Pre-Filter on a Refill?

[Rottwieler]

Hey guys.
I've been snooping around here off and on over the winter, but now I'm ready to start getting serious as the grandson has already started using the pool.
The pool supply house says my water is full of minerals, etc. and that I need to drain the pool and re-fill.
I have several questions about that process, but my first question is whether it is worth it to pre-filter the fill water?
Our water here is very hard and full of all sorts of things. They actually advise against letting small children drink the stuff due to excessive amounts of fluoride.
I need to look up the stats on the pool, but I think it's about 20k gallons - modified kidney shape with a large wading step and depths from about 4' to 7'.
Is it OK to just pump out all of the water, scrub out the pool a bit, and start filling it back up?
We're in the Phoenix area so we're talking very dry soil. Pool is about 5 years old.
I'll snoop around looking for answers on my own, but the search function doesn't seem to work so point me in the right direction please.
I also need to find your recommended test kit... I think that's in the Tips.
Appreciate any guidance.
Sam

[aylad]

Hi Rotweiler, and welcome to the forum!

Has the pool supply house told you what minerals are in the water? Are they something you've added, or are they in the fill water? What kind of pool finish do you have--vinyl liner, plaster, gunite, etc?

The recommended test kit is the K-2006, and can be gotten for a very good price through the Amazon link in my sig. Try using the Google search feature linked in my sig, as well--it works much better than the v.bulletin search feature on this forum.

[PoolDoc]

The pool supply house says my water is full of minerals, etc. and that I need to drain the pool and re-fill.
I have several questions about that process, but my first question is whether it is worth it to pre-filter the fill water?

Call your water company, or check their website, and get their latest analysis. Then either post the link to the analysis, or send me a photo of it (poolforum@gmail.com) or transcribe the mineral section.


Is it OK to just pump out all of the water, scrub out the pool a bit, and start filling it back up?
We're in the Phoenix area so we're talking very dry soil.
In Phoenix, I don't think you're going to have any of the high water table problems we warn people of - the only concern would be water use restrictions. But if it's OK with the water company, it should be find to do just what you say.

One warning -- it's not good for plaster to get really hot and dry. So plan to clean quickly, and refill ASAP.

Without seeing the analysis, it's impossible to tell if it's worthwhile . . . or even practical to pre-filter it. Most minerals can be removed with the right zeolites, but setting up a system to do that would be quite expensive. Some metals can be removed more easily, but again, without seeing what you've got, it's impossible to say.

[Rottwieler]

OK. Thanks for the replies. I have been traveling for business and this got bumped back, but now I'm moving it back up to the top of my list.

I believe the pool is plaster. There is quite a bit of dirt/discoloration around the steps that scrubbing hasn't helped. I guess we'll need to do some painting.

Is there anything we need to be particularly careful of when cleaning the drained pool?

I have requested a copy of the latest water analysis from the water company and have ordered the test kit. I figured I'd take a pool sample down to Leslie's and see what their analysis says and post it along with the water company report.

When I get the test kit, would it be worthwhile to do testing on the pool water, the outside faucet water, and the softened and filtered house water, or am I going overboard?

I'm totally new to all of this and you guys tend to speak in code that I don't understand, so thank you for your help and patience.

Sam

[aylad]

It wouldn't hurt to test all three--except you don't need to waste the CYA reagent on any of the faucet or house water, because there won't be any in there. It's nice to know what the numbers are on your fill water.

We're here to help folks who are new at this--so don't be shy if someone posts something that you don't understand--ask, ask, ask!

Janet

[Rottwieler]

Here is what I could find from my water company:
(http://www.gwresources.com/resources/documents/residents/qualityreports/buckeye/bulfer_2010.pdf)

Substance......... MCLG or....MCL, TT or.....Lowest.....Highest.....Compliance
........................MRDLG......MRDL........... ..Level........Level........Achieved
Chlorine
[as Cl2] (ppm).... 4 ............ 4 ................. 0.2 ......... 2.6 ............ Yes
Haloacetic Acids
[HAA5] (ppb) .... NA .......... 60 ................ NA .......... 2.2 ............ Yes
Total Trihalomethanes
[TTHM’s] (ppb) . NA .......... 80 ................ NA .......... 14 ............. Yes

Inorganic Chemicals
Arsenic (ppb)
2008 Data ......... 0 ............ 10 ................ NA .......... 5.0 ............ Yes
Barium (ppm)
2007 Data ......... 2 ............ 2 .................. NA ......... 0.18 ............ Yes
Chromium (ppb)
2007 Data ....... 100 ......... 100 ................ NA .......... 28 .............. Yes
Fluoride (ppm)
2007 Data ......... 4 ............ 4 .................. NA .......... 1.2 ............. Yes
Nitrate (ppm)
[Nitrogen] ........ 10 .......... 10 .................. 5.8 ......... 6.8 ............. Yes
Selenium (ppb)
2007 Data ....... 50 ........... 50 .................. NA .......... 3.5 ............. Yes

Microbial Organisms
Total Coliform .. 0 ............. 1 ................... NA ........... 0 ............... Yes

Radionuclides
Alpha Emitters (pCi/L)
[2002 Data] ..... 0 ............ 15 ................... NA .......... 2.9 .............. Yes

Lead and Copper
Copper– less than 0.022 ppm
Lead — less than 3.8 ppb

Test kit should be here tomorrow.

