Spring opening cloudy pool excessively high PH > 8.2

[JuJuBee]

17 Apr 2012

Hello! Newbie here. O.k., I'm chatty so ...... I do have a current problem which I need advice on and will get to it after my "intro":

I'm really happy to have found this forum and motivated to save my moolah! (especially after taking huge paycuts two years ago due to economy and no increase in sight....) I'm a bit overwhelmed with all I've read so far, but it all makes logical sense. I don't have a problem understanding the chemistry and science behind it all. But I'm a bit week on mental organization so I'm going to continue following the advice to read, re-read, and then read again! until I can keep it all straight and in proper order.

I've always had diamond sparkling, crystal clear pool water whether it was our kiddie pools, quick-set pvc-frame pool or our in-ground liner pool. To say I'm overly fussy about my water is an understatement. Somewhere in my life I got the idea that my water had to look like it came from a perfect place in heaven.

We have used the company that installed our in-ground pool for opening and closing it since installation in 2007. We spend just under $1000 on opening costs including anywhere from $350-$450 of chemicals to take advantage of their spring "discount" (ahem....a savings of only $17.38 this yr :| ) Closing costs range from $450 - $500. Then we always have to purchase later in summer more silk sticks, granular chlorine or PH increaser or algaecide. Our yearly maintenance is over $2000 not adding in the increase in our water bill, gas or elec during those months.

For the most part, as your site says, the products do what they're suppose to do. However, they are pretty expensive (just the Chlor Silky Sticks 50lb cost $185 with spring discount.) But I have also noticed something about the routine I follow in using their chemicals (Bioguard & Natchem), and I am religious in my upkeep: it always yields water that is beautifu, yes, but very easily upset. Too easily. We have a strict weekend schedule where we vacuum the pool, backwash if necessary, then test and treat ph, chlorine and we include a treatment of algae preventor and a dose of Natchem Pool Perfect +Phos Free. Daily.... I shock if heavy swimming has taken place, I sometimes use the Viper auto vacuum for an hour or two if needed, and I always check the chlorine and PH levels so that I can catch any downturn as it's happening. Sounds overkill and I thought healthy pool water shouldn't require walking on eggshells if you stick to a consistent once-a-week care plan. Why am I so over attentive? Because when I have relaxed and let myself trust my weekend treatment, the water would get out of wack before the next weekend, sometimes as quickly as the 3rd day into the week. Then I struggle with getting my PH up (usually) or keeping my chlorine levels up to 1-3 ppm. Last year I went through hoards of chlorine - sticks, granular, & shock. It never seemed to keep and was always below 1 ppm by the next morning and many times even after being shocked the evening before. Two years before that, I went through buckets of their PH increaser in the spring and struggled to get it to stay over 7.2 the entire year (last year, my PH was easier to maintain.) I know weather can play a role in what is needed each year. I just don't believe that if you're as clean and neat as I am, and as consistent, that the water should so easily get out of wack.

Now - as for my problem this spring. Our pool is 32 x 16 with a 10 ft shallow end of 3-3.5 feet and a deep end of 5.5 - 6 feet. I've calculated the gallons of water is about 18,200? Our pool company advises us to keep our PH between 7.6 and 7.8 - a bit higher is better. We use them to open & close solely because we don't have the equipment to "blow out the pipes", etc. the way they can. We care about protecting our investment, the parts buried under the ground as well as the equipment above ground. We're too scared to brave opening and closing on our own knowing we are without backup savings at the present time and couldn't afford to "fix" anything from it not being done properly. (that's kind of problem #2 for this post)

It has been exactly 6 days since they opened our pool. Last year, it was clear and beautiful by day 3. This year, it is still cloudy/milky white and the PH continues to remain over 8.2. Having tried muratic acid the last time I dealt with cloudiness, I learned it works better, quicker and is much cheaper. Never again would I pay for PH decreaser. So my hubby poured 3/4 of the gallon into the pool. No change the next morning and it was still over 8.2. He poured the remainder of the bottle in the next day. It still tested over 8.2. We are just starting to see the bottom in the shallow end so it's slowly getting better, but still tests high PH. We can't really balance anything else until we get the PH below 8.2, right? Our chlorine fell rapidly over the past few days and now is just about 1 ppm. I told him to try the bottle of clarifier since mid-summer last year, I suddenly had a cloudy pool (but with lower PH of 7.2-7.6) and it didn't clear up until I used a clarifier ... then it was perfect the next morning. Not so this time.

I've poked around a bit on the forums but so far when I read about cloudy water, it always refers to getting the PH up to proper levels first. The tips page on cloudy water never mentions the scenario of extremely high PH that can't be brought down with a bottle of muratic acid. The temperatures have been warm this winter and spring so far. We have been averaging in the 60s but last week there were three days where we dipped to the low 30s at night but went up to 50 during the day. It's been just at 60 the past two days and it was 70s on Sunday before a big rain came in. We get down to the mid 40s at night.

Do I add more muratic acid? Is that safe to use that much? (just so you know, we do handle it safely...)

