Will this work?

[HOF-City]

Hello everyone. I moved into my place last September and and had someone come out to close our pool in October.
It is a 29,000 gallon, vinyl lined pool. It has a Purex Triton Tagelus sand filter, model #TA-60/60D. The pump is a Hayward super pump, model #C48K2N143.

When it was closed the water was clear. We had someone from our local pool store come out to open it on April 30th. When we did, the water was very green.
We swept all the debris to waste, and they added a

32oz bottle of algaecide
2lbs of BioGuard Maintain Burnout granular chlorine shock.


I was told to keep the pool clean and add a couple 1lb bags of shock each evening. I did that for 3 days and noticed the pool turned seafoam green and got very cloudy. The pool would get very foamy on the surface every time I shocked it.

I ordered a Taylor K-2006 test kit and did my best at testing the water. The PH seemed to be below the 7.0 minimum and the Alkalinity seemed to be between 85-90 with FC at .4 and CC at 1.8.

I figured I needed to get those numbers in line, so I added some Alkalinity increaser followed by PH increaser a couple hours later. I also noticed that my steps were quickly becoming a rusty type of color. I started reading online a little bit about why, and thought maybe it was metals. I found a bottle of Metal Free that the previous owner left, so I added it to the pool.
The next day I took a sample to the pool store and they came up with the following numbers.
Temp=72,
Saturation Index= -.1,
TDS=1000,
Total Chlorine=4.2,
Free Chlorine=3,
PH=7.4,
Alkalinity=98,
Total Hardness=316.

They told me that my pool had copper in it, and that copper and shock react and cause the water to look cloudy and green.
They had me add a

32oz bottle of staintrine,
12 lbs of Balance Pak 100.

They said to wait 3 days, then add 9lbs of burnout shock. I am scheduled to add the shock on Thursday.

Sorry for such a long post, but i just want to know if you all think this sounds like the best route to take. Thanks a ton.

[PoolDoc]

Sorry for such a long post, but i just want to know if you all think this sounds like the best route to take.

No. As we say here, you have been 'pool-stored' (sorta like punk'd, but more $$$'s) ;)



They told me that my pool had copper in it, and that copper and shock react and cause the water to look cloudy and green.

Well, that's the most ignorant pool store quote I've heard in a while . . . and we hear some doozies here! The good new is, you now know that your pool store guy is either (a) a liar or (b) almost completely ignorant about pool chemistry. Even a BioGuard trained pool store guy would know better than that! (Copper can make water blue-green, but not cloudy. Cloudy green is algae, more than 90% of the time.)

OK, since April 30 you've added:
- 1 qt of algaecide (with copper?)
- 2 lbs of Burn-out
- 6+ lbs of unspecified 'shock'
- 'some' Alkalinity Increaser (baking soda)
- bottle of Metal Free (either EDTA or citric acid, depending on how old it was)
- 1 qt Staintrine (HEDP, unknown %)
- 10 lbs of Balance Pak 100 (baking soda, again!)

And, you have 9lbs of Burn-out, unused. Is that correct? What is the EXACT ingredient listed on that "Burn Out" - BioGuard has had a bunch of different "Burn Outs"

Your pool is cloudy, greenish, and periodically foamy, with rusty orange deposits or stains on the steps. Correct?

What is your CYA level, per the K-2006?

Meanwhile, do this:

1. Do NOT take any more chemical advice, or buy any more chemicals from that store!
2. Do NOT add the Burn Out, till we've worked out what it is.
3. Go to Walmart and get 16 gallons of PLAIN 6% bleach, 4 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax and a cheap OTO/phenol red test kit. (Don't want you to use up your K2006 unnecessarily)
4. Go to Lowes, Home Depot or wherever, and get 2 gallons of muriatic acid.
5. Test your CYA and pH levels, and tell me what they are.
6. Run your pump 24/7
7. Brush your steps!
8. Add 2 gallons of bleach to the deep end of your pool each EVENING.
9. Tell me if you have access to a Sams Club. If you do, and have a chance ask them if they are carrying PoolBrand pool chemicals.
10. If your pH is above 7.2, add muriatic acid in approx 1/2 gallon doses (do not MEASURE, just use 'about' 1/2 of the bottle). Wait 4 hour and retest. Continue till pH is below 7.2, but do NOT over do it. (read the muriatic acid how to page, linked in my signature!)
11. Do not add ANY other chemicals, till you've re-posted here.
12. Check and see if there is ANYTHING besides pipe and pump, between your skimmer and your filter. (Ionizer, chlorinator, valves, gadgets, anything at all!)
13. Report everything here: pH, CYA levels; pool water appearance; step appearence; Sams access; and so on.

