400 cya

[atkinson40]

Tock H2O sample to dealer and he measured over 400 PPM CYA. Said the only way to reduce is to drain pool. Any other suggestions? Thanks kevin

[Watermom]

WOW! That is some bigtime CYA! The only way to reduce is to drain, but you don't always want to do that. Depending on the type of pool and level of water table you can either destroy a liner or float a pool out of the ground. Give some more information about your pool.

Having said that --- how did your dealer measure your CYA? Did he use a disappearing dot test? Even if he did, the test cannot differentiate values over 100. Did he dilute the sample?

We need more info .........

[PoolDoc]

There are 4 ways to reduce CYA:

1. drain and refill.
2. run with unstabilized chlorine for a couple of years.
3. use melamine -- it's been a mess, but Kem-Tek's chief chemist told me they expect to release a melamine kit with an effective clean up process this year.
4. let your pool go slimey . . . and let the bacteria eat it. Takes 1 month or more, and results are unpredictable. You can end up with ammonia as an end product and that's huge mess.

If you go with #2, it IS possible to run your pool, perfectly successfully with a CYA = 400, but it will take some adaptations. If you have a SWCG (salt water chlorine generator) it will be really easy -- even easier than if the CYA was at normal levels. And, if you have good access to inexpensive liquid chlorine (commercial bleach) that's pretty easy, too. But that stuff is more often available in Florida, than California. You have to make it nearby . . . and California doesn't like companies making much of anything in-state, especially not chemicals.

You WILL need accurate test results -- see the test kit info page in my signature -- and I wouldn't trust the results you got from your pool store. Your actually CYA level may be 100ppm (no big deal) rather than 400pmm.

[atkinson40]

You WILL need accurate test results -- see the test kit info page in my signature -- and I wouldn't trust the results you got from your pool store. Your actually CYA level may be 100ppm (no big deal) rather than 400pmm.

I have an in ground pool. Around 36000 gallons. My dealer diluted the water twice and still got a reading over 100ppm. The pool was drained once before when it was resurfaced about 10 years ago and didn't float. I'd prefer anything except draining if I could. Nobody uses our pool if that helps. Thanks kevin

[PoolDoc]

That's fine.

For now, buy some polyquat, to keep algae under control. You can get it locally, or here:
Kem-Tek 311-6 Pool and Spa 60-Percent Concentrated Algaecide, 1 Quart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI0Y/poolbooks)

That's a pretty good price, and if you have Amazon Prime, you can order Tuesday and have it Thursday. You'll probably want three quarts. What you don't use will keep indefinitely.

Also, order a K2006. You will HAVE to have one, to manage a pool with CYA that high. Info in the test kit page, in my signature. Depending on how you decide you want to run the pool, you may need to buy a pH meter, as well, since phenol red isn't reliable when you push chlorine levels as high as you'll need to do, with 400 ppm of CYA. But, we can work all that out later.

Meanwhile put 15 gallons (yes, 12) of plain 6% household bleach in the pool, to 'keep' the pool, till we get another program going.

Check your pH FIRST -- if it's above 8.0 or below 7.0 it has to be fixed BEFORE you add that much chlorine, since you won't get accurate pH readings after. In that case, only add 3 gallons of bleach (but, buy all 15)

[atkinson40]

Where do I get a PH meter?

A little more history.

The pool went green a couple of months ago and I've been fighting it ever since. I've added about 60 lbs of the granular chlorine and about 6 quarts of copper algaecide (%6). Pool went cloudy for about 2 weeks.

Now is clear but I have some algae growing along the walls again. I tried to upload a picture, but couldn't figure it out. The bottom of the pool is now covered with a fine white silt.

Dealer said chlorine level was off the chart. I'll get algaecide and kit ordered tomorrow. Also try to find liquid bleach. Thanks Kevin

[PoolDoc]

I've been working on a meter page, but hadn't finished.

