and used the pool/bag to clean the bottom.

About five hours later, I went to take the readings:

CYA - 0
FC - 11 ppm
CC - 3 ppm
pH - 7.5
Alkalinity - 70 ppm

I am hoping to get a handle on/conquer the algae in two weeks, as I will be leaving for most of the summer. I have some friends that will be coming to take care of the pool, the house, etc, and hope to be able to just explain the upkeep (they've helped before) and not have to help them learn to fight the algae bloom.

What recommendations do you have? I know that I need to get the CYA up and I thought that I'd buy a small container of dicholoro tabs for that. Is the pH a tad high and the alkalinity a tad low?

[Watermom]

Your pH and alk are both ok but if you are going to use trichlor tabs or dichlor powder, you need to keep an eye on pH as it will drop. Having said that, right now while you are fighting algae, trichlor pucks are not the way to go. You cannot shock a pool to needed algae-fighting levels with tabs.

I have a feeling that you are going to find that it is going to take a LOT of bleach. Did you have a CYA reading when you closed the pool? Pools that close with a CYA level and open to none and have a high CC typically have the same scenario going on that we frequently see in the spring. Bacteria "eat" CYA over the winter and "poop" out ammonia. It takes a lot of bleach to break down the ammonia. Keep hammering your pool with bleach and try and keep the chlorine high. Also, run your pump 24/7 and keep an eye on your filter pressure.

After you get your pool cleared up, you can bring the CYA up.

Good to see you back this year!

[True Blue]

Thanks, Watermom.

So you'd recommend not to worry about the CYA until the algae is gone? I thought that I'd be killing two birds with one stone in using the pucks. But I'll stick with just the bleach. Am I right in thinking that I want to maintain a 15 ppm FC with no CYA?

Also, my pressure guage appears to be...malfunctioning. It shows a pressure of 42 psi...in my hand. When I screw it in and turn the pump on, it goes up to 56 psi. I figured that the difference meant that I was actually running at 14 psi. Thoughts?

[BigDave]

Get a new guage. That one's done.

You need to keep your FC above 10 with 0 CYA.

Pucks don't dissolve fast enough to fight algae. You can use granular dichlor to bring your FC to shock level and add CYA at the same time. Trouble is, as your CYA increases so will your target shock value.

If you use nothing but dichlor to bring up your CYA, according to The Pool Calculator (http://www.poolcalculator.com/), you'll need 5 or 6 pounds of dichlor to reach a CYA between 40 and 50. Each pound of dichlor will raise your FC by almost 9ppm and your CYA by 8ppm.

If you want to do this, buy the dichlor and some borax as dichlor will lower your pH.

Run the filter 24x7.
Be sure there's no chemicals (other than pool water) in the filter or anywhere between the skimmer and the filter.
Add a half pound of dichlor slowly to skimmer.
Test FC, CC, and pH as often as possible, at least twice a day.
Each time FC gets back near 10, add another half pound.
Whenever pH gets near the bottom of your test, adjust it up with Borax.
After 1.5 lbs total dichlor, add another half pound each time FC gets near 12.
After 3.5 lbs total dichlor, add another half pound each time FC gets near 15.
After 5 or 6 pounds total dichlor, switch to chlorinating with bleach and maintain your shock value of 15.
If at any time during this process, your water clears up, and you have 0 ppm(or nearly 0) CC, and you lose less than 1ppm FC from sundown to sunup, maintain shock value for one more day then let the FC drift down to normal levels for your CYA level as found in Ben's Best Guess Chart (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html). Test for CYA after fourth pound of dichlor to be sure we aren't way off with the pool size.

[aylad]

If the pressure gauge is not returning to zero when the pump is off, I don't think I'd trust it--it may be okay but who knows for sure? I do know that replacing a faulty gauge is MUCH cheaper and less hassle than removing sand to repair a filter problem caused by not backwashing frequently enough!! :)

Yes, you need to maintain 15 ppm FC with no CYA....you're already on the right track!!

[True Blue]

I think that I can follow that plan.

I will certainly get a new pressure gauge. I am not sure what happened to that one. It was working when I took it off at the end of the season and stored it in a box in my house that went undisturbed all winter.