[HOF-City]

Thanks for the reply!!
-Yes, I have 9lbs of burnout left. The active ingredient is calcium hypochlorite-57.8%, and "other" is 42.2% not specific though.
-Pool is still cloudy "blue-green" I can see about 4'-5' deep. Not foamy anymore, but haven't shocked in 2 days
-Pump is running, will clean steps and get the products you recommend tonight.
-Nothing connected between pump and filter
-No access to Sam's Club
Also, I have a different pool store in walking distance from my house. Can I trust their testing method, or should I still pick up a OTO test kit? They use "PINPOINT" Computerized Water Analysis.
-Temp= 75
-PH= 7.0
-Alkalinity= 90
-CYA= 40
Thank you!!

Correction-my pool is 22,500 gallons not 29,000

[PoolDoc]

Unfortunately, the ONLY way we've found for you to tell if you can trust a pool store's testing is by getting a K-2006, and then seeing if they match. If they do, you can probably trust them -- but most don't. Of course, once you have a K2006, you don't NEED the pool store!

You *do* need the OTO kit, ASAP.

OK, you still need the bleach, the acid, and the borax.

If you are SURE you have nothing between the skimmer and the filter, except pipes and pump, instead of the bleach, do this:
1. Do not do this if you've just backwashed the filter.
2. Get a box of borax and a bag of shock open and ready next to the skimmer.
3. Make sure the skimmer basket is clean.
4. Add about 1/4 box of borax via the skimmer.
5. Add 1 lb of the cal hypo blend shock via the skimmer
6. Follow with another 1/4 box of borax

Do this EACH evening, but skip that days dose if the filter was backwashed that day. What you are doing is building up some calcium on the sand that will tend to 'catch' the metals in your pool water.

Test the chlorine in the AM with the OTO kit, and add 1 gallon of bleach to the pool, if the chlorine level is below 3.0

[HOF-City]

Ok. I got all the stuff you recommended last night except for the OTO kit. I will get that today. I tested with the k-2006 this morning and Chlorine was at 1. I added a gallon of bleach per your instruction, and will add Borax and hypo this evening. Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

sounds good.

[HOF-City]

I got to reading in some other threads and noticed that it's recommended to keep your pool at shock level until you can keep from losing 1ppm chlorine from evening until morning. Considering my chlorine went from 3 to 1 overnight, and now (6:15pm) its at .4, should I be doing this?

[PoolDoc]

If you dose with cal hypo, as instructed above, that will take care of it. Just make sure your chlorine doesn't get below 2.0 ppm

[HOF-City]

Added the cal hypo and borax. Waited a couple hours then tested. My FC is under 1 and CC is 3. You said to make sure Chlorine stays above 2. Should I keep adding? Pool is looking the same. Steps have remained clean thus far after scrubbing, basically just green-blue color and cloudy.

[PoolDoc]

Yeah. You probably don't want FC + CC > 10 ppm. But, until you reach that, yeah, keep adding chlorine.

[HOF-City]

So its been a few days of adding borax and chlorine through the skimmer. I also would add extra chlorine when the FC was below 2. This morning I tested, and for the first time the FC was higher than the CC. Here is what I had:
-FC=5.2
-CC=1
-PH=7.0
-Alkalinity=130
The pool is slowly becoming less cloudy, but the color seems the same. Still has a sea foam blue-green color, but I can see the entire shallow end for the first time today. I can also see deeper into the deep end, but not to the floor yet. The orange-rusty color keeps coming back on my steps. Usually after a day or 2. Should I continue with the routine I have been doing, or do you suggest anything different? Thanks for your help.

[Watermom]

Stay the course. Sounds like you're making progress. That pH is a little low. Bump it up a bit with some Borax.