Here's the best choice I've been able to find:

Milwaukee Instruments PH55 Waterproof Ph Dual Level LCD Tester (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002SGKE8W/poolbooks)
Milwaukee Instruments, Inc. pH 55 Specifications (http://www.milwaukeetesters.com/pH55.html) (mfg page)
and

Atlas Scientific pH Calibration Solution Kit 4, 7, and 10 - 4 Oz Bottles (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0063MWYMQ/poolbooks)

That's a fairly new meter on Amazon, for a really, really good price. Stay away from the Hanna Instruments -- I bought a boatload of those years ago for cheep, and they were cheep, cheep, cheep!

I would strongly recommend reading the manual before you buy -- testing with phenol red drops is pretty goof proof (unless you have problems with color perception). Testing with pH meters is NOT goof proof. Even a $2,000 lab meter that's capable of accuracy to 0.001 pH units can and WILL read ANY weird value under the sun, if it's not calibrated properly.

Here are the basics:
+ pH meters break when you drop them -- this is a characteristic, not a defect!
(They have super fragile glass bulbs on the wet end, unless you get some REALLY expensive industrial electrodes.)

+ pH meter sensors must NOT be allowed to dry out.
(Sometimes, you can restore them. Often, you have to trash the electrode, which means the entire unit, with an inexpensive meter like this)

+ pH meters MUST be calibrated regularly! Do NOT order a meter without calibration solutions!
(You might as well try to measure pH with a ruler -- you'd be about as accurate.)

In reading through some of the negative reviews on various meters, I noticed that frequently the complaints were from people who never understood what they were buying, and never bothered to learn. There are bad cheap meters out there (Hanna) and bad expensive ones. But even GOOD meters will NOT work, if you don't learn to use them.

They are not a 'dip, read, forget' tool. The one above appears to be about as easy as they come. It's not difficult or time consuming, if you just treat the meter right. If you do get one, please let me know how it works for you. I'm planning to get one shortly, but it's hard for me to evaluate things like that through a pool owner's eyes.

[atkinson40]

I'll hold off on the PH meter until you think I need it. My phenol red drop test indicates my PH is OK. Can this be correct?

Is liquid household bleach OK? I can get it for 99 cents a gallon. Do I need to add any immediately or wait until the level goes down from adding so much granular?

Is there a way to upload images after the thread is started. In reading the FAQ I understood it could only be done when starting a new thread.

Is it possible that my CYA is reading off the chart because I added a ton of granular and will go down if I stop adding stabilized chlorine?

Thank Kevin

[aylad]

Household bleach is okay. Keep in mind that the doses that Pooldoc advises are with 6% concentration--check the label on your bleach to make sure it's 6%, because it's also sold as 3%, in which case you'll need double the amount. Most of us around the forum do use bleach--just make sure it's plain, unscented...no additives, boosters, scents, etc.

You can send pics to poolforum@gmail.com and Ben can post them--just make sure you reference the URL so he'll know which thread they belong to.

If the "granular" you're talking about is dichlor, then yes, that's probably why your CYA reading is off the chart. CYA has to be added to your pool water--it's not a part of any fill water source that I know of. You shouldn't be using anymore stabilized chlorine at this point. That includes dichlor powder and trichlor tabs. The CYA will not go down just because you stop using the granular chlorine--once it's in the pool, there are only a couple of ways to remove it: 1)replacement of water (splashout, backwashing, drain/refill, etc), or 2) let the pool go slime green and the bacteria will break it down. Unfortunately, one of the byproducts that is created when you do this is ammonia, which consumes gimongous amounts of chlorine to break down--and with CYA as high as yours, I'm not sure that there's enough bleach in the state to do that. So...you'll either have to run the higher chlorine pool per Pooldoc's suggestions, or drain/refill some water.

[atkinson40]

Thanks Janet

I understood from Ben's post that the CYA would go down if I used unstabilized chlorine for a couple of years. Maybe I misunderstood. Regardless, I think I could figure out a way to void the water from the pool when I vacuum instead of returning it to the pool. Over time this would reduce it?? Correct?

