Another cloudy water thread...can't seem to fix it

[jeremyp]

I've got a cloudy water issue that I can't seem to solve. Here's the background info on everything. The pool was put in last July and filled with fresh water from a pool water delivery truck. The water was clear all last season until the end where we let the pool get a little green prior to closing. The pool builder did the closing for me so I'm not sure what was done to close it up last fall.

Prior to opening the pool two and a half weeks ago, I added a gallon of algecide (not sure of brand) and put the filter on recirculating mode just to get the water moving and circulate the algecide for a few days before fully opening. I kept the safety cover on during this time period. The installer did the opening for me and added a few gallons of liquid chlorine to shock the pool and very quickly the pool water went from green to gray but very cloudy. They also brushed the pool walls and floor and we ran the filter for a few days straight. After a few days, I took a sample to the local pool store (Biolab dealer) and was recommended to add alkalinity increaser, pH down and add shock. (I didn't keep the results from the test).

I have backwashed the filter several times over this period and the backwash water went from being green for the first few backwashes to a a cloudy gray for the past several backwashes. The cloudy condition hasn't improved much at all. Maybe just a bit, but not that noticeable. I started reading on this site and have since got myself a Taylor K2006C testing kit to get ACCURATE testing results. At the time of the pool store testing, I had put in a fresh new canister of chlorine tabs in my autochlorinator and cranked it up to 5 thinking that was a good thing. I just found out today that it's not so I turned it down to minimum. (My CYA had increased from 40-50 to 60 as of today). The chlorine is holding steady and there are no leaves or other gunk in the pool at all.

Here are the results from my testing this morning:
FC 16ppm
CC 1ppm
TC 17ppm
pH 7.4ppm
TA 140-150ppm
CYA 60ppm
CH 130-140

Any ideas on what to do from here? This has been going on for almost 3 wees now and I would have thought it would've cleared up at this point. Any help is very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[aylad]

Hi Jeremy,

Cloudy water can be caused by lots of things...dead algae, calcium too high, "mystery chems" put in the pool during opening, etc etc etc. My first suggestion would be to measure your chlorine tonight after the sun is off the pool, then again in the morning before the sun hits it. If you've lost more than 1 ppm of chlorine in that time, then you're still fighting something in the water and need to get the chlorine back up to shock level, which for a CYA of 60 means chlorine of 20 ppm. (Make sure your pump is off during this time period so that your chlorinator isn't feeding chlorine into the pool and giving you a false reading.) Once you get back up to shock level, you need to test as many times a day as you can, and add more chlorine to maintain that 20 ppm until you're not losing more than the 1 ppm overnight. At that point you can let your chlorine drift back down to the normal range (5-10 ppm).

If you haven't lost more than 1 ppm overnight, then we need to look at your filter. Do you see sand blowing back into the pool? Do you see your filter pressure changing after a backwash? Are you putting the filter through a "rinse" cycle after backwashing before going back to filter mode? Is your pressure rising as the filter runs? If your pressure is rising, then your filter is catching some of the stuff and may just need some time, although I agree that 3 weeks is a little long. The other suggestion I have is to try the DE trick that the other 3 mods use--put a cupful of DE (the media that you use in a DE filter) into the skimmer with the pump running, then watch the returns. If the DE blows out, then you have a filter issue that needs to be addressed. If it doesn't, then the DE will stay in your filter and help the sand catch smaller particles than it would alone. The DE will backwash out with the dirt during the next backwashing, so will need to be replaced after backwashing if you like the result.

[jeremyp]

Aylad, thanks for the reply. I measured 15ppm free chlorine last night at about 9pm and I just checked it again this morning at 7:30am and got 14ppm free chlorine. I don't see sand blowing back into the pool, I do see that pressure drops after I backwash, I do run the filter through a rinse cycle after backwashing until the sight glass is clear and my filter pressure does rise. It rose pretty quickly at first, but now it's rising more slowly. I purchased some EcoKlean cellulose based DE substitute so is that OK in place of the DE? Is it possible that my 1.5 HP pump is pushing too much water through the filter? (just one of my thoughts).

By the way, I'm in NH and the water is still pretty darn cold, if that makes any difference.

Thanks,
JP

[aylad]

It sounds like your filter is working like it's supposed to--maybe the DE trick will help it get the finer stuff. I would hold off on the EcoKlean substitute until Ben or one of the equipment guys says it's okay--some of that stuff gunks up the sand to the point where you'll actually have to replace it, and I'm not sure about that one.