[HOF-City]

This is getting frustrating. I was seeing a noticeable improvement, and could see the entire floor of the pool. One day goes by where I'm unable to return home to add bleach in the evening and it gets cloudy again. Not 100% cloudy, but worse than a few days ago. My Chlorine level really did not even drop. I have had it steady at 3 for a while now. Maybe it regressed for some other reason, but im not sure what that may be. We opened the pool on April 30th, and 20 days later it's marginally better. Any other ideas? Also, my girlfriend was trying to do me a favor when I told her I was out of bleach today, and she ended up purchasing 12 bags of "poolLife" TurboShock from a pool store for me. It is 78% Calcium Hypochlorite and 22% other. Will this be OK to use, or should I return it. Thanks.

[waterbear]

The poollife is better than the burnout you were using. It is stronger.

[PoolDoc]

Hi HOF;

Actually, the TurboShock will work well for you -if- you meet the following conditions;
(a) have DE tested your filter to make sure that *pool* DE will NOT blow through your filter. (If it does, your filter needs repair. Do NOT use brewery or other non-pool DE for this purpose!)
(b) do not have ANY chemicals of ANY sort from your skimmer to your filter. This includes chlorine feeders, mineralizers, ionizers, chlorine skimmer tabs or anything else of the sort.

Again, provided you meet the conditions, adding the TurboShock DIRECTLY to your skimmer will help clear your pool. (Adding directly to the pool will CLOUD your pool!) But, you MUST be sure that the cal hypo does NOT touch any other undissolved chemical, except borax.

Also, I may be overlooking it, but I don't see a report of your calcium level. It may, or may not, be relevant but I can't tell without the numbers. So, please check your pH, alkalinity and calcium and let's see what they are.

[HOF-City]

Thanks guys. I will test my water and post results tonight. What exactly would I need to do to run a DE test? Just add some DE through the skimmer? Also, how difficult is it for a rookie to change out the sand from my filter? I have no idea how long it's been since it was replaced. Thanks!

[aylad]

To DE test your filter, you simply put a cupful in through the skimmer, and then watch to see if it blows out the returns. If not, check to see if it raised your psi at all. Changing out the sand in a sand filter is very labor-intensive, but not at all hard....but there's no reason to do so unless you have something broken that needs fixing, or have just been through a baq conversion or used some chem that gunked up the sand. Sand never really gets too old to use. In fact, each of the other 3 mods is over 10 years with the sand in their filters, and I would be, too, if I hadn't replaced my filter a couple of years ago....

[PoolDoc]

What exactly would I need to do to run a DE test? Just add some DE through the skimmer?

Yes! What you are looking for, is whether the DE goes THROUGH the filter or is caught. If it goes through the filter, your filter needs servicing. Please note you MUST use pool DE for this purpose. Other grades of DE may be so fine they will go through a working filter.


Also, how difficult is it for a rookie to change out the sand from my filter? I have no idea how long it's been since it was replaced.

It probably doesn't need to be replaced, but if a lot of sand is missing, it probably DOES need to be supplemented.

Adding sand is not hard, once you get the filter open. Getting the filter open may be easy, or hard, depending. Take pictures -- phone pictures are OK for this -- of your filter and the surrounding pipe, send them to poolforum@gmail.com, and I'll tell you how hard or easy it will be to get inside the filter.

[HOF-City]

Cool. I will test DE through the filter tomorrow. I just got done testing my water. Here are the results.
-Alkalinity= 130
-PH= 7.2
-FC= 7.5
-CC= 1
Calcium= 400-420
CYA= 47
-I'm guessing with the Chlorine up over 7 that I should not add anything tonight? I also took out the chlorine tablets from the skimmer.
-So, pool still cloudy with a green-blue color. Noticeable stain on steps and flat portion of the shallow end floor that looks like burnt orange color.
-Thanks for all the help.

[PoolDoc]

With those numbers, adding the cal hypo through the skimmer will help with several things if the calcium dust stays on the filter. (If your filter passes the DE test, the calcium will stay). Also, with your numbers, you wouldn't want to add cal hypo to the pool: your calcium is already high.

==> Just make SURE that there are ZERO chemicals of ANY kind between the skimmer and the filter!! <==

[HOF-City]

WOW! Pools are crazy. Haha. So I

took out all chlorine tabs I had in the skimmer,
added Cal Hypo through it for a couple days and
pool got to be cloud free.