[True Blue]

It's raining here today, but I did go out and check my readings this morning. I decided to use my old OTO kit. It showed about 1 ppm FC, which I expected. What I did NOT expect was it to show my pH at 8.2. That surely is in error, as it was 7.5 with my Taylor kit yesterday and all I've added to it was bleach. I know that bleach is basic, but I've not added enough to bring the pH up that high!

I did add another 1.5 gallons of bleach to bring the FC back up. I'll be purchasing the dichloro later today and will use that. Oh...once there is a break in the rain, I'll go out and test with my Taylor kit.

The water is already looking better. It is switching from the swamp look to a cloudy blue-green, which is not all that unappealing, except that I know that its a combination of dead and living (but soon to be dead) algae.

[True Blue]

I just tested the pH again, this time with the Taylor kit, which only measures to a pH of 8.0. The color was off the chart (bright red-purple, certainly above the 8.0 mark).

Again, all I've added is bleach and tap water (which I tested to be about 7.6)...and now the rain.

What would cause the spike in my pH?

[BigDave]

Did you test FC and CC with your k-2006? What were the results?
How are you collecting the water sample? I try to take the water from about elbow depth - hold the sample tube upside down until my arm is in up to the elbow.
The pump is on and mixing the pool , yes? Did you collect the sample near where you dosed the bleach?

[True Blue]

Did you test FC and CC with your k-2006? What were the results?
How are you collecting the water sample? I try to take the water from about elbow depth - hold the sample tube upside down until my arm is in up to the elbow.
The pump is on and mixing the pool , yes? Did you collect the sample near where you dosed the bleach?

I do the collecting method that you speak of, upside down, well beneath the surface. The pump is/has been running. I did collect both samples near where I dose with the bleach, but the first sample this morning was at least 14 hours since I last added anything.

I did not do a FC and CC test with the Taylor kit. I'll do that in a bit, as the rain is supposed to be ending soon.

[True Blue]

Testing with the Taylor kit, "upstream" from where I add the bleach:

FC: 4
CC: 2.5
pH: >8.0

My pump is currently off, as a large amount of rain will sometimes trip the breaker.

Any thoughts on what would cause a spike in pH? It certainly wasn't that high yesterday. Again, I know that bleach is basic, as is the ammonia that the algae would be producing.

[Watermom]

Did you have torrential rain which caused a lot of rippling on the surface? Aeration raises pH. Just a thought. I wouldn't expect that kind of increase though. My rain is usually acidic and lowers my pH. Go ahead and drop the pH some.

[True Blue]

Did you have torrential rain which caused a lot of rippling on the surface? Aeration raises pH. Just a thought. I wouldn't expect that kind of increase though. My rain is usually acidic and lowers my pH. Go ahead and drop the pH some.

No, the rain was steady, but lengthy...probably 12 hours straight. I'll be adding my first dose of dichloro tomorrow. That should bring the pH down some, shouldn't it?

[Watermom]

Yes, but not immediately. You typically don't see the pH fall until the dichlor is used up so give it a little time.

[True Blue]

I am...befuddled, to put it mildly. My pH has dropped from 8.2 on Sunday to 7.2 today, with only the addition of bleach. If you'll recall, when I opened the pool on Satuday, the pH was 7.5. My FC had dropped to 7.5, so I added my first dose of dichlor this evening. CC was 2.5. The good news is that I seem to have gotten rid of most organic matter off the bottom. My water is cloudy blue.

Any thoughts on the pH yo-yo?

[True Blue]

I'll add that the alkalinity is at 70 ppm...and that I ordered a pressure gauge that should arrive by Thursday.

[BigDave]

I don't know about the pH, you've got a lot of chemistry going in your pool and pH is difficult to predict. But, we do know how to measure it and how to adjust it. As you're near the bottom of your pH scale, you need to raise the pH with Borax. Half a box slowly in the skimmer with the pump running, let it mix a couple hours and measure it again. As you'll be dosing with dichlor, we can guess the pH will drop as the chlorine is consumed so let's aim for a relatively high pH - 7.6-7.8. Another reason for somewhat higher pH while getting rid of amonia is that the intermediate CCs may be less noxious at higher pH. But do try to keep it in range.

