Cloudy Water

[chrisandtim]

I am usually pretty good at resolving my pool issues but this year I am stuck. AG Pool opened early due to warm weather. It was green so I treated with liquid chlorine. It went away but I have cloudy water, which I cannot clear. I have a Taylor test kit & hear are my results:

FC: 14
CC: .2
CYA: 40 (but of course water is cloudy!)
pH: 7.2
TA: 100

Do not test for calcium hardness as I have a vinyl lined pool. I have backwashed filter. Sand is just a few years old. Strong pressure coming from return so pump & filter seem to be working well. I've been keeping chlorine level high but still have cloudy water. Also tried a clarifier and when that didn't work, tried a floc treatment that was supposed to drop everything to the bottom to vac to waste. Well, it is morning & it did not drop to bottom.

Any other ideas? I have run out of ideas - short of emptying & getting new water, which seems like a last resort. Do I just keep filter running & hope it will clear?

Any advice welcome. Thanks.

[aylad]

Hello, and welcome to the forum!!

First off, don't put anymore clarifier or floc into the pool. They have their place--but it's usually as a last resort and I don't think you're there yet. Go ahead and run a test for calcium hardness--you don't necessarily need it in a vinyl pool, but if your level is too high, it's one of the things that can cloud your water. What form of chlorine do you usually use? Do you have a pressure gauge on your filter? Is the pressure rising as your pump is running, and when you backwash do you see dirty water? How high are you letting the pressure go before you backwash? (Remember that a dirty filter will filter much better than a clean one--you only need to backwash when your pressure is 8-10psi over your "clean" pressure.) Do you see anything blowing back into the pool from your returns? What size pump and filter do you have?


There is another trick you can use with DE to help a sand filter work better--but let's start with the answers to the above questions before we go that route......if you don't have a working pressure gauge on your filter, your next step is to get one!!

[PoolDoc]

Hi Chris-n-Tim;

You're in Massachusetts . . . so I'm guessing you may have an above-ground?

A very, very common cause of problems like yours is that pools, and especially AG pools, are installed with big pumps and little filters, when what's really need are little pumps and big filters. The result is the big pump blows the sand out of the little filter, after a season or two. Since there's not much sand, and not much resistance, you'll get "strong pressure coming from return", but the water won't be well filtered. You can get by when all's well, but when you have a pool full of tiny dead algae particles, things don't go so well, because the big pump blows the little algae through the small amount of remaining sand in the little filter.

So . . . the way to test if this IS the problem is to add DE powder, like Janet mentioned . . . and then go watch a return. If you see white DE powder blowing back into the pool, that's your clue: your filter needs work. Actually, what probably is needed is to
1. add sand to the filter;
2. install a valve (or maybe, partially close an existing valve) to SLOW flow through the filter;
3. and look into swapping the impeller in your pump for a smaller one, so you can slow flow without wasting electricity.

If missing sand IS your problem, ironically, this can make clarifier and floc fail. Those products can (don't always, though) make little particles like algae clump together. But, if the (technical language alert!) "shear forces" are too high -- and they probably are in a big pump/little filter situation -- the clumps will be broken apart. Once that happens the floc / clarifier / dirt blend is ACTUALLY harder to filter, and now the floc or clarifier that's attached can make it HARDER to filter the stuff out.

Of course, there are other possibilities. But it would be a good idea to do the DE test, answer the questions Janet listed, and if you can, send pictures of your pool, pump, and filter to poolforum@gmail.com so we can see exactly what you've got.

Good luck.

[chrisandtim]

Thanks. I will test for calcium hardness - but typically mine is low not hard; but I will check.

There is a pressure gauge on the filter. I suspect it doesn't work as it never really changes, LOL. I've never bothered changing it. I've backwashed recently after vacuuming, basically after return flow gets low. When I backwash, there is dirty water that appears in the glass, then it clears - like normal. During a regular season I do not usually back wash very often. It's usually only during opening that I have to backwash more than normal.

Nothing seen coming from return into the pool. I use liquid chlorine - 12%. I usually just follow BBB method & my pool is normally crystal clear. I'm not one for adding a lot of stuff to it - except this time when I tried the clarifier & floc - will hold off on doing any more of that though.

Let's see....pump is I think 1.5 hp Hayward & filter size...not sure...will have to go back out & check. Not thrilled with the idea of messing with the impeller or filter as I have never had a problem before.

[PoolDoc]

Not thrilled with the idea of messing with the impeller or filter as I have never had a problem before.

Do the DE test, then. If your filter holds DE, it will also filter algae, eventually. With the floc-ed and clarified water, it will help if you can slow the flow down, however.

[chrisandtim]

Do I just put DE in the skimmer to do that test? Is there a way to buy a small bag of DE? I used to have a DE filter & all I remember are those large bags of it.

[Watermom]

I'm not sure what to tell you about the sizes of DE bags available. Somebody else will probably know.

