Chemical Help

[mreesept]

I am a pool owner for 10 years but always struggled with keeping Chlorine up...I have stabilized in the past but did not often check CYA levels.
Last year I kept getting no chlorine or very low chlorine, low pH and high TA readings on my test strips no matter how much chlorine and pH up I added and then the water got very cloudy.
I finally broke down and went to the pool store where they told me my TA was off the chart high and gave me "low and slow" to improve it. I was able to get the pool clear after hundreds of dollars in their chemicals.
I went out and bought several brands of strips including a digital test strip reader and realized that the pool store was right as I had pH and TA, and I think I must have had a bad batch of strips at one point.

Here is where I am at now:

Taylor 2006 ordered via amazon tonight to get more accurate results.

Chemical Values the best I can tell from 3 types of test strips (all reading the same, and are the same as the pool store):
pH 8.1
TA 300+
CYA 0-30
Chlorine 0
I just removed the cover with semi clear green tinted water with silt on the bottom. (My pool has overhaning oak trees and I use a mesh safety cover)


I will verify values with my new Taylor kit.

My real question is:
Should I stabilize before taking on the pH and TA?
Should I wait until put bleach in until pH is ok?

What should my plan of attack be???

I plan on trying the BBB method but I just do not know where to start at this point since my numbers are so "off".


(It is really crazy that I have not had a good handle on my pool for 10 years. I avoided pool stores because they always wanted me to spend hundreds no matter what my values were. I have always been good with 3" tablets and basic shock and occasional pH up until the last 2-3 years when I struggled to get a chlorine level no matter how much chlorine I put in my pool, even though the water was clear.)

[PoolDoc]

You need to do both at the same time -- pH and chlorine. It shouldn't be a problem, though.

1. Read through the muriatic acid guide: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111

2. If you are comfortable with muriatic acid, buy 1 - 2 gallons per 10,000 gallons in your pool. Otherwise, buy sodium bisulfate ("Lo-n-Slo"; many other names).

3. Buy 6 gallons of plain 6% household bleach per 10,000 gallons of pool water. Also, buy a cheap OTO (turns yellow) drops test kit.

4. With your pump running, and water circulating, add 1/2 gallon doses (or 4# doses of bisulfate -- dissolve in warm water, first) to your pool. Wait 4 hours, and test, before adding more. Once your pH is 7.6 or below, switch to ~1/4 gallon doses (estimate; do NOT measure muriatic!), and continue till your pH is just barely below 7.0. It will rise over time, so continue to hold pH to near 7.0, till the TA is below 100 ppm. Read this page for explanation: http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html

5. At the same time that you are lowering pH, add 2 gallons of bleach per 10,000 gallons of pool water, each evening. (Don't pour bleach into the same area, where you just poured acid!!). Test the pool each evening; if the chlorine level is dark yellow, skip that evening's dose. Otherwise, repeat.

6. Continue with this process till you have your K2006, and full test results. Send those results in, along with info on your pool's appearance and general information (gallons and such) and we can begin to move to next steps.

[mreesept]

My one set of test strips test for CYA and I am at 0-30. Should I try to stabilize first or at least get close with stabilizer before starting this process? (I expect my test kit in a few business days or a week at worst)

Thanks for your help.

[PoolDoc]

No!

Go ahead, and get going before your pool turns into a green swamp!!

[mreesept]

Ok Taylor 2006 arrived and I put one dose of .5 gal muratic acid and 3 gal 6% bleach and results as follows:
( I have a 18' by 36' in ground with about 22,000 gal.

PH 7.6
TA 240
FC 1
CC 14

CYA -???? I could not get a reading. I put it the whole way to the top and no change

[PoolDoc]

Sounds like your pool may have experienced the scourge of CYA eating bacteria -- it's fairly common. The real problem is that sometimes -- we don't know when -- the bacteria 'poop' ammonia back into the pool, as the by-product.

If you didn't make a mistake in your test results, that is almost certainly the problem (FC=1; CC=14; TC= 1+14 = 15). If this is happening your pool will likely have a strong 'chlorine' smell, from the chlor-amines that have formed.

Unfortunately, it can take an ENORMOUS amount of chlorine to get rid of the ammonia. But, there's no other solution that doesn't cost even more. So, do this:

1. Let the pH go back up; it will do so on it's own.
2. Keep the pump running 24/7
3. Adjust the eyeballs so they 'riffle' the pool surface.
4. Add 3 more gallons of bleach, wait 2 hours, and retest. If the CC has gone even higher, we've found the problem.