I can see the entire bottom and am super happy. The water still has a green tint to it, so I decided to put some Natural Chemistry brand "Stain Free" that was laying around in a sock to rub on my stairs. Stairs instantly became bright white!! Tried the same method on a corner of my pool liner and floor and they also cleaned up like brand new! When I look at that corner, the water appears crystal clear. So, the stained liner seems to be making my water appear green. My question is, can I use this product as recommended and follow it up with "Metal Free", or should I do something else to clean my liner? Also, the "Stain Free" that I found seems to be pretty old and I feel like I read somewhere on these boards that it is not the same as it used to be formula wise if I buy it new today. Thanks!!

[PoolDoc]

Orange stained pool surfaces can DEFINITELY make pool water look green.

But, whichever Stain Free you have -- if it's lifting the stains and putting them back into the water, that is an IDEAL situation while you using cal hypo. The calcium on the filter will tend to recollect the stains onto the calcium dust that you will then be backwashing out.

So, use it up; maintain chlorine with cal hypo, and run your filter 24/7, till you are all cleaned up . . . and then for 3 or 4 more days.

[HOF-City]

Cool. I added the Stain Free, and instantly I have a multicolored Liner. I tried to distribute it as evenly as possible, but the areas in which the stain free made it down to the floor before dissolving cleaned up right away. I'm hoping that with time the stains will begin to lift on their own and the liner will look uniform. Am I able to get in the pool while stain free is present? I'm thinking I may need to get in and do some manual cleaning somehow. Also, The directions say not to super chlorinate for 24 hours after adding to the pool. Does this mean I should avoid maintaining chlorine with cal hypo within that time. I'm just wondering because I let the FC get down to around 1 before adding stain free and I have a feeling it will be at 0 if I wait 24 hours. Thanks.
-Update- Well, That didn't take long. My FC is now showing 0. Wondering how I should raise it up without having a bad interaction with the stuff I added recently.

[PoolDoc]

I imagine you are going to see either an immediate effect, or no effect. The chemicals that have been in both the old and the new Stain Free aren't chlorine compatible. So, once it's fully dissolved, chlorine breaks it down.

So . . . if you have an adequate chlorine level, you can swim now . . . but your Stain Free is gone, or soon will be.

To LIFT the stains, without having to shut the pool down is tricky. Read this thread to get a handle on what is likely to be involved in really cleaning up your pool: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?15092

Meanwhile, if you do these things, it will tend to gradually lift the stains:

Maintain pH levels in the 7.0 - 7.4 range, ratther than higher.
Dose with an HEDP product every 2 weeks:

20% KemTek HEDP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI22/poolbooks) @ Amazon
Do NOT over clean your filter. Let it run till you see a 5 - 8 psi increase over clean pressure (or 2 - 3 psi increase, on low)
Brush regularly (2x week)
Consider using CuLator, with skimmer socks, to protect the Culator from contamination with gunk.

1 ppm Culator, direct from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003C5PNUW/poolbooks)
1.5 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004Y6RK3Q/poolbooks)
4 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007AHDMTM/poolbooks)
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004XUIRQW/poolbooks)


We *think* the Culator product works, but we're not completely sure. So skip it, if you can't risk the cost. If it does work, it's the only sure method that will 'rob' the HEDP of the metals sequested by that product and actually remove them from they pool. Filtering in the manner I told you will gradually capture the metals, but only as the HEDP breaks down and releases them.

Try that for 6 weeks. After July 4, your family will probably be less interested in swimming, and if the stains haven't lifted by then, you can go with the full treatment.

[HOF-City]

When I got home today, I noticed that my pool turned from green to blue. A bit cloudy, but blue finally. Apparently the Stain Free did it's job. There are still some stains left, but its about 90% fixed. I figure I will do another round in a few weeks, but for this weekend I need to swim! The online directions say to vacuum pool and backwash after 24 hours, then balance as needed. I just passed the 24 hour mark, and ran my numbers. They are: PH= 7.2, Alkalinity= 120, and Chlorine= 0. I now want to get everything balanced for the weekend and need to raise my chlorine. The older bottle of stain free I have says to not super chlorinate for 72 hours after treatment. The newer one says not to add chlorine or "shock" until pool has been vacuumed and backwashed after 24 hour period. Thinking I would be cautious, I just put 4 98% Trichlor pucks into my skimmer hoping it may give me a chlorine level, without going overboard. The recommended amount of tabs is 8 to achieve 1-1.5 PPM increase in a unbalanced pool. In an earlier post, PoolDoc said to not add tabs to my skimmer and just use Cal hypo through it. Should I take the tabs out and add a small amount of cal hypo, or just keep them in and monitor the situation? Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