I guess it's possible that the pump is pushing too much water through the filter--I have the same filter you do with a 1 HP pump on it--but again, I'm not an equipment pro, so Ben, Mark, or one of the others will have to take a stab at that one. I would think that if that were the problem, it would also be pushing sand and other debris back into the pool. IN the meantime, just keep the filter running and backwash it as you need to. Remember that a dirty filter works better than a clean one, so I wouldn't backwash it until the pressure is at least 8 psi over "clean".

How does your water look? I know it's cloudy, but is it blue? Green?

[jeremyp]

Thanks. I'll wait to hear the equipment experts...
The water looks great other than being cloudy. It's blue in color but with poor visibility through the water.

[jeremyp]

Here are a couple pics of the pool...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gdSKZ51YO5U/T6gcRiHenyI/AAAAAAAACwc/EfmNzPLIvfI/s400/cloudy%2520watera.jpg https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ATR74eATUoc/T6gcRaG3aNI/AAAAAAAACwU/bF6B1dSIsHk/s400/cloudy%2520water1a.jpg

[aylad]

That's a pretty pool--LOVE that blue water!!

I asked Ben about the cellulose substitute, so hopefully one of us will hear definitively from him soon...

[BigDave]

JP,
I noticed that yesterday you had 1ppm CC and you didn't report it today. Do you have any? You may still be fighting something in your water and 14ppm FC is well below your shock value of 20ppm FC for 60 CYA. If this were my pool, I'd add 3 gallons of bleach to get the FC over 20 and keep it there 'til the CC is gone and the FC drops less than 1 ppm overnight. And keep the filter running.

[jeremyp]

Thanks Janet. I agree...I love the color of the water. I just want it CLEAR! LOL

Dave, thanks for replying. I just dumped in 1.5 ga of 12.5% liquid chlorine on your recommendation and will test again in a few hours. I didn't test for CC this morning. Only FC to see if it had dropped by more than 1ppm from the night before. I'll post back once I do my tests.

Thanks,
JP

[jeremyp]

Dave,
Here is the current FC - 23ppm and CC - 0.5ppm. I'll recheck again late tonight and then again first thing tomorrow morning to see if the FC drops <1ppm and hopefully the CC goes to 0.

[jeremyp]

I just tested again and the FC is at 22ppm and the CC is at 0.5ppm. I'm not losing >1ppm FC, but my CC isn't 0 either. I brushed the sides and floor again for good measure. I'm assuming I should keep the current course of action...keep FC > 20ppm until CC - 0? Keep brushing sides and floor? What about adding DE to the sand filter...would that help at all?

[BigDave]

Sounds like you're there, 0.5 ppm is within the error of the 10ml sample test. Sounds like adding DE is the next logical step; be sure to check if it's blowing out the returns when you add it. BTW I haven't used the cellulose product you mentioned but I did try another last year and found that it didn't help and when I opened the filter I found it in large gray clumps on the sand.

[jeremyp]

Update:
I added some DE to the sand filter last night. (About 4 or 5 solo cups)
I back washed a few times prior so I had to add some fresh water. FC is now 16ppm, CC is now ZERO and pH is 7.4. The filter pressure climbed 11 psi and flow was pretty slow so I back washed again this afternoon. Results are still the same. This cloudy water isn't getting any better at all. It still looks exactly the same. How long should it take to see results from adding DE? Did I add enough DE, too much? This is starting to get a little frustrating to say the least.

[TheGoose]

Just for comparison sake, do you know how much sand your filter holds? Mine is rated for 325# and my starting pressure is ~20 psi.

You're only supposed to add enough DE for a ~1 psi pressure increase. I overshot mine also, but I found that if you shut the pump down for a few minutes and re-start the pressure somehow will come down. Mine went up to 26 on roughly one solo-size cup, but after I let it set for ~5 minutes it was back down to ~21 psi.

[jeremyp]

My Hayward sand filter holds 300 lbs +/- and clean filter pressure is 18-19 psi. After putting in the DE the pressure did rise 1-2 psi but after a half hour or so it had climbed another 5 psi or so.

[Watermom]

Too much DE. As you found out, it does take a little time before you see the total rise -- often as much as 20 or 30 minutes. So, cut way back next time.

[TheGoose]

Shut the pump down for ~5 minutes and see if it drops after you start it up. I think the loss of flow lets the DE get more evenly distributed over the top of the sand bed.

[jeremyp]

TheGoose - I noticed that...I had shut it off for a few minutes and when I turned it back on the pressure went down but after 15 minutes or so it was back up again. I've since backwashed and this time only added 2-3 cups of DE. Next time I'll add slowly and wait until pressure stabilizes before adding more to get the right amount (thanks Watermom).