Once you've ID'd the problem, the only thing for it, is to keep chlorinating -- but let the pH stay high (7.8 - 8.0). Try to reach 25 ppm CC, and then hold it there. After a while (and a lot of bleach) the CC should begin dropping and the FC should begin rising.

If you have a Sams Club, it may be cheaper to buy a 50# bucket of dichlor or 40# bucket of trichlor, and use them. That will not be as hard on your liner, because those will be adding CYA. Trichlor would be best, especially if you can put it in the skimmer.

BUT, if you do this KEEP THE PH HIGH. Use borax, if you need to, to raise the pH. Borax is the ONLY chemical you can safely add on top of trichlor. Add it slowly to the skimmer.

[mreesept]

I have used stabilized 3" pucks before along with shock from SAMs club but I did not measure and put stabilizer in before.

I will put the bleach in tomorrow as I am not home tonight. I will measure Chlorine before and after adding the bleach.

==============================

OOPS!! sorry


I must have done something wrong when testing for chlorine yesterday, sorry. Re checked my chlorine this morning... FC 2 CC 4, pH 7.2, TA 210
(I did add another .5 gal of acid last night and 3 gal of bleach before checking forurm, thus the lower pH this morning)
Pool still slightly cloudy with greenish tint and silt on the bottom but looking better. I may be on the right track!!!

Thanks!!

[chem geek]

You can read about my personal experience with this effect in this thread (http://www.troublefreepool.com/it-can-happen-to-anyone-zero-chlorine-cya-ammonia-t10974.html) including a summary of readings and amount of chlorine in this post (http://www.troublefreepool.com/it-can-happen-to-anyone-zero-chlorine-cya-ammonia-t10974.html#p88238). Basically, your CC will take a roughly equal amount of chlorine, or perhaps some less, to get rid of it, but you may also still have ammonia in your pool from the bacterial conversion of CYA so adding chlorine in that case might increase CC even further in the short-run. There's not much you can do except oxidize it all away and chlorine is the least expensive and effective oxidizer for that purpose.

[PoolDoc]

If you can, pick up a few boxes of 20 Mule Team borax, to go along with the bleach and tabs. You're still showing high CC's even after the correction, and they clean up more nicely at a higher pH level. (Plus the CCs that form at high pH are better at killing algae!)

[mreesept]

My FC is 2, what should CC be???

I thought I was on the right track with FC 2 CC 4 and the pH and TA coming down.
I guess I am confused. Is it because my cya is 0? Is it possible that I just didn't stabilize enough in the past?
I know that I screwed up the pH and TA last year by adding too much baking soda and ph up.

[PoolDoc]

Normally, you want your CC level to at or below the lowest reading on your chlorine test. So, if you are using the FAS-DPD at the 1 drop = 0.5 ppm dilution, than you want a CC of 0.5 or less. If you are doing the 0.2 ppm dilution, than you want 0.2 ppm or less.

CC is chlorine that attached goo -- usually people goo -- but didn't finish the job. On an outdoor pool exposed to sunlight, you'll rarely have significant CC levels if
1. you chlorinate CONSISTENTLY;
2. you don't add pool store goo;
3. you haven't just had a ginormous pool party, with all sorts of people getting lotion or pee in the pool.

But, during start up, things are different. I could explain more, but it would probably just be confusing. Just add the borax and bleach and keep using the tabs, and let us know what's going on, every couple of days -- unless something goes wrong. You *should* see a clearing pool, rising FC levels, and dropping CC levels.

[mreesept]

Ok I added more bleach and the next day FC 1.5 CC 6 pH 7.2, not good.

I went to sams and started with pucks, and added 3 gal of bleach along with the borax. We will see what happens tomorrow.

[PoolDoc]

Yeah, it looks like you've got CYA converted to ammonia in your pool.

Just keep bleaching . . . but you WILL get better results if you'll get enough borax to kick the pH up above 7.6! (And, the borax will be good for your pool, later.)

[CarlD]

I'm learning from this! This is the first time I've seen a member have such high CC levels in a long time! I personally prefer to use Liquid Chlorine in 5 gallon carboys because it's the equivalent of 10+ gallons of bleach, all in one container. Of course I don't really worry about my 10 year old liner bleaching out, rather that doesn't leak!