Once the stains are lifted, your best best to REMOVE the iron, rather than to RE-STAIN the pool (because all the iron is STILL in the pool; just dissolved in the pool water) is to use cal hypo ONLY in small, increasing doses, so that you gradually raise your chlorine and pH levels

NO TABS; JUST CAL HYPO. If you put tabs ANYWHERE in the system, you MUST stop with the skimmer cal hypo!!


In an earlier post, PoolDoc said to not add tabs to my skimmer and just use Cal hypo through it. Should I take the tabs out and add a small amount of cal hypo, or just keep them in and monitor the situation?

Yep, I didn't say it just because I like the feel of of whacking away at a keyboard!

[HOF-City]

So I did one treatment of stain free with metal free, and it worked great. I then brought up, and maintained chlorine with small doses of cal hypo through the skimmer. A week later, and I notice the stain reappearing. It is not nearly as bad as before, but I notice it. I was thinking that maybe it is the result of the metal free breaking down and releasing the metals that had not been filtered out yet. I'm probably wrong though. I plan on purchasing the KemTek HEDP and 4ppm CuLator that you recommend to try. The KemTek says it "prevents" stains, while the CuLator catches metals out of the water. I'm wondering if I should first use the Stain Free to get the metal stains off my liner, and back into the water for the CuLator to catch. Or will one of those products remove the staining on my liner instantly like the stain free did? Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

The sequence is (1) get the metal off the walls and into the water (ascorbic or citric acid), (2) keep the metal in the water for awhile (HEDP), (3) get the metal our of the water (CuLator or calcium hypochlorite on the filter).

Did I link the Mountain Stone post? (Yep, it's in post #24)

[HOF-City]

Sorry, must have skipped over the link somehow. Thanks for the info. Gonna give it a shot as soon as order arrives.

[HOF-City]

Ok. Did a round of ascorbic acid and waited for stains to lift, added the KemTek HEDP that was recommended, and then added my CuLator 4ppm. So far so good. Everything looks brand new. I forgot to order the Polyquat 60 so decided to just risk it with no chlorine for a little bit. I am now on the 28th hour since introducing the ascorbic acid and about 12 hours since the dose of KemTek. Is it ok to start bringing my chlorine back up now? My pool is blue and clear and I am nervous that adding chlorine may somehow release the metals back into the pool like it did last time. Forgive me if this info is posted somewhere else. I read through a lot of other posts and just didn't see a specific amount of time to wait. Thank you.

[PoolDoc]

Yes, but add small doses -- not more than a quart of bleach at time.

Report your test results with this form: PF Pool History (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dElKUjhSX2pTdmxtYzdJZnFmRThFWmc6M A#gid=0)

You can see the results, here: PF Pool History SS (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahjo2iDF0aJgdElKUjhSX2pTdmxtYzdJZnFmRThFW mc#gid=0)

I'm not sure of some of your levels, but I'll be able to advise you, once you start using that form.

[HOF-City]

I just posted my most recent results to the "PF Pool History" linked above. However, I did not provide a thread number because I'm not sure where to find it. This is the only thread that I am a part of though. Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

It's OK -- but it's the number in the URL in your browser link.

The forms are something new -- did you find them easy to use or hard? Does it make sense to you how they can help us, and you? (I'm trying to get feedback, so I can make any corrections needed -- we think these will enable us to do a much better job.)

[HOF-City]

Yea, I like them. I'm a rookie at this pool stuff so it helps to know what specific information you guys need to know. From reading through the boards quite a bit, it seems like it takes 3-4 posts in some cases for you to collect all the necessary information. By then, a few days or more have passed and the numbers have changed or a new issue may arise. In my case, those are my numbers at the time of having pretty cloudy water. Since it was clear before, I'm assuming it has something to do with the stain removal process and I am waiting it out. However, my CH was pretty high and I'm wondering if that has something to do with cloudy water. Also, the KemTek I added says it is a metal and calcium eliminator. Will this help to lower my calcium level? Thanks.