As for problem #2, being attached to them for opening and closing, they open with a Stow Away quart, an algaecide backup quart, a Natchem Spring Opening dose, and a spring pool shock treatment. For closing, our water tests before they treat were as follows:
2007 chlorine 1.0 PH 7.6 TA 150
2008 chlorine 0.0 PH 8.4 TA 180
2009 chlorine 0.0 PH 7.8 TA 240
2010 chlorine 0.0 PH 8.4 TA 240
2011 can't find the stupid bill...but most likely like 2010.
Then the company treats with a Winter shock treatment, Winter Algaecide 40, NatChem Fall closing dose, Anti-freeze.

Thanks, I look forward to your help and to learning as much as I can from all of you.

Sincerely,
JuJuBee

[aylad]

Wow--you do spend way too much time on caretaking for you to be having water problems that easily. Just out of curiousity, what is your calcium level? Do any of the chems the company used contain calcium? And what is your CYA level, both at closing and now?

Welcome to the group!

[JuJuBee]

Hi
thanks for the quick welcome! I haven't a clue about calcium levels or CYA. We have a test kit from the pool company that has 5 bottles and I don't believe they test for those things. We use it to test for chlorine, ph and total alkalinity. I'll have to look into getting the better kits you recommend on this site. I don't know what my closing levels were as far as CYA because they don't test for that at closing.

I'll check our chems' ingredients for calcium and reply back on that tomorrow.
Thank you!

[PoolDoc]

Hi JuJu;

A few quick notes:

1. Add more plain 6% household bleach BEFORE your pool turns green -- about 2 gallons at a time, added in the evening.
2. LOWER THAT PH LEVEL! Get at least 2 gallons (see below about borax), and lower your pH to below 7.6!
3. Get the K-2006; this page explains details about getting kits: How-to-Get-the-Right-Testkits-for-your-Pool (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?14994)
Report complete results, once you have them.
4. Consider doing borates to 50 ppm (ie, BioGuard Optimizer). You'll need the test strips, about 15 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax, and about 5 gallons of muriatic acid. Borax makes a pool a bit more forgiving, and also, a bit more 'sparkly'.
5. Plan to lower your alkalinity -- you do this by lowering the pH to just under 7.0 and aerating . . . and then adding more acid as the pH rises.
6. One-time-per-week pool care is very much on the low end of things. You don't need to be so precise on everything, but you DO have to maintain an adequate chlorine level ALL the time. "Adequate" is determined by stabilizer level. Read the "Best Guess" page, for more. (Linked in my signature.)

About opening and closing: Opening requires no special equipment, in most cases. If you know what bits go where, you can do it yourself. If not, watch this year, and DIY next year.

[aylad]

2. LOWER THAT PH LEVEL! Get at least 2 gallons (see below about borax), and lower your pH to below 7.6!


Just to clarify, he's wanting you to get 2 gallons of muriatic acid to lower the pH--Borax raises it...

Janet

[PoolDoc]

Yes.

Thanks, Janet.

[JuJuBee]

18 Apr 2012

Thank you Doc and Janet - I'll get to work on all this right away and report back.
It's so nice to have a plan of action!!!

Judith

19 Apr 2012

Janet, we used an HTH 6-way test kit I bought 2 years ago that could check for CYA. I never used the kit...I only needed the phenol red bottle. When my husband transferred the cloudy solution to the CYA view tube, the black dot on the bottom never disappeared even when overflowing. I've already ordered the recommended test kit from Amazon and expect it should arrive today or tomorrow. I'll use that to check the CYA. Can't tell if my BioGuard products contain calcium. They don't list all the other ingredients anywhere on the containers and not even their websites. How can I find out exactly what ingredients are in a BioGuard product? (because I also want to check for Copper....)

Doc, my husband added only one gallon of the muriatic acid instead of two, (cuz he's a pessimist...) and this morning the pool water is still cloudy but it's a bright, clean blue. He should have added both gallons I'm assuming and I might add the second this morning.

We'll add the bleach this evening but I wanted to check with you first, is it o.k. to add regular chlorine bleach if we have the Bioguard Silk Sticks in our in-line chlorinator around the clock? Is there any problem with both types of chlorine in the pool together? (Sticks are trichlor......?)

I am reading about the borates thingy. What's your opinion of using BioGuard Optimizer over borax and acid? I know it's more expensive, but by the time I found somewhere to buy enough of the borax and acid, the price was only a $40 savings but the "steps" involved are more cumbersome initially. Is it just the price or are there some other things in the optimizer that don't belong? Can I continue to maintain borates with borax and acid after initially getting there with BioGuard???

Thanks! no rush, too cold to swim... :)

[PoolDoc]

How can I find out exactly what ingredients are in a BioGuard product? (because I also want to check for Copper....)
Tell me the EXACT product name; Waterbear and I have most of the MSDS sheets.


Doc, my husband added only one gallon of the muriatic acid instead of two, (cuz he's a pessimist...) and this morning the pool water is still cloudy but it's a bright, clean blue. He should have added both gallons I'm assuming and I might add the second this morning.
Since it's mixed, check the pH, first!