But, here are directions for trying the DE. Adding DE to a Sand Filter (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3742)

[PoolDoc]

This is the smallest and cheapest delivered unit I can find:
Kem-Tek 342 Diatomaceous Earth Filter Aid 12 lbs @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B006MY73AI/poolbooks) => $19

Shipping is free, if you have Amazon Prime OR if you order $25 worth of stuff ($6 more). I have found 10# boxes for less at Home Depot locally, but sometimes they've had it, and sometimes they didn't. If you DO get it, it lasts indefinitely, and will help remove fine particles from the water IF it doesn't go through the filter. (It will also make your filter stop up faster!).

[chrisandtim]

Thanks.

Before I go the DE route, any other suggestions from anyone?

And I wanted to explain my hesitation on messing with the impeller, etc. - I just do not think this is the cause of the problem. If this were the issue, wouldn't it have been a problem before? The water was cloudy before I turned on the pump & filter so I just do not think this is causing the problem.

[aylad]

You asked for suggestions, so we gave you several.....the filter is the main suspect here. We're trying to help you troubleshoot it. But, it's your pool!

Janet

[chrisandtim]

Thanks Janet. From your first answer it sounded like you had some other suggestions before going the DE route? You had also asked for pump & filter info:

Hayward 1.5 HP Hayward HP Power-Flo economy pump for above ground pools
Filter is a W. Cooper Industries Ranger Series Sand Filter Model RS1815 & the multiport valve model number is TM-12-L. (needs new pressure gauge)

From the paperwork I have the valve size on this model is 1 1/2", tank diameter is 18" & the turnover rate is 12,760 gallons per 8 hours. My pool has 11,000 gallons of water.

[PoolDoc]

+ The impeller thing is a long term fix . . . for later, not now.

+ Your pump is too big; your filter is too small. This is SNAFU for AG pool installations: it's not your fault, but it is (now) your problem.

+ Your cloudy water is (probably) algae; you've made the situation much worse by adding clarifier and floc, and then forcing it through the undersized filter with the oversized pump, breaking the floc particles (if they existed). Now the floc and clarifier are acting to KEEP the goo in the water, instead of helping you get it out. With these additions, you have moved from state SNAFU to state FUBAR. (This is why we usually don't recommend those products -- people do the "some is good; more must be better" thing, and end up where you are.)

+ Your water won't clear, unless you can filter. It appears that you can't filter, but we're not sure. That's why we suggested the DE test.

+ You have three options that we know of:
1. you can drain and refill -- of course, this can destroy in-ground liner pools, and is risky with above ground pools, unless you know what you are doing.
2. you can test your filter, and fix it if necessary -- that's what the DE will do initially. If your filter is OK, the DE will help filter the fine particles . . . but at the cost of a LOT of backwashing.
3. you can get a new, bigger cartridge or DE filter and clean up your pool rapidly, especially with a LARGE DE filter. Here's an option available on Amazon:

Hayward C12002 Star-Clear 120-Square-Foot 2-Inch FIP Pipe Pool Filter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002EL40HM/poolbooks)
You can probably clear the pool in less than a week with that -- even with the floc and goo -- but you'll need a valve to throttle back flow: pressure loss will be so low on that filter, that you'll overload up the pump if you don't. After that, your pool will be clearer than you've seen it before.


We really don't have anything else to offer you.

Sorry.

[chrisandtim]

That's fine - just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something else & posted the size of pump, etc. just to make sure it was an oversized pump/undersized filter problem.
I'll make sure CH is not high and assuming that it is not, I will start with the DE test & see where that leads.

[PoolDoc]

just to make sure it was an oversized pump/undersized filter problem.

We're sure your pump is too big and your filter is too small; but we're not 100% sure that is "THE" problem here: that's why we want you to check your filter!

[chrisandtim]

So, got a new pressure gauge, & just did the DE test. 3/4 cup of DE seemed to hold - pressure just increased by 2. Good, right?

1. Will this help filter out what needs to be filtered out?
2. I have bought a smaller pump - 1 HP pump w/2 speed - which the pool store guy said was more appropriate for my filter size. He said this was likely the problem. So, that is my long term solution. What do you think?

Is there something else I should be doing?

[PoolDoc]

just did the DE test. 3/4 cup of DE seemed to hold - pressure just increased by 2. Good, right?
Yes!


Will this help filter out what needs to be filtered out?
Yes, but at the cost of very frequent backwashes. Let the pressure increase 6 - 8 pounds before you backwash.


I have bought a smaller pump - 1 HP pump w/2 speed - which the pool store guy said was more appropriate for my filter size. He said this was likely the problem.

Excellent idea, in general. I don't recall what filter you have -- it really, really helps if you'll post your pool info in your signature, so we can just look up and review what YOUR pool is like. (Actually, I just added -- check and correct it, if you don't mind.)