[True Blue]

Well, I'm just now starting to get the FC to somewhat stay and my CC is dropping. I lost about 3 ppm FC last night and about the same since this morning. CC was 1 ppm each time. Also, I now have some CYA with the addition of the dichlor that I have used. I am to 40 ppm CYA. My pH is was continued to bounce a bit, as I didn't have any borax and have been too busy to run to the store for a few days (20 minute drive one way to get borax), but I have some now.

The water is still very cloudy and since this morning has had a white splotchy film on it. I can't quite tell if it is some sort of foam or not. Any ideas?

[True Blue]

Anybody there?

[chem geek]

Just keep the FC at shock level for your CYA level and run the pump 24/7 so that the filter can help clear the pool. Don't worry about the film/foam. It should dissipate as the water clears up. Shocking is a process, not a one-time event.

[True Blue]

Just keep the FC at shock level for your CYA level and run the pump 24/7 so that the filter can help clear the pool. Don't worry about the film/foam. It should dissipate as the water clears up. Shocking is a process, not a one-time event.

I'm not worried about the film. I would, however, like to know what is causing it. I don't just do things because someone says, I'd like them to make sense to me.

I will surmize that one of the additives in the dichlor that I had been using caused it. Does anyone think that this is true or is there another answer?

[BigDave]

Anybody there?

Sorry I didn't see your post - Cub Scout Camporee, electronics are prohibited. Chem Geek is right, of course, stay the course, maintain shock level, brush, run the filter 24/7. Keep it up until you lose less than 1ppm FC overnight, have nearly 0ppm CC, and your water is clear. The keep FC at shock for one more day.

[True Blue]

Someone with a similar situation in another thread was encouraged to turn their pump off to see if the cloudy water would disappear, as suspended particles fell to the bottom. Should I do this? If so, how long would the pump need to be off in order to tell if this is the problem? Also, I assume that I would still be keeping the chlorine at shock levels, I assume just by adding it to several spots in the pool.

[True Blue]

Another thought...should I be operating at "shock" or "shock plus" levels? I originally started out with no cya, so a shock of 15 ppm was what I was using. Now, I have 45 ppm CYA and am running FC levels of around 18 ppm. Should I bump it up to over 30?

[aylad]

I think you're fine to leave it at the shock level that you're currently running--the "shock plus" is mostly for mustard algae. I don't know the source of the film that you're speaking of, but usually foam/film will not settle down to the bottom--it takes filtering and chlorine to remove.

Usually, we recommend that you leave the filter running until the algae is dead, and until the filter has taken out everything it can--and at that point, THEN try turning the pump off to see if the remainder will settle. However, in your case, I just noticed that you have a 1.5 hp pump on a 7600 gallon pool--that's a HUGE pump for that amount of water, and if your filter is undersized for that pump, you might be better off just to put the pump in recirculate mode until all the algae is dead and you're no longer losing chlorine, and then turning it off, letting it settle, then vac'ing it out. Have you and one of the equipment folks (mas985, Pooldoc, etc) talked about your filter/pump match already?

[True Blue]

I know that the pump is oversized. Trust me, I won't be "pool stored" on pumps again. This will be its third season in use and I did have an algae bloom last year (which is how I discovered this site and learned that the great "deal" on a higher HP pump that the pool store pushed wasn't such a great deal). Anyway, it is what it is and I need to figure out how to use what I have to take care of my problem.

[aylad]

Ok, in that case I'd do what I posted above--try running it in recirc mode while you're still shocking, and when you're finished, leave the chlorine high but turn it off and see if it will settle where you can vacuum it. Once that's done and you're able to turn the filter back on, it should finish taking care of the "film" if it's not gone already.

[True Blue]

Why are some people (with similar situations) being told to turn their pumps off and others told to keep them running?