We'll add the bleach this evening but I wanted to check with you first, is it o.k. to add regular chlorine bleach if we have the Bioguard Silk Sticks in our in-line chlorinator around the clock? Is there any problem with both types of chlorine in the pool together? (Sticks are trichlor......?)
Yes, it's OK -- but it's good that you asked. Add the bleach directly to the pool -- when the pump is ON, and running. Yes, they are compatible, once they are in the water.


I am reading about the borates thingy. What's your opinion of using BioGuard Optimizer over borax and acid?
Optimizer *IS* just borax; you STILL have to add acid if you use it. (Actually, Optimizer is "5 mol borax" and 20 Mule Team is "10 mol borax". Without getting into the chemistry, the Optimizer is about 30% more concentrated than the 20 Mule Team borax.) BioGuard "Optimizer Plus" is a fairly neutral mix of borax and boric acid -- a good idea, by the way.

But, a 50 ppm borates level with Optimizer+ requires 28# per 10,000 gallons @ $4 / lb. That translates to over $200; way more than the borax + acid. I'm not sure what he's trying to pull, but he's gaming you.

Ask him if he will guarantee 50 ppm of borates -- by Lamotte Borate strips -- with his recommended dose? If he'll guarantee that his Optimzer+ dose will (a) be cheaper than borax plus acid and (b) deliver 50 ppm, it might be fun to go for it . . . but you'll have to fight with him, when your actual borate levels are lower than promised! By the way, the figures I gave you will take you to more like 70 ppm -- but I'm assuming some losses as the season progresses.

[JuJuBee]

19 Apr 2012

Pool Chemicals EXACT product names:


-BioGuard Maintain Easy Shock & Swim - multi-purpose shock
-BioGuard Inhibit Back Up - algae preventative & killer
-BioGuard Maintain Silk Sticks with Silk Guard
-BioGuard Sanitizer Super Soluble (old version)
-BioGuard Maintain Super Soluble Sanitizer
-BioGuard Off the Wall cleaner - thicker formula
-E-Z Chlor pH Up
-Pool Perfect+ Phos Free
-Pool Pride pH increaser
-HTH Clarifier
-Pooltrine 60 Algaecide & Water Clarifier - Applied BioChecmists
-Robarb Pool Specialties Back Wash
-GLB Pool Care Vanquish - deposit control


Correction: Pool company did not offer to help with borates. I don't usually talk to them unless we have a problem. This year I posted on your site first. I just know we can buy BioBuard Optimizer Plus. I saw that 45 lbs was between $120-$124. The 8 lbs. would be another $25. I did buy the borate strips and expect them to arrive tomorrow with the test kit too.

[PoolDoc]

-BioGuard Maintain Easy Shock & Swim - multi-purpose shock => diluted dichlor -- needs to be disposed of in pool, LATER.
-BioGuard Inhibit Back Up - algae preventative & killer => cheap foamy algaecide -- do NOT use!
-BioGuard Maintain Silk Sticks with Silk Guard => trichlor + MYSTERY ingredients, probably copper or borax
-BioGuard Sanitizer Super Soluble (old version) => dichlor
-BioGuard Maintain Super Soluble Sanitizer => dichlor
-BioGuard Off the Wall cleaner - thicker formula => do not use! (or use in your toilet!)
-E-Z Chlor pH Up => sodium carbonate, washing soda
-Pool Perfect+ Phos Free => do not use!
-Pool Pride pH increaser => sodium carbonate, washing soda
-HTH Clarifier => OK to use, but do NOT overdose!!
-Pooltrine 60 Algaecide & Water Clarifier - Applied BioChemists => Polyquat -- good stuff; save for when you go on vacation
-Robarb Pool Specialties Back Wash => do not use, now! For sand filters only.
-GLB Pool Care Vanquish - deposit control => do not use, now! Mystery soup.

[JuJuBee]

Hi PoolDoc,

03May2012

We've been struggling with the new test kit and wacky results; almost out of titrant and the CYA test chems. Long story for another time because i have many questions about all that testing.

For now, today Pete got the first good results and we need to know how to proceed.
Tonight our FC=4.0; CC=2.0.
(which is weird because 6 days ago we had FC=.4 and CC=3.0 and since CYA was 30, we did a shock treatment of 7.5 pounds Bioguard Dichlor to bring the FC to 30ppm and the CC to 0.0 - Four hours later the Taylor kit reported FC as either 2.0 or 3.6 and CC as either 20ppm or 7.6. Wacky results - so the next day we took a sample to The Great Escape and their results showed FC=0.4 & CC=7.4 - their Hardness=699, Alkalinity=ERR HI >250, pH=7.9, CYA=30. But the Taylor kit showed our pH was 7.2 the two times we tested the night before.)

So, I put in a 2 lb. bottle of Bioguard Easy Shock that same day. On Monday our pool wasn't so cloudy anymore, Pete bought 4 gallons Muratic acid and added only one gallon so far. Our test results tonight are:


FC 4.0 ppm
CC 2.0 ppm
pH < 7.0 (took 21 drops to get correct color for base demand)
TA = 210
CH = 250
CYA = 50

Our question is related to your previous instructions. (steps 4 & 5 from your 5:48am reply on 4/18)

You have the Borate adjustment listed before the reduction of Alkalinity. But since we need to get our pH to below 7.0 to lower our Alky, and that's exactly what it is right now, shoud we do step 5 first? And then when we do the borates thingy, the acid used will benefit that second part of your Alky instructions?

