High PH - Feeling stupid

[Newbie65]

TC = 0
ALK = 200 or >
PH = 8.2 or >
CYA = ? used up all of test regeant....
33' round 4' deep ABG

Had the pool a cloudy blue, then had a leak, husband working OT no time to fix pool. Finally got leak fixed after draining below skimmer and refilling. Now I'm back to swampy green. I was told by "pool chemical hotline" that ph needs to be lowered before wasting shock or chlorine. On my own, thinking that more had to be better and quicker, poured in 7 lbs of ph minus on Tuesday. Called hotline last night was told to just add 2 more lbs. of ph minus. It is now Thursday and no change in ph. Called "hotline" was told that I should only have added 4 lbs of ph minus for every 20,000 of water every day. Now "hotline" tells me to wait 4 to 5 days and do nothing other than test every day. Any ideas on what I should really do? Will check here first from now on.
Thanks.

[CarlD]

Yes! Get a test kit ASAP! Even a $7 OTO/pH drop kit will help!

If your pH is below 6.9 it can damage your pool. If you cannot measure below the lowest reading in the kit, it's TOO LOW! If so add 1 box of 20 Mule Team Borax (that's right, Borax) and wait 6-12 hours, measure your pH again, wait, measure, until ph is above 7.3 (but below 7.8). Your Total Alk will surely be lower then as well.

Next, you need to dump in 6 gallons of regular 5.25% bleach, NOW! Within 6 hours, I'll be chlorine will be 0 and you'll need to add another 6 gallons (or 4 LARGE bottles of 6% ultra bleach). You want your chlorine level to go to 15 and keep it there until your water clears.

I'd rather see you get a better test kit--check the kit at PoolSolutions.com or the FAS-DPD kit from Leslies web site.

[Newbie65]

Thanks for the reply, however my ph is 8.2 or greater, i'm trying to lower it not raise it. And I have a test kit, just out of the CYA regeants. Since my ph is high I was wondering if the hotline was correct in saying not to put any bleach in until I get it lowered. Thanks again. Any other comments are welcome!

[mwsmith2]

Well, personally, I'd use muriatic acid to lower the pH. If you are at 8.2, start with 2 quarts of muriatic. Circulate 2 - 3 hours and test again. Since your alk is really high, that's what's causing the problem in trying to reduce your pH. You'll probably have to slug a good bit of acid in the pool before it moves.

Definitely get some Cl in there. It WILL help. I'm consistently amazed at the order of what pool "professionals" tell you to fix the green pool problem. When I was a new owner, they did the same thing to me...add the bleach last, and wait a day between chemical additions. CRAZY! To hit 15 ppm, you are going to need about 6 gallons of plain unscented 6% bleach.

I'd get that acid in there, dribble it around the edge of the pool. Wait about 15 mins for it to disperse and then add the bleach through the skimmer. You should see the green fade as you watch. :) Maintain 15 ppm until the water is clear. Watch your pH as bleach has a tendency to raise it.

Michael

[KurtV]

Newb, I don't think it will hurt anything to get some chlorine in there now, but you do need to get the pH down ASAP. As you probably know, your pH could be very, very high as all your test is telling you is that it's somewhere over 8.2

You'll probably get quicker results with muriatic acid than the pH minus (which I think is dry acid or sodium bisulphate). You can get it at pool stores, most Home Depots and Lowes', etc. Since we really don't know how high the pH is, I'd add a quart or even a half gallon of acid, wait a few hours, retest, and repeat.

Be careful with the muriatic if you use it. Stay upwind of the fumes and wear eye protection and gloves.

[Newbie65]

Thank you! Thank you! I will buy acid and bleach at lunch and go home after work and put it in. I checked my alk this morning and it was at 170. I will add the acid then the bleach and check in 2 hours. Hopefully, this will get me on track. How high do I need to keep my TC readings and for how long?