[mreesept]

I have an old ammonia test kit and it showed 1ppm in my pool water. I just tested chlorine several hours after adding 2 lbs of old shock I had, several pucks in the skimmer and 4 gal of bleach yielded FC of 14 and surprising CC of 2.
I double checked it in another area of the pool and got FC 13 and CC 3. Does that sound right? I am new to this type of testing but following the procedure for 10ml.

Where in the pool is the best to get the water sample?

[PoolDoc]

I wouldn't worry about it. There are only two options: you can drain, clean and refill; or you can chlorinate till it's gone. Unless you are asking the question, "Should I drain the pool?", the question, "Exactly how much ammonia is there?" isn't really relevant.

A variation between FC=13 and FC=14 is certainly within the error range of that test . . . so it may not be an actual difference. But, depending on circulation patterns in your pool, it may not be an error. In that case, the 'best place' to get a sample, depends on which part of the pool you want to measure!

Are you thinking about draining and refilling? (Keep in mind, this is not really an option with a vinyl pool.) If not, just chlorinate till it's gone.

Just chl

[mreesept]

Mine is a vinyl pool and the liner is about 6 years old. I would hope not to drain now, although we will need a liner in the next few years because ours is wrinkled in the bottom of the shallow end and not looking so great in the deep end from shock lying at the bottom.

A quick check this morning had a FC of 10.5 but CC was up to 6 again. Does that sound right? Am I going in the right direction?? Would it be cost effective to do the liner now?? Cost of refill is $250 plus for me.

[PoolDoc]

New liner installed can go over $1,000 . . . and this is NOT the best time of year to go after one. The pool business has picked up, compared to last year, so the guys that didn't go belly up 2 years ago, are really busy. If you go after a new liner now, you'll be at the bottom of the list, and might not swim till July. Plus, when you pull a liner, there are often OTHER repairs that have to be done.

If you're OK with all that, go for it. Otherwise, keep chlorinating. But, do raise the pH with borax.

[aylad]

If you can wait until January/February to buy the new liner, the places (at least down here) often offer really good discounts on"last year's models" because the new liner patterns are published around March. I don't know if it's possible to install one in January in your climate, but you might could at least get the contract signed and get on the list for when the weather warms up--and save yourself some money that way. My new (discounted model) liner cost around $3K a couple of years ago, installed.

[mreesept]

FC went down and CC went up to 5 FCC and 8cc. I am putting in 3 gal of beach at night and morning. I will check levels later today and will post.

[PoolDoc]

Sounds pretty normal, for an ammonia filled pool. But, you'd be better off putting in 6 gallons at night, and skipping the AM dose. That way, all the chlorine you lose, will be lost converting ammonia, rather than losing some to sunlight.

[mreesept]

Update:

FC 15 CC 6 pH7.2 TA 200
Added more Borax and will keep adding chlorine.
Pool is more cloudy but no smell really noted.

============================================

I dont know if I am doing something wrong but my chlorine numbers are all over the mark... my FC dropped to 5 and CC now 11? I am using the 10mL method... I have taken the water from the same place and tried to be very consistant with measuring chlorine. Is this part of the process??? I add Chlorine FC goes up CC drops, then a few hours afterwords the FC is down and CC up???

[PoolDoc]

Cleaning up ammonia is not a nice, and well defined process. It's a messy, keep-adding-chlorine-till-the-ammonia is gone process.

We don't know how much ammonia is in your pool - some, most, or all of the CYA could have been converted. We don't whether it's just ammonia (which reacts quickly) or other things that can form, and which react slowly. There's no time line on this -- just that you'll probably be done by next week sometime.

The primary ingredient needed, besides chlorine, is P.O.P. -- Pool Owner Patience. What happens, where there's not enough POP, is the pool owners get desperate and in a hurry, and go to the pool store for a quick fix. The pool stores will almost ALWAYS sell you a quick fix, even though they don't have one. Well, in a way they do: the products they sell are a quick fix for the store owner's thin wallet, but not for your pool.

Sorry, but once the bacteria has filled your pool with ammonia 'pool' (or metabolic by-products, if you prefer) you're in for a lengthy and not entirely predictable recovery.

[Watermom]

But, the good news is that the process eventually will end! We see this every spring --- a frustrated pool owner who has a pool full of ammonia and they are dumping in bottles and bottles of bleach and they think it is never gonna hold and then one day it does! You can read through some of the older posts in the forum from previous springs where people have had this very same problem.

