Cloudy Water

[joserq]

Hi... New member looking for help. I check the other threads and, while my question may already be there, I couldn't find it. If it does exist, feel free to direct me to it.

I have an IG concrete pool of approximately 15k gallons. Over the winter it had a bad case of green algae which I'm pretty sure I've take care of following the instructions found on the web site. However, the water is still cloudy. The shallow end has a three-step concrete entrance and I can barely make out the 3rd step. Anything in the deep end of the pool is not visible. Below are the current measurements using the Taylor kit recommended by this site.

ph=7.0, FC=4.5 ppm, CYA=39 ppm, TA=70 ppm, CH=180 ppm, Water Temp= 75 degrees F.

I read on the site that cloudy water could be caused by a high concentration of dead algae in the water which may be difficult to filter out with a cartridge system (which is what I have).

My questions are: Could this be the reason for the cloudy water and if so, is there anything that can be done about it? Or, does someone see something off with any of my chemical measurements that may be contributing to it?

If I can confirm that the cloudiness is due to the dead algae, I plan to increase the ph back to the 7.6 to 7.8 range. Thanks for your help and sorry if the post is too long.

[PoolDoc]

There's nothing in your test readings to make me suspect it's something other than dead algae.

On the other hand, I don't know what you used to treat the pool. Phosphate removers (which are gradually going off the market, thank goodness!) can cloud your pool terribly. Over use of various clarifiers and algaecides can make otherwise filterable debris, unfilterable. And, of course, damaged cartridges can leak stuff through.

Do this:

1. List all the chemicals used during start up.
2. Buy a small amount of DE powder (a large amount maybe cheaper, and it doesn't spoil), add a couple of cupfuls to a running skimmer, and then go see if a cloud of DE shoots back into the pool. If so, your filter and/or cartridge needs help.
3. List your pump model / size and your filter model & size. If you have the all-too-common combo of a BIG pump and a small filter, algae can be driven through the cartridge.

Three questions:
1. Which instructions on this site did you follow?
2. What kind of Taylor kit told you that you have 39 ppm of CYA?
3. Why would you raise the pH if the problem IS dead algae?

[joserq]

Hi Ben... Thanks for your quick reply and help. Below are the answers to your questions:

1. Following pool-store instructions I added one 2.5 gallon jug of liquid CL (pool-store bought) and I bottle of algaecide bought at Walmart (sorry, I don't recall the name or size. If needed I can go back to Walmart and write them down). After running the pump for a couple of days and having no change, I repeated the above treatment.

2. Sorry, don't understand what DE powder means. Can you clarify?

3. The pool was already installed a number of years before I bought the house. I couldn't find the model on the pump but it does have the metal tag with the specifications. There I was able to read that it's a 3/4 horse power pump running at 220 volts. If this is insufficient, let me know and I will try again. The cartridge filter is a Hayward C-1100.

Your other questions:

1. I was referring to the table that says what level to hold CL based on your CYA reading. I shocked at 20+ ppm for several days adding pool-store bought liquid CL (its actually cheaper than store bought bleach where I live), adding it in the evenings while running the pump and frequently cleaning the cartridge filter. Your guidance worked perfectly and I cannot see any algae anywhere in my pool.

2. Taylor K-2006. The CYA reading was my guestimate. The liquid level on the back of the tool was closer to the 40 ppm scale line than the 30 ppm line.

3. I read on the site how many pools have a natural PH level and I believe that mine may run at the higher side. I also read the discussion and rationale on running with a higher PH overall. If I misinterpreted what I read please let me know.

A couple of other items that might help and that I left out before:

1. I live in very sunny South Florida and the pool is in the sun all day. Only other thing is that it has an enclosure around it (with a fine mesh) but this is mostly to keep out the bugs.

2. I have an automatic pool cleaner (Baracuda) so when I run the pump it is drawing from the bottom of the pool and not the surface thru the skimmer.

Thanks again for your help and patience.