Also, we have no idea what you mean by "aerate" in step 5.

We'll wait to hear from you. Btw, the water is clear now and no longer cloudy. Just high Alky and wacky readings.

[PoolDoc]

Hi JuJu;

It sounds like you closed with a definite stabilizer level, and opened with none?

Contrary to what most in the pool industry 'know', stabilizer can be 'eaten' over the winter by bacteria. When this happens, the bacteria 'poop' out either nitrogen gas (no problems!) or ammonia and possibly some other nitrogen compounds (BIG problems).

The second case (ammonia, etc.) shows up in spring time as
1. CYA = 0, or else much reduced from fall level
2. Free chlorine levels rapidly disappear, leaving high combined chlorine levels, when then also disappears.

It appears this is what has happened to you. Unfortunately, the amount of chlorine required to 'burn out' the ammonia is discouragingly high. Unfortunately, there's no short cut -- you just have to keep adding chlorine till the ammonia is gone.

Under the circumstances, I think this is what you should do:
1. Aerate to lower your TA. If you have a bubbler or fountain attachment for your pool return, install it. If not, adjust your return so that the water flow is aimed at the surface, and 'ruffles' the water. The whole process is explained on the lowering alkalinity page (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html). But, you don't have to understand it, to do it. If you aerate (add air) your pool as best you can, and keep your pH low, your TA will drop. If you can't aerate, but keep your pH low, it will STILL drop but it will be slowly.

2. Use up all your dichlor products, starting with the Easy Shock.

3. Stop using the K-2006 for now. Use a K-1000 or a locally purchased OTO kit (this is explained on the test kit page in my signature). Maintain a dark yellow to orangish-yellow chlorine level, first with dichlor, and then with bleach. Add chlorine in the evening. Let levels drop to yellow / dark yellow before re-dosing.

4. If you are nearly out of R-0013 CYA reagent, you can order a pint bottle from Amazon (test kit page, again). If you need other refills, tell us what, and we can tell you how to get them. (But, use the OTO kit, for now.)

5. Be patient. Cleaning up a CYA => ammonia mess takes time.

[JuJuBee]

Hi there!

09 May 2012

Ok, we started aerating yesterday afternoon. We have a small fountain attachment that can connect to one of our return jets. We aimed the other two jets directly at the surface. You can see wavy ripples but it doesn't appear to reach the surface very well. The fountain is splashing air quite well. The filter is on a timer now because my husband is $$weary of it being run 24-7 since the middle of April.

We also did another superchlorination last night because our FC was 1.4 and our CC was 4.4. My calculations (if correct) showed I would need to bring my FC to at least 44ppm to break even?? So I went with 45. I didn't want to add too much dichlor as our CYA was brought to 52 already with that. I knew we could handle going up another 20 or 30 ppm but didn't want to chance having it higher than that. For that reason, in the evening, we added 30 ppm via our Bioguard Dichlor. I added the remaining 15ppm via 3 gallons of liquid bleach. My husband is frustrated because after all that, tonight our readings are pretty much the same or worse:

FC = 2.4
CC = 5.4
pH has now fallen below 7.0 even though we are aerating....
TA = 200 - the same as yesterday
I'm all out of CYA reagent so I can't test that anymore. We also are out of the R871 as of tonight.
I forgot you told us to stop using the K-2006 for now. That could be one of our problems. We'll test again with the OTO kit and get back to you on that reading. I also am keeping in mind to be patient waiting for the alkalinity to drop.

He just tested with two different OTO kits while I am typing. The Pentair 4-way shows TC = 3.0 ppm (a very dark yellow) and the HTH 6-way shows TC = 1.0 or 1.5 (a pale yellow) ????? We'll head out and buy a new kit. I can't stand not knowing the correct reading between three different kits. Is it 7.8, 3.0 or 1.5????

Also, we still have chlorine silk sticks in our inline feeder. Under the method you teach, we wouldn't need to use that anymore, correct? Should it be turned off now? It still has a few left in there and the dial has been set at about 2 1/2 all this time.

I don't know what to do about our CC level. Twice we have followed the instructions for breakpoint chlorination and neither time did it reduce the CC but rather increased it. I understand that if you do less than the breakpoint, it will increase. But either our test kit has been faulty from the start, or their breakpoint instructions of 10 times the CC is faulty. This is actually getting to be expensive. I think that's why he's frustrated. We only have 3 gallons of the liquid bleach left and Pete is putting that in right now. If we had more, we'd add it. He's getting another 7 gallons after his softball game tonight and will put it in when he gets home. I know you said dichlor first, then bleach, but I am holding off on adding anymore dichlor until hearing from you. I want to make sure it's not going to end up pushing our CYA into the toxic range of >= 100ppm with the excessive amounts we've added up until now.