[aylad]

Our general advice has always been to keep the pump/filter running so that the chlorine will kill off the algae and allow the filter to catch it, and that seems to have always worked in the past. However...this year in particular there are so many more people with cloudy water conditions that won't clear up than we've ever had, and pools that are not responding to the methods that have always worked before. We're not sure why, but we're thinking it had to do with the overabundance of algae this year, probably partly due to the warmer winter we've had. Ben is working on a theory that, in some cases, the algae is being pushed through the filter media, thus breaking it into even smaller particles that the filter then can't catch. This can happen with oversized pumps, undersized filters, DE or cart filters with live algae, or even some sand filters in pools overloaded with dead algae, as well as pools where the owners have put assorted "goop" into their pool before coming here in an effort to solve their problems. Some of that "goop" doesn't work so well with filtering. So...the advice we're giving now is sort of more dependent on each person's equipment and situation, rather than a blanket one-size-fits-all situation.

[BigDave]

Several posters here this year have been unable to clear cloudy pools after killing all the algae and getting rid of CC. Oversized pumps with undersized sand filters is common to many of these pools. Ben has surmised that these pumps may be pushing dead algae through the sand filter and back to the pool, grinding the dead algae into particles too small to filter. "Let it settle and vacuum to waste" is an attempt to clear these minute particles.

Would you please give us (I can't find them if you have) pump and motor model number and filter make and model.

In the meantime, keep your FC above 15 (18 is fine) and brush the pool regularly until you lose less than 1ppm FC overnight and have no (or nearly no) CC.

You can move the filter to recirc if you want. Did you get the guage? Has your pressure been rising?

BBB for clearing a mess: :)
Bleach - Bleach - Bleach, Brush - Brush - Brush

note: Aylad and I were posting at the same time (I'm slower) but we're saying the same thing.

[True Blue]

I did get a new gauge. The pressure has only risen a little bit. I'm still not to the point of only losing 1 ppm FC overnight and my CC is usually 1 ppm, too.

I'll look for the model information that you requested.

[True Blue]

I am running low on POP. I'm not sure where you can buy that!

To amuse myself, and because I am a science teacher, I'm running two experiments. In the first, I have a clear glass of pool water and am simply letting it sit to see if anything settles out of it. In the second experiment, I have another glass of clear pool water, but have added a tsp of dichlor.

I don't know if I'll see anything happen and if it does will mean anything, but I've just got to do something besides add bleach, test, brush and vaccuum.

[True Blue]

Things MIGHT be turning my way. My CC level is staying at 0.5 ppm or zero. My chlorine loss overnight is declining (only about 4 ppm last night). Then, today when I backwashed the filter, I noticed quite a bit of white...something being pushed out. Is that what the dead algae would look like?

Also, from my experiments last night, the glass with the dichlor added is almost clear, while the one that I didn't put anything in looks the same cloudy/hazy as before.

[True Blue]

Things MIGHT be turning my way. My CC level is staying at 0.5 ppm or zero. My chlorine loss overnight is declining (only about 4 ppm last night). Then, today when I backwashed the filter, I noticed quite a bit of white...something being pushed out. Is that what the dead algae would look like?

Also, from my experiments last night, the glass with the dichlor added is almost clear, while the one that I didn't put anything in looks the same cloudy/hazy as before.

Can anyone answer the bold?

[Watermom]

Yes. What you are filtering out is most likely dead algae.

[True Blue]

Well, it has been almost a month since I opened my pool and started this thread. After who knows how many gallons of chlorine and how many $100s spent on running a pump 24/7, with a cloudy pool still losing more than 1ppm of Cl each night, I decided to go a different route than the "stay the course! Bleach and filtering will clear it up!" and added a floc. Results: a pool that we could see the bottom of, a precipitate that was vacuumed to waste and happy friends and family that can swim.

My thoughts:
1) I wasted too much money and time in "staying the course."
2) People need to be referred to doing the bucket test with floc much more quickly (or at all...)
3) BBB is not the answer to all pool chemistry problems.

[PoolDoc]

BBB means different things to different people. Unfortunately, a lot of people mean literally "bleach, borax and baking soda". But it was never that, to me (and it was my idea!). Bleach, borax and baking soda were just tools to achieve the best, easiest and cheapest pool care -- sometimes they are the best tool; sometimes now. So, if you mean you can't solve all pool problems with actual bleach, borax and baking soda . . . I've ALWAYS thought that, myself.

