Test Results - Please Review

[Jacob99]

I got some more liquid chlorine (12.5) into my pool today after the sun went down. I just ran some tests and here are my numbers. Pool was just filled yesterday morning so this is my first set of numbers. Please let me know if they sound correct or what corrective action I should take:

FC: 3.4ppm
CC: 0.4ppm
pH: Somewhere between 7.0 - 7.2 so I'll go with 7.1.
TA: 50ppm
CH: 20ppm
CYA: I'm going to go with non-existent because the mixture didn't even turn cloudy

[TheGoose]

I would believe your CYA numbers since you haven't added any. If you have added it is my understanding that it takes awhile for the CYA to dissolve and get mixed well.

I would say to keep ahead of the curve and keep the FC up until you get some CYA. The sun will burn through your chlorine super fast without CYA so you might add it several times a day.

Post some pictures, I would like to see your set-up. Sounds like a great pool.

[Jacob99]

I would believe your CYA numbers since you haven't added any. If you have added it is my understanding that it takes awhile for the CYA to dissolve and get mixed well.

I would say to keep ahead of the curve and keep the FC up until you get some CYA. The sun will burn through your chlorine super fast without CYA so you might add it several times a day.

Post some pictures, I would like to see your set-up. Sounds like a great pool.

I'll post some pics as soon as I get the landscape around it finished up. I hate seeing my yard messy...lol.

Are the other levels okay? ph, CH, TA, etc....

[TheGoose]

I'm not really an expert, but to this amateur they look OK. I'm sure Pooldoc will chime in.

They like the TA to be a little higher so you might look at that. You said you've got an above ground so I assume it's a vinyl liner and I don't think CH is too important with a vinyl liner.

If it were me I would get the chlorine up, it's easier to stop an algae outbreak than it is to fix the aftermath. Just be careful on how you apply the chlorine, you don't want to bleach your liner out.

I would listen to Pooldoc or one of the other experts, I'm still at "dangerous bystander" phase LOL.

Good luck.

[aylad]

Your numbers actually don't look bad. Make sure the chlorine level stays at 3 ppm or above until you get some stabilizer in the water, which may require that you add chlorine more than once per day. I would go ahead and start adding your CYA--either in an old sock hanging in front of your return, or you can add it slowly through the skimmer where it will go to your filter and sit until it dissolves. If you choose to put it through the skimmer, don't backwash for at least 5-6 days, because you'll just wash it all out and have to start over again. Follow label directions and target about a 40 ppm level, for starters. You can always tweak it later.

I would bump that pH up just a tad--anywhere between 7.0 and 8.0 is generally okay, but you don't have much leeway with 7.1. Maybe target around 7.4?

I don't know what chlorination method you're planning to use for the season, but unless you're going to be using stabilized chlorine (trichlor tabs, dichlor powder), then I would leave the TA alone for now. Having it on the low end will help stabilize your pH. If you're going to be using stabilized chlorine, you might want to bump it up to the 100 range (you can use baking soda for this).

[Jacob99]

I plan to go BBB once my levels are good.

So, I need to raise my CYA. I think I'm going to use dichlor which I plan to buy on my way home today. According to the pool calculator, I need 128oz to get it to 40. So, I would put 2 lbs per day right? After 4 days, I'll have my 128oz then I'll stop using dichlor all together and switch back to liquid chlorine.

Sound ok?

Should I be adding some Borax at some point since the dichlor will lower my pH?

[BigDave]

You'll definitely need Borax - your pH is alreday low

[Jacob99]

Went to Namco, Home Depot, and Walmart - no one has dichlor. They all have cal-hypo.

How about stabilizer/conditioner? That's straight CYA correct?
Will that lower you pH as well?
Is this where you hang it in an old sock in front of the return vs. dissolving in a bucket with the dichlor?
Is stabilizer/conditioner a better way to go than the dichlor?
I would continue to dose with liquid chlorine in addition to the stabilizer correct?

They have a stabilizer/conditioner at Namco but it doesn't list ingredients which scares me a little....