[KurtV]

...I checked my alk this morning and it was at 170. I will add the acid then the bleach and check in 2 hours.
I usually wait about an hour after dosing with one before adding the other.
Hopefully, this will get me on track. How high do I need to keep my TC readings and for how long?
You need to get your Free Chlorine (FC), not Total Chlorine (TC), up to shock levels, test frequently (like 3x per day if you can), and add more bleach after each test to return the FC to shock level. You can use "Ben's Best Guess Table" to determine the shock level for your pool but it's a function of the amount of CYA you have in the water. So, you're going to have to get more CYA reagent or take a sample to the pool store to have it tested for CYA. In the interim, it will probably be OK to use 15 ppm as a guestimate. As Michael said, it will take about six gallons of 6% bleach initially to get to 15ppm. You'll need to keep bringing the water to that level of FC until you hold FC overnight. It will probably take at least several days.

Best of luck.

[Newbie65]

Okay. Here's the update.... Put in half gallon of acid at 5:45 p.m. waited until 6:30 put in 6 gallons of bleach. Checked the pH at 8:30 still at or above 8.2 Chlorine WAY over 5 ppm, my HTH test kit only goes to 5 which is a nice yellow and my test turned almost orange. Went ahead and added the other half gallon of acid. Also, I felt the side of the pool and I have scaling/roughness, can anybody tell what to do about that? Hopefully in the morning I will awaken to a lower pH reading and a less green pool maybe cloudy blue??? Should I go ahead and brush tonight or just wait til morning?

[Newbie65]

Sat. a.m. - no change in color. Tests show orange cl, ph 7.2 (yipee), alk 150; going to try to get better test kit today so I can try to test cya. Any advice on what to do this afternoon?

[mwsmith2]

Good job on getting the pH down. :) If you are going to go get a test kit, and you have a Leslie's in your area, you might want to look for their High Range Cl test kit. It's a DPD-FAS test that will test up to 50 ppm Cl. It's considerably more accurate than the OTO test, as it will show you within 0.5 ppm where you are at. This will enable you to maintain the Cl level at 15 until the water clears (which is what you should be doing this afternoon, btw :) )

Let us know what happens with the CYA. Aim to keep your pH in the 7.5 range or so for now. We'll decide what to do once we find out the CYA level.

Michael

[mbar]

You can raise your ph while lowering your alk by facing your eyeballs up to aerate your water ( your pool return eyeballs, he he). Your alk should come down a little - it should be between 80 - 120, so this is a good time to use this method to raise your ph to 7.5

[Newbie65]

No one in my area had the type of kits you recommended. I ended up getting some evil test strips just to get an idea of my cya. They're showing 30-50 which is in range. The strip shows TC of 5 and FC of 10. The drop kit shows bright yellow so I guess 5. How can I figure out my FC and TC since neither the strips or the drop test go up high enough? I thought I saw a thread earlier that showed how to figure it but I've read so many now I can't remember where I saw it. If my levels drop should I wait until evening or go ahead and put bleach in anyway. I don't want to throw money hand over fist I'm spending enough as it is... When should I start brushing and vacuuming? My pool is still green....

[mbar]

Here is the "shot glass method": You can double the reading to 10 by mixing equal amounts of pool water and steam-distilled water. I like to use the "Shot Glass Method" --One shot of pool water, one shot of distilled water. Mix and now measure. If the reading is "5ppm", you have 10ppm. You can keep going - 3 shots will take you to 15ppm and so forth. You will not be able to test for combined chlorine with this method.

The test strips aren't too accurate, but the regular drop based kit with just chlorine and ph will be ok for testing with the method above for now. If you do have a cya of 30 to 50, then you need to have your chlorine at 15 to get to shock level. You will have to keep it there for a couple of days until you clear up all the algae. It is best to keep the chlorine level constant, so you should check at least 2 x a day - 3 times is better. Once you are holding chlorine overnight, then you probably have the algae killed. But since you can't test for combined chlorine right now, you should keep the chlorine levels high for a couple of more days. Remember to backwash and keep your filter running 24/7. Keeping your ph low is ok for now, because chlorine is more effective with a low ph, so I wouldn't worry about raising it for now. You can brush and vacuum right now - the more the better. Your water will clear with high chlorine levels, constant filtering, and regular backwashing. Oh yeah, did I mention patience? I always hate that patience thing!



Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm

[aylad]

You need to start brushing and vaccuming NOW--as well as raising your chlorine to about 12-15 and keeping it there until the green goes away, which means testing and adding enough to get back up to the shock level at least 2 x daily. Right now your pH isn't as much of a concern as your algae problem, so I'd leave the acid alone--the amount of bleach you're going to use up to kill your algae bloom will probably raise your pH a tiny bit to get you back up to the middle of the " normal" range.

Your FC + CC will ALWAYS = TC, so your strip numbers aren't quite right. You'll do better to use Carl's shotglass dilution method that Marie described above along with your drop-based test kit. Keep your filter running, backwash as necessary, and it shouldn't take more than a few days to get your pool back to blue. :)
Janet

[Newbie65]

Well, I've been keeping my chlorine levels high and my pool has finally started turning a pretty aqua blue. I've been vaccuming(sp) and brushing. I think I finally see light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks for all the help everyone! I'm sorry I don't quite understand the shot glass method though, Can someone give me more detailed instructions?

[CarlD]

Here's the Jen-You-Whine CarlD Shot Glass Method!;)

1) Get a shot glass (like you use to mix drinks).
2) Get a gallon of steam distilled water--most mass-market drug chains stock it, and many supermarkets.
3) Mix one shot glass full of pool water with one shot glass full of the distilled in a clean container (like a Pyrex measuring cup).
4) Fill your test cell to the line with the mixture. Add your drops and take the reading.
5) Whatever you read, double it. If it says "3ppm", you have 6ppm. If it reads "5ppm", you have 10ppm.
6) If it's STILL seems like the chorine's too high to read, go to step seven....
7) Mix 1 shot of pool water with TWO shots of distilled water, and re-run the test using that.
8) Now TRIPLE your reading--if it reads "3", it's 9. If it reads "5", it's 15ppm.
9) Going beyond two shots of distilled to 1 shot of pool water is possible (3 shots, quadruple your reading) but you lose accuracy fast. Still if it's the best way of reading chlorine, then you have to do it.

CAVEAT: ONLY use this method to measure chlorine levels. Do not use it for the other tests you run, and do not use it with the FAS-DPD powder test--that goes to 50 to 100ppm of Free Chlorine anyway.

There you have it!

[Simmons99]

CarlD:

I think I am confused in general on testing kits for clorine. I keep reading that Ben's test kit is only accurate up to 15ppm and it is a FAS-DPD test isn't it? (I don't have it so I don't know). Above 15ppm - doesn't it start to bleach the reagent so you can't read it? The OTO clorine test doesn't bleach - but it only reads up to 5ppm?

But then I read that the FAS-DPD is for high clorine readings.

So my confusion is that if you have to shock your pool to a theoretical 25ppm, what do you use to measure it?:confused:

(this may be a totally stupid question, and if my pool was ready and I had the tests- it might make more sense)

[Watermom]

Ben's kit will test to 25 and even beyond. You use the DPD-FAS powder and a water sample. No dilution needed. The dilution method that Carl is explaining above is when you have a test kit that will only measure to 5.

[Newbie65]

Thanks for the dilution explanation! It worked great. My pool is really coming along. The only other problem I have now is the scaling problem on the sides and a few places on the bottom. Anybody have any advice on that?

[CarlD]

You'll have to lower your T/A to do that. Check out the Alkalinity forum for a sticky thread on how to do it. It's a repeated process. High T/A can cause scaling, so start by fixing that first.

