Refilling with well water (iron stains)

[blepore]

Accidently drained my pool this year. Now looking at refililng 35K gallon gunite pool with well water. Water runs through softener but, still allows some iron to bleed through.

I have some old iron stains on the sides and floor that i want to get rid of. Should I hold off on refilling and attack them while it's empty? Is that easier?

Also, what do i do to ensure that the stains don't come back with the new well water I'm adding?

I have algicide, 5lbs of vitamin C, plus 4 quarts of mineral magnet that i saved from last year when i was going to try and remove the stains.

Thanks for the guidance

[aylad]

Hi blepore, and welcome!!

I'm not a stain expert by any means, so I'll let Pooldoc or one of the others with stain experience answer your stain questions. If you can remove most, if not all of the iron before filling your pool, that's obviously the best answer. You might want to use the Google search feature in my sig to look for metal filtering--we've had other folks in the past who have handmade filters to run the water past a high chlorine source and into cotton batting, cheesecloth, or other material, before allowing the water in the pool, creating a situation where the metal drops out on to the filter material and never makes it to the pool. That obviously would make things much easier for you in the long run, if it's feasible for you to do. If you have no other choice than to use the water with iron in it, then you'll minimize your staining by keeping your chlorine and pH levels low.

What type of algaecide do you have? If it's not Polyquat, I wouldn't use it at all....

[blepore]

i have something called Blue Shield Mustard Algae Eliminator which is 60% Poly.... Ethylene Dichloride. is this the same as PolyQuat? Have BlueSheild Mineral Magnet for the sequestering agent.

What shoudl i use to clean the bare walls? Muric Acid? Diluted? Scrub brush? how long do i let it sit on the walls? Do i need to pump out the remaining water once it's got all that acid in it?

Also, wanted to mention my filter is a StaRite cartridge type witn one brand new set and one old set of filters. I was going too start with the old set and after the initial filtering, move to the newer set.

Also, that "metal filtering" sounds interesting. I tried your search suggestion but, it came up with too many non-related topics when i typed metal filtering (got everything with filter and/or metal in it). i tried "metal filtering" and nothing came up. What is the proper search strings to use? It seems Google's normal search pattern doesn't seem to work here?

[aylad]

Here's a couple of them....I'll see if I can find the others..pay attention to any of the posts by mbar--she's got more stain experience than anybody on the forum except for Pooldoc.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?9706-New-Pool-Owner-With-High-Iron-Manually-Removing-Iron

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?9614-New-Pool-Owner-With-High-Iron/page2

[PoolDoc]

Hi Blepore;

You don't want to acid wash a pool yourself. It's to be avoided anyhow, since it works by ripping off the top layer of your pool's finish, leaving it nice and white, but also rough, porous, and more easily stained.

Go to Walmart or where ever and get a small container of Iron Out (detergent / stain section). Make a slurry of it, wet a stained area of your pool (no standing water) brush or sponge the slurry over as much of the stain as you can, and see if it lifts it. If it does, see how much area you can cover, and then estimate how many times that area you need to clean.

You can get a larger quantity (65 oz) from Amazon:

Super Iron Out IO65N Rust Stain Remover (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00103XAQC/poolbooks)
but if you are going to need a LOT, call Summit Brands (http://www.summitbrands.com/summit/contact/) and ask them for a delivered price on a 50lb container. They will sell direct.

One caution: if you have asthma, do NOT do this. Iron Out contains sodium hydrosulfite which can trigger severe acute attacks in asthmatics.

But, using Iron Out will NOT damage your pool, and will not leave you with 1,000's of gallons of acid and water to dispose of. It's not damaging to small pumps, so you can hook up a little sump in the pool, with a long hose, and run the water into the nearest toilet and the sewer. (It won't hurt sewers, but it's not good for grass!)

[blepore]

Thanks Pool Doc. Interesting you recomend NOT using acid wash. Good news is I use Iron out in my well softener brine tank and love it's results. So if i understnad you correnctly, i shoudl still pump out all reamaining water once i'm finished and fill from scratch? No way to save it?

Most importantly, when i'm refilling from my well, iron will leach through again. How do i avoid restaining all over again?!?!?

Should i try a make shift iron removal system as i'm filling?

I've also read about Culator and found that to be an interesting solution. Maybe i just direct add those to the auto fill or put a hose directly on a bag as i'm filling?

Still have teh AA and sequestering agents ready to go if that makes sense.

Thanks again. Hope to have a white pool again finally!

[blepore]

i shoudl still pump out all reamaining iron outwater once i'm finished and fill from scratch? No way to save it if it's only a small amount vs the 35K fill?

Has anyone determined how to use CuLator when filing a pool for first time? Do i put in sequestering agent to keep new iron away from freshly cleaned walls and add CuLator to autofill/hose area to absorb what comes out of the well then move to skimmer?

Looks like i may have some copper stains also. What is best for removing those?