[aylad]

The stabilizer/conditioner is usually straight CYA. If you look at the ingredient label, it should say cyanuric or isocyanuric acid. If so, that's the stuff. You can either hang it in a sock in front of a return, or put it into the skimmer slowly, and let it dissolve on your filter (if you go that route, you can't backwash for 4 or 5 days because you'll backwash it out undissolved and have to start over). It dissolves very very slowly, so you won't be able to dissolve it enough in a bucket of water to broadcast it--although dissolving it in water as much as you can before putting it in the skimmer might speed up the process and will reduce the chance of it clogging your pipes. If you put it through the skimmer, don't bother to retest for it for at least 4-5 days--you'll just be wasting the reagent. You do need to dose with chlorine of some sort in addition to the stabilizer. All the stabilizer does is help protect the chlorine you put into the pool from being consumed by the sun. It will not significantly lower your pH. It is a weak acid. If you're happy with the liquid chlorine, then I'd just go with straight CYA and skip the dichlor. Dichlor will drive your pH down significantly, and the CYA won't.

[Jacob99]

How much should I put in at a time? Since my current level is 0, I would need 112oz which is 7lbs. 7bs sounds like too much weight for 1 sock. My current thought is to do 1 gallon of liquid stabilizer for that instant gratification, then I would only need about 4 lbs of the dry dissolving stuff. This should bring my CYA somewhere in the 35-40 range....

[aylad]

I would only put in enough to get to 1/2 of your target number. If you want to get to 40, then put in a dose to target 20. Let it dissolve, test for it (after a few days) and then add more. CYA is one of those situations where it's much better to creep up on your target number than to put it in all at once and overshoot it, since draining water is the only real solution to lowering it.

[Jacob99]

Okay, so I put in 1 gallon of liquid stabilizer just to get some in there in a hurry since my chlorine is getting eaten up so quickly. I took a bottle of water sampling prior to putting in the stabilizer. Looks like I have zero chlorine AGAIN! Hopefully the stabilizer I just put in will help.

My question, is it safe to put liquid chlorine into the pool after I just put in a gallon of stabilizer? Just don't want to create any dangerous gasses or anything.

Also, I need some Borax since my pH is only at about 7, according to pool calculator I should put in 169oz of Borax to get my pH to 7.5 but I only have a 76oz box, so I guess I should keep more of this stuff on hand. I think that'll only get me to around 7.2? For putting Borax in, do I mix it into a 5 gallon bucket and dump into the pool? How much of it can I dissolve at a time without it settling to the bottom?

Sorry for all the questions, still learning - but getting more and more knowledgeable by the day...lol.

[Watermom]

It is fine to add chlorine after stabilizer has been added. Borax can be poured slowly into the skimmer while the pump is running, breaking up any clumps.

[Jacob99]

It is fine to add chlorine after stabilizer has been added. Borax can be poured slowly into the skimmer while the pump is running, breaking up any clumps.

Thanks. In regards to the Borax, poured in powdered form, or should I dissolve in a bucket first?

[PoolDoc]

powder . . . added slowly.

[Jacob99]

powder . . . added slowly.

Slowly as in over a 10 minute span or a 24 hour span? Should I use the entire 76oz box?

[Watermom]

Slowly as in a minute or two. As soon as you see the skimmer basket clear, pour some more. Go ahead and use the whole box.

[Jacob99]

Slowly as in a minute or two. As soon as you see the skimmer basket clear, pour some more. Go ahead and use the whole box.

Sweet. Thanks. Got the stabilizer in, got the liquid chlorine in, and I'm heading out now to put the Borax in. Should I let my pump run on full speed overnight? I still haven't quite figured out when to use the low speed vs. the high speed.

[PoolDoc]

If you're pool is cloudy, you'll get better filtration with a cartridge or sand filter on low, than on high.

[Jacob99]

It's looked clear, but right now it's looking a little cloudy since adding the liquid stabilizer. I'm hoping it'll clear up by morning. Should I run it on low overnight?

[Watermom]

Sorry for the late reply, but the answer was "yes." Any time you are trying to clear a pool, you should always run the pump 24/7.