[Watermom]

More specifically, the thread number is the number after the question mark in the URL.

[HOF-City]

Thanks! My latest results show a calcium level between 625-650. I have read that high calcium can cause cloudy water. I'm just confused as to weather or not this is my current issue, because before I went through the stain removal process the water was pretty clear and I could see the bottom of my entire pool. It became cloudy after backwashing and adding my first small dose of liquid chlorine. I am hoping that I don't need to drain any water, but if I do how much would i need to drain if my fill water has a CH of 100? Thank you.
-EDIT- Nevermind on the water refill amount. I found the Pool calculator, and apparently would need to drain 45% of my pool. That doesn't sound too fun.

[PoolDoc]

Hi HOF;

Many HEDP products, like the Kem-Tek claim to remove calcium; none actually do, if we're talking about removing it from your pool.

Test the pH, TA, and Calcium levels in your fill water. Report that in this thread, rather than on the form.
High calcium does not cause cloudiness, until you DO something, like letting your pH get high, dumping in a bunch of baking soda, or calcium hypochlorite shock, or something else of the kind.
However, if you use the calcium hypochlorite IN THE SKIMMER, as we discussed earlier, you should NOT have cloudiness, and can actually remove calcium. If you are through with removing stains, you can remove calcium by skimmer dosing with the calcium PLUS . ..
Using borax to raise your pH to near 8.0 -- use ONLY 1/4 box at a time, added slowly through the skimmer, doses separated by 2 hours or more.
Avoid cleaning your filter more often then necessary; wait for a 5 - 7 psi pressure rise.
Run your pump 24/7
Once you get to pH 8.0, stop with the borax, and start with Arm and Hammer Washing Soda, but ONLY add it when your filter is ALREADY somewhat dirty (at least a 2# increase over clean pressure!). Continue to use cal hypo to chlorinate . . . BUT in between cal hypo doses, add 2 cup doses of Washing Soda, slowly, to the skimmer. Watch your pool returns: if you see a white cloud coming from the return, stop, and try again later.
This process will ALSO tend to remove any metals in the water, so if you are going to treat for metals again, do so FIRST, but this time make SURE you have the Kem Tek HEDP in the water. Read the label carefully -- do NOT overdose with HEDP when your calcium is so high. Do not, do not, do NOT!!

What you are going to do is use the combination of slowly raised pH, then added sodium carbonate (washing soda) added UPSTREAM of the filter, to precipitate calcium carbonate ONTO the filter, where you can backwash it away. This calcium dust will tend to pick up any OTHER metals that are in the water. You MAY get some clouding, or sediment on the bottom -- that's OK: if it settles, vacuum it up; if it filters, backwash it out.

Please DO use the PF History Chart to track BOTH your test results AND your chemical additions. Let me know when you start, so I can keep an eye on it.

[HOF-City]

Sounds good. Just added Borax and recorded numbers in Pool History. Any suggestions on a website to order replacement reagents for K-2006?

[PoolDoc]

A lot of people get replacement from Amato Industries (http://www.amatoind.com/taylor-testing-reagents-c-30_35.html). Their website is rather confusing, so you need to be sure of what you want, before you start. If you just need a single item, you can order from Amazon (and you may actually be buying from Amato) but you have to pay shipping separately for each item, buying that way. My test kit info page has a link to a 1 pint bottle of R-0013 CYA reagent, one of the most commonly replaced items. You can buy any of them in large sizes, pop the tip off your dropper bottle, refill, and then pop the tip back in. Use clean hands, if you do this!

And do NOT try to get the large size of DPD powder; the Taylor DPD bottle has a desiccant coating that protects the DPD powder, but has limited life.

[HOF-City]

I ran out of Borax, and my local Wal-Mart is out as well. What other options do I have?

[PoolDoc]

If your pH is too low, you can use Arm & Hammer Washing Soda, at 1/2 the rate of borax -- but it will also increase your carbonate alkalinity.