[TheGoose]

I'm fighting the same thing. Pool chemistry looks OK (except CYA which I added) but water is still cloudy. I'm hoping it's just a filtration issue...but I battled cloudy water last year too. Keep your thread updated, I'd like to know how it turns out.

[aylad]

2. Sorry, don't understand what DE powder means. Can you clarify?

.

DE powder is actually the filter media used in a DE filter. You should be able to get it at any pool store. Might be able to get it at Home Depot, Lowe's, and other places that sell pool supplies, but I'm not sure.

Janet

[PoolDoc]

Regarding your pump, please take a few pictures and send them to poolforum@gmail.com -- one of us can probably ID it that way.

This is DE filter powder -- it's $30 for 25# delivered from Amazon. But it may be cheaper locally.

Diatomaceous Earth Pool Filter D.E. 25 LBS. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002WKK6WI/poolbooks)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419Srg%2BsaIL.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002WKK6WI/poolbooks)

DE is used as the filter media on a DE filter, where the support for the DE powder is sailcloth membranes on plastic grids. But, in a sand filter, DE can do TWO things:

1. You can use it to test if a filter is leaking: if you add DE, and it shoots back into the pool . . . your filter needs sand, or repairs, or both.

2. You can use it as temporary polishing agent, to catch things the filter would otherwise miss. But, in this application, it may stop the filter up very quickly. A better choice for that purpose would be polyaluminum chloride, set up on a slow drip into the skimmer. You can do this with an old plastic cleaned plastic bottle, 2 boards, some duct tape and a bottle of PAC. Cut a hole in the bottle, and then cover it with duct take. Take a sharp pencil and pierce the duct take with a small hole. Remove the skimmer lid, put the board across the skimmer, and place the bottle so it sits on both boards, straddling a gap between them. Put a couple of cups of PAC in to the bottle, and let it drip into the skimmer as the pump runs.

This is identical to very old school sand filter operation, with an alum (aluminum sulfate) feed, but with a better material. PAC is available from Amazon, in this product:
Blue Wave Super Floc 4 x 1 qt. (http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Wave-Super-Floc-qt/dp/B004YA7CXA/)

Unfortunately, you have to buy a whole gallon, which is several years worth. I'm sure it's available under other brands and labels, but this is the ONLY product I've been able to ID that is pure PAC. If you purchase it, do NOT operate on the "if some is good, more is better" basis -- you'll make a BIG mess. In fact, if you want to use, ask me first.

[joserq]

Thanks Ben and Aylad for your responses. Just want to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly. My filter is a cartridge type. Do I still run the DE test and if necessary do the setup for polishing with PAC? Don't want to do something that will make matters worse. If you confirm that this applies to cartridge filters also, I will proceed with your instructions and let you know how it turns out. Thanks again for the help.

[PoolDoc]

You are NOT ready to use the PAC, yet. (If you'd like to try it ANOTHER way, and don't mind possibly not getting much value out of $30, go ahead and order. I can help you do a "jar test" -- you'll need a large glass jar, like a big pickle jar. But we can test, and see if it will 'floc' your pool gunk. If it will, you can go ahead and use it, and then vacuum up the floc, to waste. But you'll have to have a hand vacuum, the valves allowing you to vacuum to waste (on the ground) and the time to do it.)

You CAN use the DE, both to test your filter, and to filter gunk. It actually works better on cartridge filter, than on a sand filter, for that purpose.

Is this the filter you have?
http://www.mypool.com/images/Products/starclearII.jpg

If so, check out this manual to confirm it:
http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/Manual135.pdf

Once you've confirmed, you probably should get THIS cartridge:
Unicel C-8610 Replacement Filter Cartridge for 100 Square Foot Hayward CX1100RE @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000BNPRFE/poolbooks)

You can get it elsewhere, but make sure you are getting a Unicel, Filbur or Hayward OEM and NOT a Pleatco cartridge. I had to troll through Amazon's list very careful to make sure -- Pleatco markets their filters on an as-if identical basis, when they are not, and some of the descriptions are VERY misleading.