[Jacob99]

No worries...i did lower it and pump has been running. Gonna go test again in a little bit. I have to say I'm kind of enjoying it so far considering I haven't used the pool yet. Will I get over it? LoL

[Jacob99]

Got my new readings...chlorine low again...damn my lack of stabilizer!

FC: 1.8
CC: 0.2

pH: 8.0 (I really don't understand how this is possible. I was at 7.0 yesterday. I added 1 gallon of liquid stabilizer, 1 gallon of liquid chlorine, and one 76oz box of Borax. According to the pool calculators, I needed 169oz of Borax to raise my level to 7.4. I used less than half of that because that's all I had on hand, and it raised it to 8.0. Very strange. So one drop of the R005 turned it to the desired color of pH, so I will need 22oz of Muriatic acid to get back down to a 7.5 pH reading. (I think)

TA: 50 (the Taylor kit says it'll turn from green to red, but it's more of a pink, right?)

CYA: I didn't even notice that the lowest level on the tube is 30, and I already knew I would only have around 15 so I guess I just wasted my drops. Oh well, won't be doing that again. I have some HTH stabilizer that I'll be putting in over the next couple of days to raise up my CYA.

I guess I'm just concerned with the pH. Did I do something wrong?

Edit: I just checked and I have no idea where I got 169oz from? I guess I should double check my numbers before adding chemicals. Regardless, to get from 7.0 to 7.5 it says I needed 95oz of Borax and I only put 76oz, so I still don't understand how I got from 7.0 to 8.0.

[PoolDoc]

I'm about at the point of encouraging people to ignore the "add this much, to get X change in pH" part of the PoolCalcultor. In my opinion, it causes more trouble than it's worth. It's much better simply to add a basic dose, wait, and the recheck the pH.

Or, if you REALLY just have to single-shot the pH adjustment, you can use the acid or base demand tables in the K2006. I guess, if there's enough demand, we could cobble together a basic borax addition table for that test.

Here's general rule: simple calculated doses to change pH by 0.X pH units are NOT reliable. Just use a basic dose (1/2 box borax; 1/4 gallon of muriatic) on your pool, when you need to make a change. Add, wait, retest -- and repeat if needed!

But, in this case, adding too much borax is not bad. Having a 50+ ppm borates residual will make your pool somewhat more resistant to algae, and your water a bit more 'sparkle-y'. A LOT of people do this deliberately.

Do you have a Sams Club in your area? If you do, you might want to make a run, and pick up 50# of "PoolBrand Chlorinating Granules" for $105. (That's what it costs, in Chattanooga, anyhow.) Using it will
1. raise your chlorine
2. raise your stabilizer
3. lower your pH.

You probably won't be want to use it exclusively -- if you do, and use it all up this season, you'll end up with a CYA level near 130 ppm. You can do that, but you have to make some modifications. But, it would get you into range very quickly right now, and make the next month, very easy. After that, you'll have to switch to using bleach or cal hypo some of the time, instead of just dichlor.

Do NOT buy dichlor from Walmart or Costco -- they've 'gone over to the dark side' and are selling hodge-podge dichlor + mystery goo blends. Locations like Lowes, Home Depot or Ace Hardware may have the plain dichlor OR they may have the pool version of chemical hobo soup. If you try to buy there, may sure you can read the chemical labels correctly. Otherwise, if you want a smaller quantity, you can get it from Amazon:

Kem-Tek Dichlor 12lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZ0/poolbooks)
Kem-Tek Dichlor 22.5lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHZA/poolbooks)

If you buy the 12lb size, you'll have 36 ppm stabilizer in your pool when it's gone. With the 22lb size, you'll have about 66 ppm.

[Jacob99]

I already added about 2 lbs of stabilizer today (dissolved pretty quickly in front of my return - about 1 hour per pound). That being said, after this I think my CYA level will be around 25 or so by tomorrow.