I don't disagree with what you are saying about floc, either. Well not exactly.

The problem is, we have had no way to recommend it. There are 3 possible flocs we can recommend: alum, PAC (polyaluminum chloride) and 'others'.

Alum works well in some cases and not others, but it's ALWAYS tricky to use. When potable water plants use it, they run jar tests with varying doses of alum, at varying pH and TA levels, till they find the combo that works on their influent water THAT time. Next time, they run those again, since the doses may not be the same. And sometimes, there isn't a dose that works well, so they go to plan B. That makes it tough to recommend to people who aren't sure what the difference is between TA (which has to be fairly high to use alum) and CH (which doesn't have much effect).

Polyaluminum chloride works a lot like alum, but it's easier to use. Well, if you can find it. Currently, I only know of one pool brand product that is definitely PAC, and it's not commonly available. I know of a couple of others that may be PAC, but I'm not sure.

And then there's the "OTHER" category. There are a number of water treatment chemical companies that make some specialty flocs. Some of these are used by pool chemical companies. Which ones? I don't know. Where are the technical guide documents on applying those chemicals? Don't know. Can the pool chemical company labels be trusted? Not as a rule.

OK. A step further. If you use a floc wrong -- for example if you DON'T let it settle fully, but instead blow it through your filter, you can 'break' the floc particles. Then, the floc works in reverse: instead of settling the particles, it keeps them suspended. Joy! This is often going to happen on an AG pool like yours, and if the floc got shoved through the first time, you KNOW the fragments aren't going to be caught.

OK, so we can do a bucket test. Well, maybe. Did you do a bucket test first? Or did you just get some floc and use it? I'm betting it was the latter. That's what most people do. The bucket test is tedious, and based on my experience so far this year, about 1/2 the people trying it, will screw it up the first time. But, it's the ONLY way to test a mystery floc (which includes 90% of the products available).

And that brings up another issue. In order to DO the bucket test, pool owners first have to go out and spend ~$20 on a floc product. Again, based on results so far, the product will fail to work at all 50% of the time, be moderately successful 25% of the time, and be successful just 1/4 of the time. How do you think all those people -- about 1/2 -- with a useless $20 quart of floc will feel?

If I could guarantee the result you got, we'd recommend it far, far more. I'm actively looking for a reliable and consistent source of PAC which is fairly predictable in effect. But I don't have it, yet.

What is predictable is that good filtration with good (not excess) circulation works almost all the time. So, we can recommend that.

And, there are some puzzling aspects of your report. I can understand that a floc could give you the clarity you were seeking. But, I'm not currently aware of ANY mechanism by which that same floc could reduce CC formation. I'll ask Chem Geek about it. But it may be you just got doubly lucky: you happened purchase a floc product that worked well on your pool, AND you happened to floc the pool as you got to the end of the oxidizable goo. I'm not saying that IS the case; I'm only saying that it could be, and I have no way to know which one is right.

So, for now, we have to stay with what DOES work: a bigger filter, with adequate filter sand, with a smaller pump works all the time, instead of just some of the time.

But, I'm really happy, if a little puzzled, that the floc worked out for you.

[chem geek]

If the CC were from chlorine combined with organics in dead algae, then a floc could have settled them to the bottom so that CC isn't registered anymore. That seems plausible. Normally this sort of reduction occurs when the algae gets removed by filtration but obviously that wasn't working in this case.

Just so we know and can keep track of these things, what brand (name and manufacturer) of floc was used? I've heard of good results with OMNI Liquid Floc Plus for a flocculant and have personal experience with GLB Clear Blue for a clarifier.

[True Blue]

1) I did do a bucket test.
2) My CC reading had been at 0.5 or less for several weeks. My FC loss nightly, however, remained above 1.
3) Here is the floc that I used: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002KT6TY/poolbooks

[chem geek]

OK thanks. That product contains aluminum chloride (along with polymeric clarifiers) which they technically call a non-alum floc because it is technically not "alum" which is aluminum sulfate hydrate, though I would say that is misleading since both form aluminum hydroxides (several species, many of these positively charged) in the water which is the actual "floc" itself. GLB is a good brand that is reasonably priced.