I've ordered the algaecide and test kit from Ben's post. What should I test when I get it. Will I be able to redo the CYA test with the kit Ben suggested?

Thanks Kevin

[PoolDoc]

@Atkinson40: Regarding the pH meter, take a look at this page:
Do-I-Need-a-pH-Meter (Am-I-Color-Blind?) (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?15322)


@Aylad: "gimongous"????

[atkinson40]

@Atkinson40: Regarding the pH meter, take a look at this page:
Do-I-Need-a-pH-Meter (Am-I-Color-Blind?) (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?15322)


@Aylad: "gimongous"????

Thanks Ben,

I passed the color blind tests. So I'll hold off on the PH meter. I thought maybe the taylor kit wouldn't work testing PH with my cya so high.

I have a non-taylor kit and tested the PH and chlorine. PH is ideal and chlorine is darker than 5.

===========================================

One more question. I'm going to vent the pool water into my backyard. I have an orchard of over 100 fruit trees. Will any of the chemicals I've put in the pool hurt the trees? I use a copper funguscide on the trees during the dormant season. Will the copper algaecide I've been been putting in the pool hurt the trees

Thanks kevin

[PoolDoc]

OK.

1. CYA will drop over time -- like a couple of seasons. It will be VERY important to not let the pool get slimy over the winter; if you do, you'll probably have to drain and refill.

2. High chlorine can interfere with pH test results; high CYA does not. You may yet have to get a pH meter, but let me check.

3. Some of the questions you've asked can be answered better, if we know your equipment: pump / filter make & model.

4. I got the pool photo you sent -- does the pool look like that right now? What color / location / texture is the algae you have. Regardless, if you have algae, go ahead and add a quart of the poly quat (36K gallons, right?).

5. When are you going to be "venting" pool water? Why? How much?

6. Do you have any copper staining, from the algaecides? When did you add those? Exactly how much did you add, and what was the exact product name? How important is it to you to NOT have blue-green stains?


If you've got some algae now, you'll probably need some sodium bromide, to create a free halogen residual. But, we can wait a bit longer on that.

[aylad]

@Aylad:[/B] "gimongous"????

My youngest daughter's favorite descriptive non-word.... :) :) :)

[atkinson40]

3. pump / filter make & model.

4. I got the pool photo you sent -- does the pool look like that right now?

5. When are you going to be "venting" pool water? Why? How much?

6. How important is it to you to NOT have blue-green stains?



3. Pool Pump is Is Hayward. Filter is DE cartridge filter. I don't have a backwash valve so I need to take of the top of the filter canister and clean the cartridges by hand. I sent an image to your email.

4. I took that image yesterday. Algae is green, along the sides of the pool. I can't tell the texture because it is a very thin film in the roughness of the pool surface.

5. I'm going to be venting pool water when I vacuum. Right now the bottom is covered with a fine silt from all the additions of the algaecide. The silt has a blue tint to it. Cleaning the filter is a pain in the pompous and I thought I'd kill 2 birds with one stone. Every time I vacuum, I'll be reducing the CYA by venting some water and at the same time not plugging up my filter.

Draining my pool will cost $500-$600 in water here in this desert of San Diego. If I do it a little at a time, over time, my water bill won't be so big. Also if the water vent won't hurt my trees, they need the water. During the summer my H20 bill is about $200 a month to keep them happy.

6. No copper stains that I can see. I don't care if I get some. The only thing I care about is no algae. The county of San Diego flies over in helicopters and takes pictures of pools that are green and then comes knocking on your door demanding a fix or a fine and they will add some pesticide to your pool for mosquitoes if you don't act. Don't want that.