Won't stabilizer lower my pH a little? I plan on testing tomorrow then putting in another 2 lbs of stabilizer which should bring my CYA up to 35 or so which was my target. If my pH comes down to say 7.8 or so with the stabilizer then I should be good right? I would rather not buy the dichlor if I don't have to. I've spent enough money this week...lol.

[PoolDoc]

Won't stabilizer lower my pH a little?

Not much.

If you've already got stabilizer to add, and want to continue add bleach in the evenings, that will work OK, too.

[Jacob99]

Thanks. I have been adding only in the evenings. Do you think I should add a few ounces of Muriatic Acid, or just wait it out to see where it's at after I get the CYA to my target level. Also, do you think 35 is a good target (for CYA), or should it be a little higher?

[PoolDoc]

I'd rather you get 2 consecutive days of chlorine AND pH results, and let me see what they are, before you start pouring in acid. Low pH can damage pool liners. High pH is not good, either, but the effects are much slower.

[Jacob99]

I'd rather you get 2 consecutive days of chlorine AND pH results, and let me see what they are, before you start pouring in acid. Low pH can damage pool liners. High pH is not good, either, but the effects are much slower.

Great. Thank you. I'll report back later on.

[Jacob99]

Unfortunately I didn't get to test yesterday. I was way too busy. I did add another pound of stabilizer yesterday though. I tested first thing this morning, and these are the results:

FC: 2.4
CC: 0.4
pH: 7.3 (didn't put any acid it - not sure why pH has been so jumpy)
TA: 60
CYA: 55!!

How the heck did my CYA get up to 55? The only thing I've put in is liquid chlorine, stabilizer, and a box of Borax (the one from 2 days ago). I put in a gallon of liquid stabilizer which was suppose to raise 30ppm for 10,000 gallons, I have almost 24,000 gallons so we'll call that less than 15ppm that I should've gained. Then I only added 3 of the 4 lbs of HTH powdered stabilizer. According to the label of the HTH stabilizer for a 20ppm increase in 20,000 gallons I should use 4lbs and I only used 3 of the 4 like I said. So, 20ppm plus the 15ppm of the liquid stabilizer = 35ppm which are the same numbers I got using the pool calculator, and since I only used 3 of the 4 lbs I should be under 35ppm. I'm confused where this extra 20+ppm came from. Is it possible that the water I had trucked in had some CYA in it already? I wish I had tested yesterday before adding that 3rd pound!

Another thing, I've been running my pump 24x7 the last 3-4 days since I've been putting in stabilizer, Borax, etc. It's been running on low, and I've noticed a decrease in pump pressure. On low, it was previously just under 10psi, but now it's under 5psi. What would cause that?

[PoolDoc]

Trucked in water didn't have CYA in it -- it's NEVER used in potable water treatment.

Stabilizer dissolves slowly, so what you added 4 days ago is only now fully dissolving. If you added granular stabilizer yesterday, you'll probably continue to see a rise in CYA levels over the next few days.

As a rule, a drop in filter pressure means a drop in flow, often because of a dirty strainer basket, or a clogged impeller. Is that a possibility on your pool?

[Jacob99]

How would it have climbed this high in the first place though? I definitely did not use enough stabilizer to get levels that high. I used 1 gallon of this:

http://www.intheswim.com/Pool-Chemicals/Chlorine-Bromine/Liquid-Stabilizer-Pool-Water-Conditioner/

And 3 lbs of this:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-Stabilizer-and-Conditioner/17043638#Specifications

In a 23,900 gallon pool that should have given me around 30ppm or so....not 55.

[PoolDoc]

Partly, you're overestimating your gallons. Pool companies always quote volume at the 'running over the sides' level, not the actual level.

It's not really a problem, though, so I'm not inclined to put much effort into figuring out exactly how it happened.

[Jacob99]

LoL...I appreciate your honesty. So from a quick search here the rule of thumb is to keep FC at about 8% of the CYA?

[Watermom]

Take a look at the Best Guess Chlorine Chart below for the correlation between CYA and needed chlorine levels.

[PoolDoc]

So from a quick search here the rule of thumb is to keep FC at about 8% of the CYA?