On the bright side, (because there always is one if you're willing to notice it...), :) our water is probably more crystal clear than any water in the history of the world. (Once we got all the worms from the rain out....) It's quite pretty. Our kids are dying to swim in it because they don't believe it's not safe to, it sure looks safe to them and very inviting! heh heh. I'm comfortable with this method we're learning and I'm confident it will be the better way to take care of our pool from this year forward. I'm just still trying to "sell" the ideas to my husband because he's not as patient and the disagreeing test kits are making him skeptical. We've always been able to swim by now just using the chemicals we always have and the pool was pretty then too. I have to keep reminding him that "convenience" had a high cost to it AND had we had the proper breakpoint chlorination done upon opening our pool this year, which it obviously wasn't, it might not have taken this long.

He has one good question though: you said above,

The second case (ammonia, etc.) shows up in spring time as
1. CYA = 0, or else much reduced from fall level
2. Free chlorine levels rapidly disappear, leaving high combined chlorine levels, when then also disappears.

It appears this is what has happened to you. Unfortunately, the amount of chlorine required to 'burn out' the ammonia is discouragingly high. Unfortunately, there's no short cut -- you just have to keep adding chlorine till the ammonia is gone.


well, if our CYA was 30 for at least 2 weeks and just over 50 for a week now....why is our chlorine still disappearing so fast? I will, of course, re-read him the second part of your quote above and remind him there is no short cut. :)

Looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you so much!

[Watermom]

3 gallons of bleach would add 10ppm of chlorine, not 15ppm. How much dichlor did you add? What amount of chlorine does the package say that dose of dichlor will add to an 18K pool? By the way, if your CYA reading is already over 50, you don't want to use any more dichlor. Stick with bleach. Don't use your chlorinator right now. Besides the sticks are probably stabilized -- meaning they add more CYA. You don't need more.

It is a royal pain in the you-know-what to clean up a pool full of ammonia from CYA degradation. We see this every year. People who pour gallon upon gallon of bleach in their pools and they think the chlorine level never will hold! They get so frustrated!!! And, then one day, it holds! Hang in there!

[JuJuBee]

9 May 2012

Last week, we added 7.5 lbs. dichlor. I added 7.5 lbs. dichlor again last night. Glad I didn't use more tonight. I don't know what my CYA is after last night, I'm sure it's got to be close to 70 by now....

I'm calculating the amount of chlorine needed using "TABLE B" on page 54 of the Taylor Test Kit guide that came in the K2006 kit. It shows how much of a product to add to achieve 30ppm. My Dichlor is 55-56% available chlorine. I use the 60% row and subtract 2,000 gallon amounts from the 20,000 gallons amounts. Since my dichlor is 91% of "60%", I take 91% of that amount. It came out to 7.5 pounds of dichlor to add 30 ppm.

The 10% available row (liquid bleach) shows 6 gallons to add 30 ppm for a 20,000 gallon pool. It would be 5.5 gallons for an 18,500 gallon pool. So then 15ppm should be about half of that, or 2.75 gallons bleach.

Anyway, that's how I figured it out. Please let me know if I've done it wrong. Thank you soooooo much. I hope to find a way to share things I'm good at with you guys someday. You deserve to be on the receiving end once in a while!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I think I found my mistake. I was assuming liquid chlorine from the store, whether clorox or off-brand, was 10%. I haven't checked the bottle, but from other posts I read, it's probably only 6%???? Is that the mistake I made in calculations?

[Watermom]

Could be. Some bleach is 5.25%, some is 3%, but most that is sold now is 6%. And, if it is not fresh, it may not even actually be the strength it is supposed to be.

[JuJuBee]

10 May 2012

Ok. It was 6% so i was under breakpoint chlorination. Q1: (does that even work anyway? Brkpt chlor.?)

Also, we bought a new oto (HTH 6-way @ Walmart) and even tho we added 10 gallons of Chlorine last night, our chlorine levels today barely yielded a med yellow color 1.5-2.0.

We also checked our CYA with it. It was 88 ppm. Lordy! I know too low CYA creates the ammonia prob that eats away our chlorine. Q2: Can high CYA levels cause wasted chlorine in any way?

Our pH was at 6.8 so aerating isn't creating pH increase yet. Q3: Why is that? Its a smaller pool at 18,500 gal.

Pete just added 15 gallons liquid chlorine tonight to provide 50 ppm. (I'm going to watch out the window when the garbage men come for their reaction to the massive amounts of empty bleach bottles.) If that doesn't get rid of CC, nothing will.

One other question for anyone who can answer: Q4: Where in the Chicago west suburbs can we find someone that sells 12.5% Chlorine? It's more difficult than winning the lottery. We found ONE store, just one - American Sale, that sells a 12.5 % liquid shock by the gallon for $2.50. No one else carries it anymore. It's like there's a conspiracy to make it difficult to get. Even most pool store's sites show "not found" when searching for it or "We're sorry, This item is no longer in stock or carried" or something to that effect. I bet they make far more money on the other stuff they sell because you always need more and more of it! And then those who do carry it can charge "hard to get" prices. We'd like to be able to buy in some kind of bulk so we don't have so many bottles to carry like with the 6% product.