[PoolDoc]

Not showing anything there that needs to be pre-filtered.

Of course, if the distance from the plant is great, and the distribution is old and iron . . . that's a different matter.

You can do the white bucket test:

1. 5 gallon CLEAN white plastic bucket
2. 4 gallons of tap water
3. 1/8 cup of bleach
4. 1/8 cup of baking soda
5. Mix, cover, wait 24 - 48 hours
6. If there's colored sediment on the bottom of the bucket, you might want to pre-filter.

Use Clorox bleach for this test; some cheaper bleaches might have small amounts of iron.

[Rottwieler]

Thanks Doc.
Been developing a new problem over the past week. Actually noticed it a couple of weeks ago after a bad dust storm that coated the bottom of the pool with dirt. The vacuum seemed to not be getting everything and I thought it was just the handy son not brushing very well, but then I brushed good and the dirty looking sediment doesn't come off. I haven't been adding ANY chemicals to the pool on anticipation of doing the drain and refill, but now I'm not sure when I will be able to do it. Might be several weeks. Anyway, over the past few days what was just dirty looking bottom corners has grown to cover most of the floor and lower walls... Any ideas?
Also, we have cartridge filters - 4 or 5 in the big compression tank - each one is about 3' or 3.5' long and about 6" around. We run the pump about 8 hours a day. Should we run the pump more, and how often should we clean the filters? Thanks. Sam

[Anonymous [GDPR] European in Spain]

I'll let the experts tell you more, but get some bleach/chlorine in there quick.

[PoolDoc]

It could be iron.

Go to Walmart, and get a bottle of Vitamin C tablets - small one is fine; larger TABLETS are better -- and a container of Iron Out (detergent section). Get some snack or sandwich baggies, if you don't have any.

1. Place a couple of tablets on a stained spot.

2. Put a couple of tablespoons of Iron out in a snack baggie, along with a couple of tablespoons of water. Force all the air out, and seal the baggie. (Do NOT suck on the baggie, to get the air out!!)

3. Get into the pool, with the baggie and an old cotton rag or towel. Carefully place the baggie on a stained spot, and then open it so the Iron Out is released. Cover with the towel to protect it from currents.

4. Check back in an hour, and see if the stains are affected.

5. While you're waiting, check the interior of your toilet tanks -- see if they are stained, and if so, what color.

Are you running the bucket test? Do you have a K-2006 on order?

[Rottwieler]

The white bottom portion of the chlorine tab floater is stained brown like rust. Toilet tanks look good.
You think maybe a recent dust storm blew some iron dust into the pool?
I got the test kit yesterday. Been trying to wade through the manual before wasting a bunch of reagent doing tests wrong.
I've also been trying to figure out exactly how much water my pool holds. We had been running on estimates of around 18k, but I can't find any documentation to confirm that and I'm thinking it might be much less. It's shaped sort of like an acoustic guitar body and varies between 3' and 5'6" + a broad step and a bench. I measure it at 28' x 17' at its longest and widest, but that doesn't help me much. I'm going to take more measurements and graph it. maybe I can get a good number that way.
I found a couple of recent water analysis reports from the pool store I'll share for the time being.
Here's what they're saying: FAC = 0, TAC = 0, CYA = 100, TA = 90, pH = 7.6, TDS = 2501, Pho = 100.
Full weekend scheduled. Hope to get bucket test going and do tests on the staining. Also hope to figure out how much water is in there and how to use the test kit.
I put in a couple of bags of shock and the water is looking very good.
I appreciate your help.
Sam

[PoolDoc]

You're welcome.

If you haven't ordered a K2006 yet, you might want to wait till Tuesday or Wednesday to do so. Stocks are low, and I've noticed that orders at Amazon are getting kicked over to high priced suppliers, as the regular ones are out of stock.

[Watermom]

Unless he is talking about a different kit, he says he got the Taylor K-2006 already. If that is the case, and your CYA reading is from testing done with the K-2006, it means that it actually could be much higher than 100 since no kit can differentiate at any levels higher than that. Dilute your water sample and run the CYA test again. Take one part pool water and mix it with one part distilled water. Run the test with that sample and then multiply the result by 2. if you still get a reading of 100, dilute it one part pool water and two parts distilled and multiply the result by 3. Repost with your number after doing this.

By the way, there is an online demo about using the Taylor kit. It might be helpful for you:

http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products_choose_slideshow.asp
http://www.taylortechnologies.com/ChemistryTopicsCM.ASP?ContentID=11

Hope this helps.