I've added about 6 quarts of this product over the last 2 months. Its the only thing that's been effective against the algae.

http://www.lesliespool.com/Home/Pool-Chemicals/Algae-Control/14018.html

Thanks Kevin

[PoolDoc]

The county of San Diego flies over in helicopters and takes pictures of pools that are green and then comes knocking on your door demanding a fix or a fine and they will add some pesticide to your pool for mosquitoes if you don't act.

Wow! I've joked about the Swimming Pool Police, on occasion. But I never knew that there were any such things!

[atkinson40]

How high am I going to run the Chlorine? Can I test it accurately with the CYA so high? Do I still need to add the bleach with the chlorine reading over 5ppm? Thanks Kevin

[PoolDoc]

How high am I going to run the Chlorine?

Depends on your actual CYA level. We won't know till you get the K2006.


Can I test it accurately with the CYA so high?

Yes, but I'll need to walk you through it, and you'll need a gallon of distilled water (water section at Walmart), and something like a stainless 1/4 cup measuring cup.


Do I still need to add the bleach with the chlorine reading over 5ppm?

You EITHER have to use higher chlorine (very dark yellow to orange) OR you have to use an algaecide.

[atkinson40]

My Taylor test kit came. What tests do I now run and how? CYA?? Thanks kevin

[PoolDoc]

Yes, please, and pH and chlorine.

Given that you already suspect a CYA > 200 ppm, may I suggest you test a diluted sample, like this:

1. Collect 1/2 cup of pool water
2. Add 1/2 cup of tap water & mix
3. Fill your CYA sample bottle to the first line.
4. Add your CYA reagent & mix
5. Wait 60 seconds, and mix again
6. Wait 30 seconds
7. Hold the sample tube at waste height, outside in good light but not direct sun
8. Add CYA mix to the tube until the dot at the bottom disappears.
9. Read the scale on the side of the tube, corresponding to the sample level inside the tube.
10. Multiply this reading x2 -- that is your CYA result in ppm.

[atkinson40]

Ben, Is there a place on the forum that simplifies the ph and cl tests with the taylor kit? I'm trying to understand the directions and its hurting my brain. Or do I just need to try harder? Thanks Kevin

[Watermom]

See if this helps. If you need more information, let us know.

http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products_choose_slideshow.asp

http://www.taylortechnologies.com/ChemistryTopicsCM.ASP?ContentID=11

[atkinson40]

Performed the following tests:

1. ph is a little less than 7. Will go to find borax and wait for instructions.

2. Free chlorine test does not turn pink when powder is added. (indicating no free ch?) Will get gallons of bleach. I did not continue on to combined ch test.

3. CYA test per Ben's directions: 7 ml of half diluted pool water. 7ml of reagent. Added this to tube until dot disappears and the level only comes up to about a third of the way to the 100 mark. Multiply this by 2 to get 60. Can I say YIPPIE!!! ??? Maybe my CYA isn't so high after all?? What's up with my pool supply store who gave me a 400 CYA reading? Thanks Kevin

[PoolDoc]

What's up with my pool supply store who gave me a 400 CYA reading?

Once people get their K-2006, more often then not they discover that their pool store's testing was bogus. What people don't realize is that pool stores have a NEGATIVE incentive to provide accurate testing, because ACCURATE testing reduces chemical sales!

=> With at 36K pool at pH less than 7.0, start with 2 boxes (added slowly to the skimmer, pump on), wait 4 hours, and retest.

=> You really, really want to avoid zero chlorine.

[atkinson40]

Added 2 boxes of Borax. Now that I know my pool's not a disaster due to high CYA, what is maintenance chlorine levels? Should I use bleach? How many gallons a week of the %6? Thanks Kevin

[PoolDoc]

There are many ways to do it.

One very easy way is to use trichlor, with a floater or two, to maintain a constant chlorine feed, and bleach to kick it up 1x per week. By using both, your CYA will move upwards pretty slowly.