------------------------------------------------------------

One last question tonight: Q5: why would our OTO test kit not show a change of color just 45 min - 1 hour after dumping 15 gallons of chlorine in? And last night we had added 10. Our test kit showed the same 2.0-ish yellow. I never get anywhere near the dark-yellow, orangish-yellow color PoolDoc wants me to maintain. After

7.5 lbs dichlor, [ 26 ppm FC; 20 ppm CYA ]
6.0 lbs easy shock, [ DILUTED dichlor: 11 ppm FC; 10 ppm CYA ]
7.5 lbs dichlor[ 26 ppm FC; 20 ppm CYA ]
3 gal 6% bleach [ 10 ppm FC ]
10 gal x% bleach [ 32 ppm FC ]
15 gal x% bleach [ 48 ppm FC ]

[ over 100 ppm FC ]

I should be seeing orange?? Shouldn't I? Especially right after adding it? And all the while CYA is over 30, then 52, then 88. pH is below 7 due to high alk and aerating. We add chlorine in evening.
??

[PoolDoc]

Hi Judy;

I did a bunch of editing on both yours and my posts, because they'd gotten hard to read, and because there was a lot of stuff that wasn't immediately relevant to your current situation.

Let me start by saying as plainly as I can: I don't know -- not for sure -- what's going on with your pool. I think I can guess, but I am not completely certain.

Next, I need to ask you to hand your husband that stupid Taylor book and ask him to hide it somewhere, where you can't find it. You're asking a bunch of questions, because you've read that book carefully. Unfortunately, that book is based on old-school pool company chemistry, and a lot of it is wrong, and some of what's not wrong, is irrelevant. In particular, the whole breakpoint chemistry concepts in there are so mis-applied that they are confusing your current situation no end. AFTER your pool is 'all-better' you can get with Chem_Geek in the China Shop, work out the fine points of chlorine-ammonia oxidation, and then reconcile what's going on with your pool, with the stuff in that dumb book. (When I sold the K-2006 directly, I threw out the book and the calculator, before I shipped the kits, to avoid this exact problem!)

-------------------- In progress -- not finished yet --------------------

[JuJuBee]

Too funny, I'm such a geeky school girl. Consider it done - book is out of my site. :)

[JuJuBee]

Hi, wanted to post update:

***!!!Alkalinity reading dropped to 130 ppm today!!! It's been over 200-250 for 4 straight years. It could have dropped anytime between the 10th and today since we tested 200 on the 9th. YAY! The aeration worked as you wrote it! YAY!!!***

pH rose to 7.2 also on it's own. As per instructions, we are still aerating until our pH is at or above 7.6 again. I'm not in a rush to add Borax until you say so. I read another current post where you said higher pH helps clear up the CC / Amonia problem quicker. But i still want to wait until im told its time for us to add it. No two pools are exactly the same so I'm sure no two "plan of attacks" are either.

Therefore.....Still battling CC and the mysterious loss of all newly added Chlorine.
1:00 pm - Vacuumed and backwashed filter today to lower rain-induced water level by 2".
5:00 pm - Added 2 gallons 12.5% liquid shock
7:00 pm - HTHs OTO TC=2.0-ish yellow
7:25 pm - added 2 more gallons 12.5% shock
9:00 pm - HTHs OTO TC= ?? 3.0 for sure. Couldn't discern if it was as dark as 5.0. Didn't look yellow-"orangy" - just darker yellow.
Did a second OTO (Pentair) TC=3.0 yellow. Not sure if it was much darker than that. Hmmm. 50 ppm chlorine added since 7pm. Why no orangy-yellow?
Did a quick FC chk with K2006. FC>=7.0 CC =? (>3-4+++)
Got 7.0 minimum - could have been a tad higher if 1-2 more drops added to seal perminent clear end result. But it wouldn't have taken us much beyond 8 i dont think.
Didn't have enough titrant to measure CC but we know we added 12 drops before running out and still had dark Pink. So we at least have 3-4 ppm but probably much higher.

We'll test water in morning to see if chlorine drops below 2.0-3.0 overnight or not.
One last reminder, our pool is sparkling clean and we haven't noticed any odd smells or colors/dirt. We now just need a way to accurately measure our chlorine and know when it's safe to swim and when to add a dose.

Happy Mother's Day to any Mom's browsing through this post! :)

[aylad]

Just curious--when you're using your K-2006 to measure chlorine, are you using the 10 mL or 25 mL sample? If you'll use the 10 mL, your reagent will go a lot further, because each drop represents 0.5 ppm of CC...

[JuJuBee]

Hi aylad,
Thank you, and yes, I figured it out just before I ran out of titrant. I initially thought that the 10 ml sample was a second resort, but not the preferred method. Is there ever a time when 10 ml is an unreliable sample size? My last sample was 25ml because I forgot and then it was too late.