[Rottwieler]

OK, got the Taylor K2006C test kit and managed to do some testing.
It was late in the afternoon and the pool was registering Zero chlorine. No color change at all.
PH was high - 8.0 or a little darker - 10 drops to bring it down to around 7.4
Alkalinity came out at 210ppm.
I think I screwed up the Calcium hardness test. I'll try to redo it on Thursday.
Cyanuric acid was very high. The solution was so cloudy that it looked like skimmed milk. I didn't have any distilled water to cut the pool water with, but I would say it would take at least a 3:1 solution to get it to even register on the scale.
Does that mean I need to replace at least 2/3 of the pool water?
The Vitamin C test looks like it worked. The sock left a clean spot in the middle of the stain. I also dropped a couple of tablets in a shallow bucket of water and put the badly stained chlorine tab floater thing in it. It took all of that off.
I'm doing the bucket test of the tap water overnight tonight. I'll be away tomorrow so we'll see what it looks like tomorrow night or Thursday morning.
I did test Calcium hardness of the tap water and didn't get any color at all... I'm going to redo that test for the pool and the tap at the first opportunity.
So, assuming the bucket test is good, I'm assuming I need to at least partially drain the pool and refill it with fresh water.
Here's what I'm thinking I need to do:
1. Read up on Ascorbic Acid for removing rust stains and do that first. (clean filters, let chlorine stay low, adjust PH, add a bunch of Ascorbic Acid and run the pump)
2. Clean the filters again.
3. Drain most of the water out of the pool.
4. Add fresh water (and chlorine as it's filling?)
5. Add CYA slowly, running pump continuously and retesting after a couple of days.
6. Balance PH, Alkalinity, and Hardness and get Chlorine levels in range.
Is that all about right, or am I backwards on something? Have I left anything out?
I'll be asking for detailed guidance as I go through each step, especially when it comes to balancing the chemicals in the fresh water and trying to keep them that way.
Always open to information and suggestions.
Thanks,
Sam

[Watermom]

You won't need to do step #5. If you're doing a partial drain to lower CYA, don't add more!

You should try and get some distilled water and see if you can figure out what your CYA level is before you decide to start doing any draining.

[Rottwieler]

I had to go out of town on business for a week.
I can't seem to get a reading on Calcium Hardness...
When I do the test according to the instructions in the Taylor K-2006C, the sample turns red, but never turns blue as I add the R-0012; it just gets more washed-out pink...?
What is a typical number of Reagent drops for color change?
Without a good number to plug in for Calcium Hardness, I'm not sure how to deal with any of the other numbers. I have a little bit of scaling (white ring) on the tile at the water-line, but not bad. I'm doing the test exactly in accordance with the instructions with the kit. Is there something I can do differently, or is there a number I can plug in as an assumption?
When I tested before my trip, my PH was over 8 and my Alkalinity was at 210ppm.
Over the next day I added a full gallon of Muriatic Acid, but then had to leave for my trip.
Today I tested again and came up with very similar numbers. Here's the comparison:
First test:
Chlorine = 0.00
PH = 8+ (10 drops to 7.4)
AK = 210
Couldn't get a reading on Calcium Hardness - went from Red to Pink, but never Blue or Purple
CYA = Off the scale above 100ppm

Added a gallon of Muriatic Acid and Shocked a couple of days later (Shocking w/1lb of Calcium Hypochlorite once a week at night just to keep water sanitized), then was away for a week. Tested today when I got back and here's what I found:

Chlorine = 0.0
PH = 8 (7 drops to 7.4)
AK = 200
Couldn't get a reading for Calcium Hardness - went from Red to Pink
CYA off the scale above 100 (took the 50/50 mix of pool water and R-0013 reagent down to 7ml and added 7ml of Distilled Water - 2 parts Distilled Water + 1 part Pool Water + 1 part Reagent = about 65ppm on the scale)

Still have the brown stains.

Please give me a starting point. What needs to happen first?
I only get to concentrate on this in spurts so I need to take it step-by-step.
Thanks,
Sam

[aylad]

I think Pooldoc needs to check in on this one, at this point. I'll ask him to.

In AZ, it is not uncommon to have wildly high CH readings, especially if you're using cal-hypo to chlorinate with. OTOH, if your test results for CYA indicate a level of approximately 195 ppm, and you can easily run a pool with that level, as long as you follow the best guess chart and make sure your chlorine never drops below the minimum.

Let me email Ben and ask him to check in on this thread...

[PoolDoc]

I can't seem to get a reading on Calcium Hardness...
When I do the test according to the instructions in the Taylor K-2006C, the sample turns red, but never turns blue as I add the R-0012; it just gets more washed-out pink...?

Please do two things:
1. Test your tap water's hardness
2. Dilute your pool water 1:3 with steam distilled water (Walmart) (1/4 cup pool water + 3/4 cup distilled water) Mix and test THAT sample for hardness. Multiply result by 4.)

Once you know what your hardness is, you can look at this page, on bucket testing for the lime softening process to remove hardness:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16992