That will work, most of the time. You can't kill established biofilms (slime, black algae, mustard algae) that way, however.

[Jacob99]

I tested my CYA again today. I think yesterday's results weren't accurate. After reading some more on this site, I guess the CYA should be tested on water at room temperature, but I tested with water immediately out of the pool which was only around 55 degrees. I got a new water sample first thing this morning and just tested it. I also tested outside for lighting purposes. Results today are between 35-40 which is right around my original target.

However, today my CC crept up from .4 to .8. My water is still pretty darn clear, but maybe I have the start of an algae growth? I haven't been able to brush my walls or vacuum my pool bottom due to the water temps. Pool was installed too early in the season!

FC: 2.6
CC: 0.8
pH: 7.2
TA: 60
CYA: 40ish

[Watermom]

Why can't you vacuum or brush? My water is still cool (haven't measured the temp) and I've been vacuuming for awhile now. Probably the first time was sometime at the end of March and I doubt my water was any warmer than 55 at that point.

By the way --- to save on your reagents, use the 10ml water sample instead of the 25ml sample. A testing margin of 0.5 is just fine and it isn't worth the extra reagents to get a 0.2 margin.

[Jacob99]

Why can't you vacuum or brush? My water is still cool (haven't measured the temp) and I've been vacuuming for awhile now. Probably the first time was sometime at the end of March and I doubt my water was any warmer than 55 at that point.


So you actually go into the water to vacuum and brush or you do this from outside the pool?

[Watermom]

I just vac from outside the pool manually or I throw one of my automatic cleaners in. I have a Wanda the Whale and also a Polaris 65. No way I'd go in water that is that cold!

[Jacob99]

With a manual vacuum I don't think I would reach the middle, nor would I reach far enough down the walls to brush. I would be game for going in at 65 if it would just warm up a little.

[PoolDoc]

Feel the sides of your pool -- if they feel 'slimy' you have pre-algal biofilm. RAISE THE CHLORINE IMMEDIATELY

Regarding dosing, I'd feel better if you MAINTAINED 10% of CYA and shocked to 20%. (With 40 ppm CYA, 4 ppm normally; 'normal' shock to 8 ppm)

[Jacob99]

So, I've gotta say things are going well over all. I've had a lot of rain, and had to backwash 5 days after I put in my stabilizer but I'm still around 35-40ppm. I'm happier about my CC. I have has zero for the last 2 days....woot woot! FC has been holding pretty well too. I'm losing less than 1 ppm per day. Today I got down to 3.5ppm FC but it was actually 75 and sunny all day, so I didn't think that was all that bad. pH is still on the low side (7.1) so I added my 2nd box of Borax and we'll see how it is over the next couple days. Last box it jumped from 7.1 to 8.0, then back down to 7.2 2 days later...(no acid) still haven't quite figured out the pH. I did get to vacuum today for the first time ever, and I learned something - on a 30 foot pool, I need an automatic cleaner....lol. Definitely getting there though. My water has been clear since the pool was installed, and I've only had to put in liquid chlorine, stabilizer, and 2 boxes of Borax. Last couple days I've been dealing with a lot of pollen, but I put in a skimmer sock today and have already rinsed it twice - can't believe how much the skimmer sock is catching! It's all starting to come together and I have everyone here to thank for it. Feeling pretty good about this pool thing. Thanks to everyone who has helped me out! I'm not totally out of the woods yet, so stay tuned for more newbie questions.

Latest test results:

FC: 3.5
CC: 0!
pH: 7.1
TA: 60
CYA: 35-40

[Watermom]

Great report! Glad things are going well. Now, you just need to get that pool warmed up so you can go swimming!

You might want to bump the alk up just a little with some baking soda. That will help your pH be a little more stable.

Another comment --- did you backwash only to lower the water level in the pool? If so, just an FYI. You could have just dumped some water to waste instead of backwashing it out. Dumping to waste bypasses the filter and thus won't throw out any undissolved CYA. (Although, it was probably all dissolved after 5 days anyways.) Just wanted to mention that option for future reference and also for the benefit of anybody else who might be reading this thread.