As for my OTO readings...they are uncertain. Since opening the pool this year, whether I use OTO or FAS-DPD, my samples are always slowly changing color and never "permanent." For instance, here is the results of my morning testing:
Water temp = 64 degrees

HTH OTO Kit - (5 ppm is the highest reading)
Added 5 drops to sample - Counted to 30 ("1/1000, 2/1000, etc." method)
TC=1.0 color
@ count of 60 TC=1.0 color .....but.....
@ count of 90 TC=2.0 color
after 2-3 minutes TC=5.0 color
After 5 minutes, TC was higher than 5.0 and a deep gold color

PENTAIR 4-way OTO kit - (3 ppm is the highest)
Added 5 drops to sample - Counted to 20 using 1/1000 method
@ count of 20 TC=1.0 color
@ count of 40 TC=1.5 color
@ count of 60 TC=2.0 color
@ 2 minutes TC=3.0 color
@ 3-4 mins TC=darker than 3.0 color and deep golden

I'm pretty good with discerning color. I don't know at what point the color should be "recorded" and considered correct. I read somewhere when samples sit too long they can have a reaction to the oxygen in the air and so they will get darker naturally because of that, so logic says "within a few seconds after swirling" should be correct. Yet the OTO kit says FC can be measured by watching for results a few seconds after dropping and swirling reagent, but if you wait a few minutes, the color will give the TC reading. ??? Then I read in a post on this forum waterbear commented that this information was wrong and OTO tests TC only. Period. I've read enough on this forum already to trust more in waterbear's opinion (as well as all the moderators.) But there was still is no indication anywhere as to when that TC is properly reflected in the color, especially if it's gradually changing at a slow but consistent pace for an entire 5 minutes.

My FAS-DPD never achieves permanent "clear" regardless of the amount of titrant drops added which is why I ran out so fast. After a reasonable amount of drops that I was expecting, a sudden change from the pink to a very light pale/blush pink occurs and I think, "cool, we're almost there..." After that, additional drops turn it clear immediately and then almost as fast the water begins to turn back to the blush pink. I kept going until it was permanent as some of the other posts had instructed. However, each subsequent drop, the clear would hold a few seconds longer than the previous and then start to change to blush pink again. This went on forever. The "permanence" was the blush color - not an absence of color. I never knew at what point the "change" to clear could reliably be considered permanent. So every time, when I was about to add the reagent for the CC part of the test, my sample was already turning blush pink before the first drop or gradually darkening from a blush pink. Then the first titrant drop would turn the sample to a raging hot pink, way darker than the DPD powder did in the FC part of the test. By the fifth drop, it was obviously going to take almost a quarter bottle of the titrant before any change in the color would start to happen. The times I forged ahead, I would get the faint/lighter pink finally, but again - never could get to a "clear" absense of color permanently. It was frustrating not knowing if the 10, 15, or 30 seconds it held the clear (or was absent of color) was reliable because as I was writing down the results, I'd glance over and there would be a definite pink returning.

Learning to correctly use the K2006 can wait. Maybe I should just create a new thread for needing help with these kits and move the previous paragraph to that. I'd rather wait for one of the moderators to let me know if I should do that before cluttering up another thread with my wordiness.

For right now, with following instructions from Ben up to this point, I believe my greatest and most pertinent need is to know exactly when to capture that OTO reading so that I can get my CC under control and get my kids swimming. That is, if there is any CC to control. Which I'm still convinced there is, but I'm just a beginner. I have no idea if I'm losing chlorine over night or not and if so, if it is significant. I also don't know if I have a higher CC than an FC still.

I need help with proper OTO reading under these circumstances. Do I add chlorine only when the color is below the 3.0 ppm color and not look for orange-ish anymore? How will I know when it is safe for my kids to swim? We've got 80 degrees expected in a few days and their whines are escalating just as fast.

Why wouldn't I ever see orange or brown with the high amounts of chlorine I've added? Is it possible that 50 ppm could be eaten up in under an hour even if my CYA is so high, my pH is 7.2 and my Alkalinity is 140 AND it's in the evening with no sun? If it is possible, what would cause that? Keep in mind ...... I do not have ANY odors, or any discoloration. The water is beautiful and sparkly.

I'll post our readings from this evening as best I can. We weren't planning on adding bleach first again tonight unless it was necessary.

[JuJuBee]

Did not add bleach tonight.
Test results were similar to last night and this morning using the OTO test.

9:00 pm - using HTH OTO 6-way kit
pH = 7.2
TC = ? 2.0 or 3.0.....after swirling within the first 30-60 seconds....?? probably higher..... after a couple minutes it was the color of 5.0 ppm
CYA = 90
TA = (120) 96.6 ... w/ cyanuric acid correction
CH = 330

Nice numbers! The success on following your "lowering alkalinity" process has made me a permanent believer in this site and it's applications and theories. I've definitely gotten way more value than the price of subscribing to this forum!! :)

Now we need to know exactly where our CC and FC is at so that we can get those levels in the correct place. I thought we should have added borax tonight since we are continuing to aerate but the pH has not increased on it's own. But I am waiting to hear back regarding all my posts and test results before I feel comfortable taking anymore action with adding chemicals, (or thinking I know enough to go it alone....I DON'T!)