Also, go through the pumps, here, and see if you can find yours:
http://www.hayward-pool.com/ctg/In-Ground-Pool-Pumps_10201_10551_-1_14002_I.htm

But, we need to ID your pump, we need pictures of your pump and filter -- so I can see your valving -- and we need to make sure your pump and filter are working properly together, before moving to next steps. By the way, do you have a pressure gage on your filter? If not, you need one that works, and we need to know what your pressure is before and after cleaning the cartridge.

Here's a gauge, like you need, if you don't have one:
Super Pro Pool Filter 0-60 Pressure Gauge 1/4" Fitting @ Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN//poolbooks)

You probably can get these locally, and you'll need some Teflon tape for the threads, but a dab of silicone caulk will also work.

[joserq]

Got it. Will gather the information and photos requested and will post again. Thanks.

[joserq]

Will email pictures after I upload them from camera but wanted to give you information I found upon closer inspection (and finding out that I was not answering correctly).

1. The cartiridge filter is a Hayward C-1100. It is not on the manual that you provided the link for because it is a Star Clear filter and the manual only listed Star Clear Plus filters. I did a search on the internet and at Hayward's site and couldn't find a manual for Star Clear. Could it be that it is a discontinued model?
2. The pump is a Sta-Rite pump coupled to an AO Smith electric motor (part I wasn't answering correctly). Same issue as with filter. Internet Search and the OEMs web sites do not have these models listed any more (AO Smith has a # of 3/4 horse power motors but none that has the same exact specs as the one that I have).
3. To answer your question, yes the filter does have a relatively new pressure gauge (I used teflon tape when installing) and I will clean filter and give you before and after readings.

Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

Sorry, didn't actually look at the manual, after I grabbed it from Hayward's site -- they have the SAME manual for both the Star Clear and Star Clear Plus lines, even though they are different filters. The parts diagrams are different, however.

Pictures are our only way to help, here.

[joserq]

Here are the cartridge filter readings before cleaning (12 psi) and after cleaning (about 4.5 psi) the cartridge. Also, the PVC piping to and from the pump and filter is 1.5 inches. Tks.

[PoolDoc]

If you are dropping 8# pressure, from cleaning, then you are gathering quite a bit of stuff on your filter. Will it clear the pool? Dunno.

If your dirty filter pressure is only 12 psi, your pump is not badly over sized for your filter. I'd still recommend a new cartridge - it may not work better than the old one, but if not, you still end up with a spare, so while one's cleaning the other can be filtering. And, if it DOES filter the fine cloudy stuff better . . . well, there you go!

[joserq]

Sent the requested pictures to the email provided. Thanks for the help and support.

[PoolDoc]

I'll try to get them up, today.

[joserq]

Hi... Just wondering if I should go ahead with the PACS test or if you need anything else from me. Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

My apologies for letting things slip on this thread. Here are your pics:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rovU-wZxSmc/T6Bg0-kvTDI/AAAAAAAACoQ/KrVBu_Jjgao/s640/web%2520IMG_5649.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-S0c0oE79UW8/T6Bg0fHiuiI/AAAAAAAACn4/HyD5a1AMMR0/s640/web%2520IMG_5648.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1vf4PrKOvR0/T6Bg0y_iGzI/AAAAAAAACoU/JKDoRuhNTjU/s640/web%2520IMG_5651.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EHC09PAFnIY/T6Bg0Tx57pI/AAAAAAAACn8/875BxT9enIk/s640/web%2520IMG_5647.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oH4scztmASg/T6Bg1GRDMgI/AAAAAAAACoY/K86ODgTGS6Q/s640/web%2520detail%2520IMG_5647.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kX41fZASeZU/T6Bg0WhBrDI/AAAAAAAACoA/Cdo9AJzwvGs/s640/web%2520IMG_5646.jpg

[joserq]

No worries. Just wanted to know what my next step should be. Thanks.

[joserq]

Any ideas on what my next step should be? Do the PAC test? Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

+ What does your pool water look like, currently?
+ What are your test results?
+ How did you test?
+ Are you continuing to see your filter load up with debris from the water? How quickly are you getting a 5 -10 psi rise?