[waterbear]

CarlD:

I think I am confused in general on testing kits for clorine. I keep reading that Ben's test kit is only accurate up to 15ppm and it is a FAS-DPD test isn't it? (I don't have it so I don't know). Above 15ppm - doesn't it start to bleach the reagent so you can't read it? The OTO clorine test doesn't bleach - but it only reads up to 5ppm?
The DPD drop test (such as the one in the Taylor K-2005 kit) for FC/TC can bleach out. It is not the same as the FAS-DPD titration test that is in Ben's kit.
But then I read that the FAS-DPD is for high clorine readings.
Correct. (or you can use OTO with dilution of the sample but it will only measure total chlorine)
So my confusion is that if you have to shock your pool to a theoretical 25ppm, what do you use to measure it?:confused:
FAS-DPD
(this may be a totally stupid question, and if my pool was ready and I had the tests- it might make more sense)
Hope ths clears things up.:)

[Simmons99]

It sure does - thanks!

[Newbie65]

Okay, folks here's the newest readings:
TC = 5 after dosing and holding at 15 ppm for 2 or 3 days
PH = 7.2 holding steady after first dose of muriatic acid at beginning of thread
Alk - 180 not really a problem (I don't think) always runs high
CYA - 30 - 50 last time I checked w/strip test

Can't afford Ben's kit right now, daughter just enrolled in college!

I have a 27,260 gallon AG pool, 1.5 hp pump, 300lb Hayward 244T sand filter, w/2 skimmers and 2 returns.

This morning is the first time since May 18 that I have been able to see the bottom. Let me say thanks again to all who helped! My problem now is, I can see light tan stuff on the bottom. The water is not completely clear but clear enough to see the stuff. I got home and vaccumed to waste until my water level caused me to stop. I wasn't able to make a very big dent in the tan stuff, seems like it just moved around.

Since the tan stuff on the bottom is probably algae should I go ahead and raise my chlorine level to 15 or 20 again or just keep vaccuming when I get more water back in the pool?

Do I brush and stir everything up again? I'm really not sure what route to take and I've got bleach bottles coming out the wazoo! :) Recycle day can't get here soon enough!

Hope someone replys soon, it'll be dark soon.

[Pamsel]

I'd like to add a question to this thread. I also have very high PH and over the last 30 hours have put in a total of 1 gal muriatic acid. I have a 14,500 gal pool. So far, the PH has not come down and my TA is also very high -320

I think I should have dumped in a half gallon of acid to start with, but now that I've put a gallon in since noon yesterday, do I wait or should I still go dump another 1/2 gallon in?

I'm maintaining my chlorine at about 10-12ppm - I need a kit that is accurate over 5ppm. Can someone tell me exactly which of Ben's kits to buy? It looks to me on the site that the main one is no longer available?

Thanks!

[mbar]

I asked Waterbear to look at this post about the rising ph and alkalinity, since he is great with pool chemistry :


Marie, I went through the thread , posted, and hopefully explained a few things that are going on. The big red flag for me was '3 month algaecide'. All the ones that I have seen like this are copper! Might explain part of the green water, not to mention the iron! This is YOUR area of expertese so the ball is in your court!:D

As far as the alk and pH...2 possible reasons.
1. It can take a LOT of acid to overcome the high ALK, which is a buffer that keeps the pH from changing, before you start to see the pH move at all.
2 High chlorine levels will interfere with both ALK and pH tests. pH tests will read 8.2 even thoough the pH is much lower because the phenol red has been converted to chlorophenol red which is used to test the pH range of 4.6 to 6.8 and gives the same color at 6.8 that phenol red gives at 8.2! All you really know is that the pH is somehwhere above 6.6![/QUOTE]

[aylad]

Pamsel,
It would keep things a lot less confusing for the responders if you would start your own thread instead of adding a question to an existing thread....you're way more likely to get good answers, and the responders are less likely to get your situation confused with the original poster's problems..

To answer your question, you need to keep adding the acid until your pH starts to move, because it has to come down for your alk to be lowered.

And to measure Cl higher than 5, you can use CarlD's dilution method for a ballpark Cl reading with the test kit you have, or you can get exact measurements up to 50 ppm from the dpd/fas chlorine testing in the PS 234.

Thanks

Janet

[Pamsel]

Thank you Janet, I will stick to my own thread. I guess I was reading and saw this thread which seemed similar to my problem and jumped in. I will remember not to "cross over" from now on.

Thank you Marie, also for your help here. Now, I'll get back to where I belong! :o