I'll also try to remember to post a picture of our pool tomorrow so you can see how pretty the water looks.
Thanks, please let us know our next step.
Judy

[JuJuBee]

Anyone?? Should we add borax now? Start the Borates thingy???

Water temp = 72 degrees
Chlorine is 1.5 ppm as of 1:00 pm today. I let the kids swim after school - I thought it was safe....??
pH is still 7.2
Still aerating....

We'll put a large dose of chlorine in this evening again.

In one of the firsts posts above, our goal was to possibly do the Borates to 50ppm and lower alkalinity. We've done the alkalinity. But I'm waiting to see what should be done next based on where we stand this week.

Thanks!

[PoolDoc]

Hi JuJu;

If you are seeing a significant difference between your initial OTO color, and your 5 minute color . . . you are still cleaning up ammonia and goo.

Adjust the pH to near 7.8 (didn't I say that before?) and hold it there. Continue to dose 5 - 10 ppm chlorine each evening; skip if your 5 minute OTO is dark yellow. Once you've held your pH at 7.8 for 48 hours, you can swim. (You can swim, now, but it may be REALLY irritating to the eyes. Even at the high pH, it will be irritating to some people, so the first time everyone swims, limit them to 15 minutes. That way, you can see if anyone in your family is sensitive to combined chlorine.)

Otherwise, just hold the course, till you've gotten rid of all the goo, that's turning into combined chlorine.

[Watermom]

Judy,
Please don't be offended by this; it is only meant to help.

Having said that, the reason you may not be getting as many replies as quickly as you like is that your posts are SO long and time-consuming to read. On the Pool Forum, especially this time of year where we are swamped with posts, we don't have time to read multiple lengthy posts and then have to scroll back through multiple lengthy posts to find out what all has already been said in previous posts. Although we need adequate information to be able to help, brevity and getting right to the point make it much easier for us to help. With the number of new posts per day that are coming in right now (and it is high!!) we don't have the time to spend 20 to 30 minutes or whatever on each thread before we have to move on. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to help as many people.

I hope you understand and realize that I am not trying to criticize or anything like that, but simply trying to help. :)

[JuJuBee]

Hi,

Thanks so much for getting right back to me. You must have me mixed up with a different thread? Your instructions so far have been about lowering our pH and keeping it there until the alkalinity came down. (You guys are really busy right now and working so hard, so I understand.)


Hi JuJu; A few quick notes: ...
2. LOWER THAT PH LEVEL! Get at least 2 gallons (see below about borax), and lower your pH to below 7.6! ... Report complete results, once you have them.
4. Consider doing borates to 50 ppm (ie, BioGuard Optimizer). You'll need the test strips, about 15 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax, and about 5 gallons of muriatic acid. Borax makes a pool a bit more forgiving, and also, a bit more 'sparkly' ...

Hi JuJu; ... Under the circumstances, I think this is what you should do:
1. Aerate to lower your TA ... The whole process is explained on the lowering alkalinity page (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html). But, you don't have to understand it, to do it. If you aerate (add air) your pool as best you can, and keep your pH low, your TA will drop. If you can't aerate, but keep your pH low, it will STILL drop but it will be slowly ...
5. Be patient. Cleaning up a CYA => ammonia mess takes time.

You and Janet have helped lower my high pH and Alkalinity as well as discovered my ammonia mess. Everything you tell me to do is working. I was just waiting to hear back on when and how to start increasing my pH and if it's time to merge that into the borates step. (and how to know I'm "really" at shock levels with my chlorine additions and not making things take longer than it has to.)

How much borax do I add??

[JuJuBee]

Watermom:
:o I TOTALLY understand! :o Thanks for your kind way of sharing that.

I figured this out for myself yesterday after reading and observing the activity on other posts - but there is no way for me to go back into my own posts and edit them. :( I wanted to!!! I'd like to shorten them so what is most necessary can quickly be seen by others reading this thread and needing the same help! (I'm kind of hurting them too...:rolleyes:) Is there a way I can be allowed to do that?

I just worked very hard to keep my reply to PoolDoc shorter. :o

[Watermom]

Don't worry about going back. Just for future ones. Thanks for understanding.

[JuJuBee]

Pool Doc and Watermom:

I need some help getting my water ready to swim for company this weekend, Memorial Day. As my initial problems within this thread have been resolved (too high of pH and Alkalinity) using it to solve new problems is making it too lengthy.

Which thread should I post my current needs in ..."Testing and Adjusting Pool Water Chemistry" or "Pool Chemicals & Pool Water Problems"? My water, while still looking "perfect", is difficult to test and I can't get rid of that 1-2 ppm CC.

I'll wait for your advice on where to post.

(Also, do you ever provide phone support? If even at a fee? Lots of questions can be answered in a short amount of time when not relying on interpretation or back and forth through postings. My private messaging is turned off so I have no other way to pose this question...sorry.)

[Watermom]

Put it in the "testing" section of the forum. Sorry but we can't do phone support especially with how busy we are right now (EVERYONE is trying to get pools ready for the Memorial Day weekend!) but we will try and help you as much as possible this week on the forum!

[JuJuBee]

Thanks Watermom!