[mreesept]

I added 2 boxes of Borax but pH still 7.2
Water cloudy, I have been trying to vaccuum the bottom which has a fair amount of silt (I use a mesh loop lock cover and have shrubs close and overhaning oak trees)
FC 15.5
CC 7.5
pH 7.2
TA 210

No smell

===================================

Pool Doc,

Can you explain "wait time" for reading chlorine levels??

[PoolDoc]

+ Add 2 more boxes of borax, and then stop. Don't bother with more pH tests for now: they aren't very reliable with chlorine that high.
+ Dose each evening, but skip dosing when FC > 12 ppm in the evening.
+ Who said "wait time"?

[mreesept]

Re: spring startup

I don't think so, but it will slow reaction times, so you may want double or triple the time you wait before reading, especially on the chlorine and CYA tests.

PoolDoc / Ben
(This was in reaction to a question if 50 deg water changed the figures)

[PoolDoc]

Is your water still 50?

If so, it wouldn't be a bad idea to let tests stand for a full minute, before final mixing and reading.

[mreesept]

I am still getting super high CC levels.....
I have been able to get my FC up to over 10 at times but my CC level has been on the rise. I have gotten CC readings that seem to be outragous from what I have read on this forurm... over 11 at one point but not that high now. I still get in the 5-7 range which is still a very high reading. I did use a commercial "shut down" package from In The Swim before shut down in the fall. Could this effect my CC numbers??? Is there an end in site???

Recent Measurments:
FC 6.5
CC 7
pH 7.6

Is there ANYTHING I could be doing wrong with the Taylor test that could be giving me a false positive for CC? My powder that I add 2 scoops is not a fine powder but rather small crystals and does not dissolve real well. Most times it will not fully dissolve no matter how much i swirl.
My water is rather clear with sediment on the bottom and no odor?

Thanks,

Mike

[mreesept]

I ran out of cl testing reagent can't test until I get more. Water starting to clear but cc still up at last test. I just hope I am testing right.

[aylad]

Your testing method is right if you're:
1. Adding the scoops of powder to the sample,
2. Using the first reagent, counting drops to clear
3. Adding 5 drops of the second reagent, then
4. Counting drops to clear.

HighCC numbers are typical of ammonia cleanup. There IS an end to it, but it does take huge amounts of chlorine to get there.

[PoolDoc]

Recent Measurments:
FC 6.5
CC 7
pH 7.6
Is there ANYTHING I could be doing wrong with the Taylor test that could be giving me a false positive for CC?

Not likely. If you get a pink color, the DPD is working.

I haven't re-read the whole thread (forgive me Janet, Dave, Lisa!) but your levels are completely consistent with a pool that experienced bacterial metabolysis of CYA to ammonia or urea. There is absolutely nothing going on with your pool that is surprising or unexpected to us.

[mreesept]

I ran out of the 3/4 oz. of reagents already and have orderred replacements. Water appears to be clearing. I will update when I am able to test. (strips read no free cl but I understand they cut out at 10 ppm. I have been still adding bleach 1.5 gal a night and pucks in the skimmer.

[mreesept]

Able to test again:
FC 7.5
CC 2.5
pH 7.0
TA 160

Water still cloudy but clearing up significantly. Shallow end pretty clear but cannot see the bottom in the deep end.

[Watermom]

Keep hammering it with bleach.

[mreesept]

Away for two days (still pucks in the skimmer) and retested:

FC 5.0
CC 2.5
pH 7.2

Added 4 gal of bleach and pucks to the skimmer. Hope this changes soon, I hate my pool!!!. Water still cloudy but slowly improving.

[PoolDoc]

Hope this changes soon, I hate my pool!!!. Water still cloudy but slowly improving.

Pools are easy . . . but only if you don't let them get messed up. Everybody does, sooner or later. But, use this to encourage yourself to avoid such problems in the future: avoiding is MUCH easier than fixing!

I haven't checked your pool volume (can you put your pool info in YOUR signature? the link is in MY signature), but it looks like you might want to add some borax.

[mreesept]

I have added 4 boxes of Borax over the last week and the pool has stayed between 7.0 and 7.2.

My pool is 22,000 gal 18 x 36 in ground

[mreesept]

UPDATE:

Finally getting there.... water still cloudy, can see up to about 5 feet deep

FC: 5.5
CC: 1.0
pH 7.2
TA 160

My pH keeps dropping???? I have added box after box of Borax, any thoughts???