Thanks agian

[PoolDoc]

The process you'd want to follow is something like this:

1. Remove the stains with Iron Out; pump out the rinse water from this process.
2. Begin filling but do NOT allow the fill water to directly touch the pool walls. For example, put the hose inside a bucket, and put the bucket in the pool.
3. Begin adding the Mineral Magnet but only if the image below is the product you have
http://www.namcopool.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/104x250/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/8/88994_mineralmagnet_qt.jpg
Add 1 cup to the bucket BEFORE you begin filling, and then add another cup every 4 inches of water, till you've added a quart.
4. Begin operating your pump and filter as soon as you can, but do NOT let the water from one of the returns splash directly onto a pool surface.
5. Keep the pH low; if it starts to get above 7.4, add acid. If the pH is TOO low (below your test kit color) add borax, 1/4 box at at time, to your fill bucket. Do NOT dump it directly on the pool surface.

Before I can tell you more, you need to put COMPLETE pool info -- pump & filter make, model, & size; pool equipment if any, gallons, etc -- into your PoolForum signature

One more thing: if you *really* want to avoid staining, pre-filtering the water will help. I checked on Amazon, and it's possible to put together a pretty substantial pre-filter system for around $100 using a couple of Culligan pipe line filters + some trichlor tabs. If you're interested, I'll list out all the parts for you. You'd have to assemble it yourself, and pick up some 3/4" PVC and 1" PVC adapters locally. You'd need to be able to use Teflon tape or Teflon pipe dope, plus Channellock pliers. It would be resusable -- and in fact, if you make it, you should use it each time you add water to the pool.

[blepore]

Thanks Ben. That brings the whole thing into focus. Basically, keep water from aerating (especially on walls) that will precipitate out the iron and sequester what does enter water with Mineral Magnet. Only concern i have is that its still in the water.

Remaining questions:

- Going to try CuLator 4PPM to remove this stuff compeletely. How does this factor into your step by step?
- How do i remove stains that may be COPPER (blue-green)? Probably from my formerly used Copper Ion/Ozone santizing system... NOW ON BBB for years!
- What shoudl my Calcium Hardness levels be for this? I've read here that high levels help with containing iron precipitation. Mines been about 200-250
- Will you share the design of your "pre-filter" for use in filling pool (and maybe as a pre-filter to my house softener if possible)?

A little more info to help with your understaning of my situation:

- I have a water softener that raises the PH to about 7.2 and removes most iron/manganese but, often is overloaded when filling pool so some iron bleeds through
- Raw water is aboutg 6PPM iron with some managnese and 6.7 PH. Water never gets really brown but, it may stain walls. I'd guess it woudl get up to 2-3PPM
- Fairly handy with plumbing/hardware but need to have the chemistry explained to grasp the total picture
- Signature info below shows more details

[PoolDoc]

Ok.

1. I wouldn't recommend using the CuLator till you have the pool up and running. What evidence we have suggests that it works VERY slowly -- possibly for the purely physical reason that it takes a LONG time to pass most of the pool water over a small 'tea-bag' of minerals sitting in the skimmer. Most of the water going through the skimmer never touches the 'tea-bag'. SO, you have to be managing the iron successfully the entire time the CuLator sits there.

2. I think Iron Out will do so. Get a small bottle from Walmart, and try on both kinds of stains. Estimate how much you need based on the results (maybe none, if it doesn't work well) Then buy the quantity you need either from Amazon, or directly from Summit Brands.

3. Don't worry about calcium yet. Besides, I doubt that there is significant calcium in your fill water; usually metal contaminated water is acidic and low in calcium. Use your K2006, and test raw well water for pH, total alkalinity, and calcium. Repeat the test AGAIN with water downstream of your softener.

4. I'll do the filter, but not tonight. Gonna go watch "Horatio Hornblower" with my family! Besides, the design couldn't be used upstream of your softener -- getting precipitated iron into a softener is a MESS. (Have you been told about using sodium hydrosulfite to maintain the zeolite in your softener? If not, you need to learn about it. Iron Out is a mixture of sodium hydro and sodium sulfite. Hydro is a bit hard to handle, and harder to get, now.)

5. If you've got manganese, I need to modify the filter design some, and you absolutely need to make sure that there is NO bleed through. Plan to regenerate as often as need (or even more often) to prevent that. You do NOT want manganese in your pool!

I'll post more links and stuff, hopefully tomorrow. Meanwhile, you need to test the Iron Out, and also make sure you're ready to regenerate. You do NOT want water with 2 - 3 ppm Fe hitting the plaster during clean up, so you'll need to re-gen just prior to starting the clean up with Iron Out. If you've never clean your zeolite, ask your softener people about that. (If you DIY the softener system, call the mfg of the zeolite used, and ask them. You may be able to use Iron Out for that purpose, in which case getting a 50# bucket direct from Summit might be a very good idea.)