[HOF-City]

I actually found some Borax the other day and have been using that routinely. I have been keeping tabs of every test and addition in PF Pool History. Water seems to be getting clearer at a very slow pace, which is cool with me as long as my stains don't come back. I've been dosing with Borax to raise PH, but it keeps wanting to come back down to around 7. Everything else seems to stay pretty consistent. I ordered more KemTek HEDP to do a maintenance dose every couple weeks, and keep metals sequestered. The first round of ascorbic acid treatment I did worked for about one week until the stains started to come back. I am now approaching one week since my last round and I'm getting nervous that I will come home from work to a stained pool like last time. Should I just trust the KemTek will keep metals sequestered longer than the metal free and do nothing, or would it be wise to do a very small maintenance dose when it arrives. And would dosing cloudy water make it worse? I'm trying to fix two separate issues (cloudy water, stains) at the same time, and not sure how managing one may affect the other. Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

As long as you don't overdose, but DO dose as frequently as the label states, the HEDP should hang onto the metals. Keep in mind that it does NOT remove the metals; it just keeps them in the water.

To remove them, you have to use the CuLator; OR precipitate them with alum or polyaluminum chloride, and then vacuum them out, OR use calcium + high pH + high chlorine to get them to filter out -- and then backwash them off the filter.

The HEDP is buying time, but you need time, right now.

[HOF-City]

My pool is making slow progress i guess, but I'm down to my last couple doses of Cal Hypo. I will need to buy something to keep my pool chlorinated. At this rate I'm adding some type of chlorine 3-5 times a day just to have a readable level throughout. While the cloudiness has dissipated over the past couple weeks, I can't tell if it's the Cal Hypo helping or the constant filtering, or both. I guess I just figured it would have cleared by now. I would love to go a cheaper route with the constant chlorinating, but only if you guys would. Any Thoughts?

[PoolDoc]

If you would, fill out the Pool Chart form; it will take about 30s, but make it much easier for us to help you:

Pool Chart Entry Form (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZSWc6M Q)
Pool Chart Results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahjo2iDF0aJgdHBLTzdpX19DZVlzUTRLOTU5ZFlZS Wc)

[HOF-City]

Done.

[PoolDoc]

Several questions:

1. Have you seen any evidence of new staining?

2. Why is the cal hypo expensive? How are you buying it?

3. Do have access to a Sams Club? If so, buy their 24lb pack of 1# bags of 100% dichlor shock. Each bag will add about 2.5 ppm of chlorine, and about 2 ppm of stabilizer to your pool. Otherwise, order dichlor from Amazon:

Kem-Tek Dichlor 22 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZA/poolbooks)
You need to start bringing your chlorine and stabilizer levels up. You can use the dichlor to raise both at the same time. I'd aim for 1 - 3 ppm levels. You can add the dichlor to your skimmer, but take the CuLator out before you do, and replace it after. I don't recommend buying dichlor locally, otherwise, at least until you are an EXPERT reader of chemical labels. The chlorinating pool chemicals sold at Walmart, Kmart, Costco, and most other local stores are diluted blends, sometimes with copper and other products with bad side-effects.

[HOF-City]

1. Yes, only on my stairs though. The liner seems to be clean to this point. I really hope it doesn't come back like last time. Literally stains 85% of my liner.
2. The Cal Hypo is sold at a local pool store and costs $50 for 12 bags. At this rate, I figure I'll be spending $100/month to keep chlorine in the pool.
3. No Sams club. Will most likely order Dichlor from Amazon.
For now I just have 10% liquid chlorine and was planning on using that until I get something else. Thanks.

[HOF-City]

Well, I'm convinced that I need to drain my pool and start over. The stains have come back. Not as bad as the first time, but enough to give my water a green tint again. My CuLator bag has been in for only 2 weeks and is now brown/tan in color. I'm guessing it did it's job based on the color change, but I cannot afford to drop $70 each month on a new one. I'm thinking of doing another AA treatment, then draining the thing once all the stains are sequestered. I'm just confused as to the source of the stains in the first place. I've never had to add fill water, and when we closed it last year it was clear, blue, and clean. The only thing I can think of is that there were 2 metal hook things left on each side of the pool that were used to attach a divider rope from shallow to deep end. I'm guessing the guys that closed the pool should have taken them off, but instead they were submerged from November until May. Anyway, I read somewhere that draining the entire pool is a bad idea because it could cause the liner to wrinkle. Any truth to that, or am I good to go if I decide to do it this year?

[aylad]

Draining a liner pool will almost certainly guarantee that you'll need to replace the liner. When there's no water to hold the liner down, it will float and will almost never stretch back out once it's refilled.