[PoolDoc]

Don't worry about what your pH is doing right now. Just add borax as needed. Once you have a stable pool -- no algae; no particular chlorine demand -- THEN we can look at lowering your alkalinity, and stabilizing your pH.

But, first things first!

[mreesept]

Am I close to being out of this mess with a CC of 1?? I have used about 25# of 3" pucks and too many gal of beach to even count. I have bought all of the local stores out of borax and big bottles of bleach. (They all look at me funny when I come to the store daily for 2 boxes of Borax and 4 bottles of bleach)

Today I had a low FC of .5 and CC of 1 but I put in 5 gal of bleach and now have a FC of 6 and CC of 1.

Recently I have added at least 10 boxes of Borax, but my pH still is at 7-7.2. Water still cloudy.

Thanks for the help.

[PoolDoc]

The way to tell is to look and see what happens overnight. If you have 6 ppm at 7 or 8 PM your time, and still have at least 5 ppm tomorrow morning . . . you are probably close to done.

[mreesept]

Still not there. FC still dropping to 2-3 at times. CC still at 1.5 and pH at 7.0 no matter how much borax I throw at it.

[mreesept]

Please Help....

Am I doing something wrong???
I have continued to have 3" pucks in the skimmer and have gone through a 50# bucket, I buy at least 3 gal of bleach and add every night and I still have FC from 1-4 but CC is still 1.5 to 2.0 but what is real concerning to me is that I am doing something wrong is the pH.... I add box after box of Borax and still my pH is going down to 6.8.

Is there any advantage to "washing soda" over borax?
The only reason is that the Washing soda is cheaper where I live. I have only added Borax but I have added probably added at least 12-15 boxes since this started. (I just don't want to screw it up by adding too much, or maybe that is not possible)

Also I add the Borax through the skimmer, is there a better way???

(I don't know if this is an issue but I have a Poplar and Oak tree overhanging the pool as well as arborvitae shrubs about 10' from the pool. The Poplar trees have been releasing a long skinny "thing" when their leaves come out and collect in my skimmer, I dont know if that will effect the pH.)

My water is now clear without any real odor.

Thanks for your help

InGround Vinyl pool, 18x36, 22,000 gal, sand filter, heat pump, Live in PA, overhanging trees over the pool

[Watermom]

This is a long thread. So that I don't have to reread 40-some posts, can you remind us what your CYA level is, when was the last time you added any and how much did you add, and what kind of test kit are you using.

[mreesept]

I am using a Taylor 2006 at your recommendation. My CYA was 0 when I started but I did add 4lb of stabilizer a week and a half ago which should be enough to get to 20 ppm, but have not tested it because I only have the basic start up re agents for the Taylor which has only enough for a few tests. I was going to wait until I got my CC to 0 first but I just cant seem to get there.

[Watermom]

The trichlor pucks are acidic and are driving your pH down. Continue to work on bringing it up. Washing soda will raise pH and alk whereas Borax mainly affects pH. Adding it slowly through the skimmer while the pump is running is the correct way to do it.

What is your chlorine reading in the evenings when you test (but before you add bleach)? How much chlorine are you losing overnight?

Go ahead and test the CYA level and report it. You can always buy refills on the CYA testing reagent.

[mreesept]

My CL readings at night are between 1-3ppm, I then add 3-5 gal of bleach, then it is then 5-7 on average with CC 1.5.

My pH was 6.8 today and TA was 140 the last I checked. So it sounds like I would be better to stay with Borax so I dont get my TA any higher. My jets are aimed at the surface to raise the pH but that has not seemed to work for me.

Is there anything wrong with adding bleach through the skimmer? I normally add at the return jet in the deep end.

Oh, do the 3" pucks from Sams club raise CYA?

Thanks,

Mike

[BigDave]

Yes the trichlor puck raise CYA. They also drop pH.

[mreesept]

Ok I went home for lunch and took all new measurements:

I am not sure if I did the CYA test right. I went until I could not even see a hint of black and got 70 but it started to dissapear at 100. This is shock because I had 0 to start and only added enough stabilizer (4lbs) to get to 20. I have gone through a 50lb bucket of pucks. I screwed up I guess by adding any at all since I was still adding chlorine by the 3" tabs. I just didnt realize they add that much that quick.

Here are my other values:
pH 6.8
TA 140
CYA 70 (I also checked this with test strips that I had and got the 30-50 range but I do not know how accurate those are)
FC 3
CC 3

Please help!!!
The 3 CC is frustrating since I thought I was out of this mess.