I read another ongoing thread in this forum and I feel like I'm suffering from the same issues as others this season due to, what I think may be, an oversized pump. I'm running a 1.5 HP Hayward Superpump through a Hayward S244S sand filter and, after checking with my pool installer, found out that my pump is at the upper limits of the filter specs. Last year the water was crystal clear all season long. Now that I had a seriously green pool to start and really need to filter the dead bacteria out of the water it may be pushing too hard to filter as effectively as I need it to. Although, the DE project seems to have helped some. I can now see the bottom of my shallow end...We're at least seeing some progress. I'll keep at the DE 'thing' until it clears up. I'll probably be due for another backwash by the end of the day as the pressure continues to rise (obviously a good sign!).

Thanks,
JP

[TheGoose]

My old pump was a 1.5 HP with an old Sta-Rite Swimquip DE Filter. When I switched I decided to go back with a 1-HP and a sand filter. I figured that since the filter was rated for ~60 gpm I was in good shape but now I'm finding out that I'm really at the upper level of flow for that filter and I have never really had consistent results. I'm strongly considering either going back to DE or up one size on my sand filter.

[PoolDoc]

Hi Jeremy;

+ Do NOT use celluose; it will gum your filter up something awful.
+ For good filtration of fine particles, you need to slow flow down to 45 GPM or less. With an 19 psi filter pressure, you're probably running closer to 65 GPM.
+ Short term solutions: put a valve in between the pump and filter, and throttle the flow till CLEAN filter pressure drops to about 10 psi.
+ Long term, more energy efficient solution: replace the impeller on your pump, with the impeller for an SP2607x10.
+ Long term, MOST energy efficient solution: replace the impeller AND replace the motor with an energy efficient 2-speed model -- and run on low speed except when vacuuming or backwashing.

Sand filters are never the best at small algae particles, but over-driven sand filters are the worst.

Possible quicker cleaner-upper:
1. Make sure your algae is dead (brush the whole pool) and that your FC is > 10 ppm.
2. Turn your pump off overnight. If the algae is settling, add bleach to maintain chlorine, and let it continue settling.
3. If it does not settle, return to filtering.
4. If it does settle, you can vacuum to waste.

[jeremyp]

Ben, thanks for the info...I started to think that's the way I was needing to go. I'm leaning towards just spending the money to get a two speed motor. What motor and impeller do you recommend?
I jumped the gun on the use of the EcoKlean cellulose based product...How do I check to see if it gummed up my filter?

[aylad]

I jumped the gun on the use of the EcoKlean cellulose based product...How do I check to see if it gummed up my filter?

Open it up and see what it looks like....

[PoolDoc]

What motor and impeller do you recommend?

The safest choice would simply to be to simple replace your existing motor with a new 2 speed of the size, and add a timer.
B977 motor on this page at A1PoolParts (http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-Motors--dsh--Replacement-cln-Multi-dsh-Speed/Categories.bok). I think they have free shipping on energy efficient motors till June sometime. And, you need the "Go-Kit (http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-1250/Hayward-Super-Pump-Go-dsh-Kit/Detail.bok)"

This timer is what you need (or you can use the manual switch):

Intermatic T10604R Pool/Spa Control Center T106M and T104M (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0039Q7NYI/poolbooks)
Southwire 55189301 3/4-Inch 6-Feet ULTRA Whip-Pre-Assembled with Wires and Connectors (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQSGEU/?tag=poolbooks)
Leviton 1282 15 Amp, 120/277 Volt, Toggle Double Throw @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0033PSG5A/poolbooks)

[jeremyp]

Ben, thanks for the recommendations. After working with my installer I've decided to do the following:
Change out the 1.5 HP motor for a 1 HP 2 speed motor with the proper impeller.
Change out the existing T104 timer control for an Intermatic P1353ME electronic control to handle the on/off as well as the timer duties. It fits in the existing Intermatic enclosure box so that simplifies things a bit.

In the meantime, my water has been getting clearer. I'm keeping the FC >10 as you mentioned. There has been a little bit of settling by leaving the pump off overnight, but not a lot.
I've been adding half a solo cup of DE after backwashing and it settles around 1-2 psi increase after about 20-30 minutes. After just a couple hours it increases to 5psi and it's ready to be backwashed again within approximately 6 hrs when the pressure has increased approximately 10 psi. The DE trick does work, but its' a slow process. I'll get there.

I really appreciate the help on this topic and will keep updating as things continue to clean up. Hopefully things won't get worse. I'll also post back after I get the pump and controller installed.

JP