Vinyl liner - poor install, need advice

[Cboulier]

Hi All - had our vinyl liner replaced around 18 months ago in our 18x36 in ground pool in Phoenix, AZ. We used one of the only pool companies in Phoenix that does vinyl liner work. We had some minor initial problems with how everything went about with the install but at the end of the day everything seemed ok and the pool "looked" good.

Fast forward about a year later and we noticed we were losing lots of water the end of last summer (2011). We hired a leak detection thinking it was pipes leaking since the liner was barely a year old. The leak detection company tested everything on two occasions and could not find anything (pipes, pumps, skimmer, seams, everything was checked). Eventually they found some very small pin holes in the liner, 3 to be exact - the reason was there were small rocks underneath the liner. They had not been cleaned out from the install and eventually just poked through enough to cause a very minor hole (in 3 different places).

We attempted to contact the company that installed the liner twice and they flat out refused to do anything. All we wanted was them to patch the holes and to check to make sure there are not more rocks and remediate the situation for future issues. They actually said the rocks could not have been there when the liner was installed, they must have gotten there after (yes, this is really what they said).

Long story short, I did some diving and used a patch kit and patched the holes and everything was ok. 6 months later all of a sudden we are losing water again. The patches look ok from the surface but I need to check them again. This leads me to my questions:

1 - Would it be a better idea to redo the patches and actually carefully cut out the small rocks so I get a better patch flush against the bottom?

2 - what action can I take against the pool company besides filing a BBB complaint? Are there any pool industry organizations that will check on a companies work or can I file a complaint to the city/state on who provides their license (keep in mind this is Arizona)

Thanks for any advice. I have been a lurker for awhile here and learned lots just by searching and reading many posts.

[waste]

Welcome to the Forum!

How's the water situation in Phoenix? I ask because the best course of action would be to drain the pool, pull back the liner so you can get under it to remove ALL the rocks and patch the liner from the underside where it is leaking. Then reset and refill the pool.

I strongly suspect that this isn't a viable option for you.

I'm thinking that there are probably more stones under the liner and they will keep poking through. Instead of cutting the liner to remove the stones, I'd just keep patching them (even double patching) and don't let anyone or anything mess with or abrade those areas (I hope you don't have an auto-vac!) [there is info here (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13118-Patching-a-leak-in-a-vinyl-liner) on patching liners]

Please keep me informed as to how your pool is doing - I'll help as much as I can from Maine :)

[Watermom]

I had to do this very thing in the last liner I had. A year after the liner was installed, we noticed a couple of stones under it. We patched it with a piece of an old liner. It held just fine for another 5 years. Actually, those areas were still just fine, but we replaced the pool just a few weeks ago. The liner was actually still in good shape and those patches would have probably been fine for quite a few more years, but my pool walls were deteriorating.

It would be a big expense to drain the pool and refill. Filling a pool is costly. Especially since my sewer bill is based on my water bill so even though no water goes down the drain, when I filled the new pool recently, it impacted my water bill and sewer bill. I haven't gotten the two bills yet since the new pool was only installed about 3 weeks ago, but I'm guessing that between the two of them, I'll cost me about $500.

If I were you, I think I'd just keep patching as Ted suggested.

[Cboulier]

Thanks Ted - Ironically enough I am from Maine ( grew up in Winterport and Bangor area till I moved to AZ 7 years ago) too.

Water is not too bad but it's not free and I don't like to waste if I don't have too. I was under the impression I should never full drain the pool because of complications and problems I might run into ( getting it back in the track, sagging, etc). Maybe it's not a big a deal. Water is still kind of cold here so borrowing a wet suit and doing some diving this weekend.

Monitoring the leak this one seems worse then the 3 small holes found last summer. I lost about 4 inches in a 24 hour period and this is for 18 x 36 pool so it's pretty significant. I don't think it's in the piping or around pump filter because it seem to leak the same amount weather it is running or not.

Of course yes,I have an auto-vac! Lol....no main drain, only suction side cleaner, runs about 3 hours in the winter and up to 8 in the hot summer months. I know that is not helping the cause and def prob helping those little rocks stick through, as long I can keep them patched and maybe per-patch other rocks sticking up maybe I will be ok. Just frustrating with a new liner and the company who put it in not willing to help.

Is there a better way to try to find these me leaks? Homemade dye solutions? Last time I had to have my face right against the liner and still could barely see the hole. I used food coloring and that didn't even alert me that much.

Thanks!

[aylad]

One of the other mods, Poconos, has recommended beet juice for detecting leaks...

Janet