However, the floc and clarifier in excess can be a problem. There's another possibility that I've just begun discussing with a number of the more technical people on the forum: that the sand filter not only FAILS to filter the algae, but that pushing the dead algae THRU the filter fractures the pieces to the point that they become unfilterable, not only with sand, but also with DE and cartridges. I'll try to update you on this, as we work on a reaching a conclusion and response.

[chrisandtim]

Thanks much. I can't see my signature when I am online here. When I go to settings & edit signature it looks okay, although I get an error message that signature is too long.

I may be imagining it but it looks a little clearer. It is still cloudy but I can see the bottom where I couldn't see it before. Looking forward to reading the results of the excess floc & clarifier. I did not use a lot (probably less than was recommended on the package) but yes, I used first a clarifier & then a floc so both are in there.

[PoolDoc]

We're running into a bunch of these problems this spring, and just filtering is taking forever.

I'm trying to work out a new solution, and will post more later. But, do this:

1. Add a full gallon of plain 6% bleach this evening.
2. Then, turn your pool OFF.
3. Tomorrow evening, test the water. If there is ANY sign of algae OR if the chlorine level is below 'dark yellow' (OTO) or 10 ppm (FAS-DPD) add another gallon. Do NOT turn the pump on.
4. Monday morning, take a look, and tell me what it looks like.

Meanwhile, let me know if you have a full manual vacuum system (head, pole, hose) and if you can 'vacuum to waste'.

[chrisandtim]

Sorry - just getting back here today - been busy.

So, I will do this tonight - with the only change being that I do not have 6% bleach on hand but have 12% liquid chlorine. Not sure I'll get an answer from you before I do this - but my guess is to add half a gallon of the 12%. If that's wrong, let me know.
Then I will turn off - and I assume leave off all day tomorrow.
Tomorrow evening I will test. You say to add more chlorine if it is below 10 ppm but not turn pump on.
(But I feel the pump should be on when I add the chlorine & then I will turn off? Please advise.) [ <= YES, pump on - PoolDoc; further response later ]
Will then let you know what it looks like on Wednesday.

======================================

Forgot to answer your last question - yes, I have a full manual vacuum system & I am able to vacuum to waste.

[PoolDoc]

Sounds good.

You may end up wanting some PAC (polyaluminum chloride) floc. Hopefully not, but unfortunately stocks seem to be running low. Here are the only products I've been able to ID as definitely PAC, if you want to order 'just in case', since shipping delays are likely:

GLB Pool & Spa Products 71408 1-Quart Drop n' Vac Pool Water Clarifier @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002KT6TY/poolbooks)
Blue Wave Super Floc 4 x 1 qt. @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007YUQTT0/poolbooks) - 4 days to ship
Proteam Superfloc Clarifier (not available at Amazon)

[chrisandtim]

Reporting my results.....pool still is cloudy. Not as cloudy as when I first posted but about the same as after I started with the DE. I can see the bottom but it is not sparkling clear. I will email a photo.

Last night when I tested, the FC was a little over 10 but the CC was at .6 so I added the balance of the gallon of 12.5 liquid chlorine. Let the pool sit overnight without pump running. Here are my readings this morning:

FC. 14.2
CC: .2
PH: 7.2
TA: 120
CYA: ~35 (between the 30 and 40 mark)

CH: non existent - would not turn red. I usually do not test for this with my vinyl pool but it seems odd to me that this has gone down.

Not sure if it matters but it has been rainy the past couple of days.

I ordered the GLB product you linked to above. It is not here yet, will probably arrive in a couple of days. I can keep filtering through the DE, which seemed to help a little, but for now pump is still off until I come back later to read.

As I said, I bought a smaller pump but won't be able to install that for a couple of weeks as my husband is out of town on business and I can't do it alone. I suppose I could add in a valve between pump and filter...but would need to go to pool store to get those items.

[PoolDoc]

I don't think I spelled this out before, but I will now:

+ If the algae & debris doesn't settle after 48 hours with pump off, turn the pump back on -- it's not going to work that way.
+ Do NOT use the PAC (GLB product) until you are (a) able to throttle the flow OR (b) have a way (valve?) to throttle flow now. Do NOT push the PAC floc through the filter; that will make things worse.
+ If and when you have no more green ANYWHERE in the pool, you can let your chlorine levels drop to those matching your CYA level -- see the Best Guess chart in my signature for details.

[chrisandtim]

Okay -

Will turn pump back on and continue on with DE in the filter.
Will let FC go back down to normal level as there is no green anywhere in pool.

As for PAC, can I use it when I have my lower HP pump going and running on low or do I also need an additional way to slow down flow? Here is my new pump info: Pentair Optiflow 1 HP two-speed, model number 340071

[PoolDoc]

As for PAC, can I use it when I have my lower HP pump going and running on low or do I also need an additional way to slow down flow? Here is my new pump info: Pentair Optiflow 1 HP two-speed, model number 340071

Yes.

[PoolDoc]

Your photo:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8SSQx0f1zHQ/T6wQZIfu2aI/AAAAAAAACxY/ZD4B3yuk6gA/s800/photo.JPG