You know about bleach; here are the other items:

Trichlor tabs: buy at at Sams Club IF you can buy the PoolBrand product in the 40lb bucket OR Kem-Tek 3" Trichlor 35lbs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEHYQ/poolbooks) @ Amazon . Do NOT buy from Costco, Walmart or local pool stores - most are selling trichlor blends which can be a real problem. If you find the Kem-Tek brand at Home Depot or Lowes, that's OK. Other brands, you have to learn to read the chemical ingredients section of the labels VERY carefully!

Trichlor floater: This one is typical, and fine - Kem-Tek 879 Pool Floating Tablet Dispenser Pool and Spa Accessories (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FJVRAS/poolbooks), but if you want to buy that locally, I think most of them are fine. If one DOES spill trichlor tabs in your pool, get them up quickly -- they will often leave a very difficult to remove stain, if left on the pool for hours.

[atkinson40]

Tried the free chl test and after adding 2 spoons of powder the sample now turns pink. But after 30 drops of the R0871 it still doesn't turn back to clear. Over the past 2 weeks I've added about 20 gallons of bleach. No other chl added. I'm waiting for the tabs to come in the mail. Am I doing the test wrong somehow? Thanks kevin

[PoolDoc]

Just means your chlorine is higher than 15 ppm -- assuming you are using the 10 ml sample size (the lowest sample size).

[atkinson40]

OK, I'm a doofus. I went to the pool store today to talk about the differences in their/my cya readings and the clerk pointed out to me that the scale on the sample tube was inverted. Soooo this means they were correct and my cya is over 400. The dot disappears about a third of the way up to 100. Given the logarithmic type scale I can only imagine it is actually over 400.

I'm going to bite the bullet and drain the pool. It was drained once before to have it re-plastered and didn't float so I'm hoping I can do it again. Any precautions?? I've found a way to use the pool pump to drain it. Anything I should be aware of before I start? Thanks kevin

[PoolDoc]

Just make SURE the ground is NOT wet; pools literally float up out of saturated ground.

That's probably not an issue in San Diego, but still . . .

(Embarrassment: it could be worse. I've still never published the story of how I turned a 300,000 pool DARK purple while it was full of swimmers -- testing a new idea that turned out to be a really, really bad one! It's been years, but still is uncomfortable to recall!)

[Watermom]

(Embarrassment: it could be worse. I've still never published the story of how I turned a 300,000 pool DARK purple while it was full of swimmers -- testing a new idea that turned out to be a really, really bad one! It's been years, but still is uncomfortable to recall!)

Ok, Ben, give. You can't give that little blip without telling the story.

[PoolDoc]

It's too long a story. Ask me in July . . . if traffic dies down. ;)

(I can't believe the metrics I'm seeing today. If it goes up in June, we are going to be SO hammered!!)

[Watermom]

(I can't believe the metrics I'm seeing today. If it goes up in June, we are going to be SO hammered!!)

I know! I need to be researching online to find steps for my pool since my old ones won't work with the new pool but I can seem to get a break in posts to take care of my own pool issues!

[BigDave]

I know! I need to be researching online to find steps for my pool since my old ones won't work with the new pool but I can seem to get a break in posts to take care of my own pool issues!

Maybe you should start a new thread asking your equipment questions. ;)

Oh, You did. I'm so far behind here right now.

[atkinson40]

Drained and filled the pool. Took over 2 days. But WOW. The effectiveness of adding bleach is now remarkable. The fresh water was a little green and I added about about 12 gallons of bleach and a quart of Cu algaecide. All algae that I've been fighting for months to get off the sides of the pool disappeared over night.

I'll start doing ph, cl and cya tests over the next few days, Thanks kevin

[BigDave]

You don't really need the algecide - chlorine is a very effective algecide. Copper comes with it's own set of troubles. Please don't pollute all that nice new water with that nasty old copper.

Start testing pH, FC, CC, and TA right away. With a plaster pool, you'll also need to know your CH.
How are you planning to add stabilizer to you new water? How much do you plan to add?