Fun with a Mesquite tree

[BadDog]

This is my first post, so I'll include a full background leading up to my current quandary. Perhaps the added background my suggest options I have not considered...

Just over a year ago I bought a house out of Foreclosure. It's an old 1.13 acre "horse property" with, as they say "good bones", but a definite fixer-upper. Anyway, it has an old school pool built in the 70s, still in decent shape. It also has a pretty typical sand filter with 1hp pump. We replaced a worn slam out Kreepy Krawly with a Hayward, and most of the time everything seems to work very well. However, there is a very old, very gnarly, very cool Mesquite tree about 40' from the pool. And just my luck, it's right up wind of the pool most of the time, and we get some pretty good winds. And my wife loves the funky gnarly tree (honestly, I like it too), so the obvious solution is not on the option list. Our first spring here I had an awful time with that filter, and eventually realized I had to go into it about every 2 weeks (or less) and scoop the mesquite leaves off the top of the sand. They would collect in there and harden into clumps and the pressure would go through the roof, of course along with drop in flow. Back flush will not get those leaves out.

It has an old style skimmer in the concrete. It uses the fake bottom with hidden basket (things started working much better once I found THAT!) with no vac port and the weir (and mounts apparently) is long gone. So I've put in a Pentair Pool Mate. Most of the mess tends to sink and get picked up by the vacuum, so I also added a large/long Hayward in-line mesh leaf canister. This made the filter situation MUCH better, reducing manual clean out frequency down to about once a month or so at the worst of the "leaf season".

So now I'm getting close to the point where my pool pump house project is approaching the top of my to-do list. Apparently it's always been out in full sun, and that's very common here. But the PVC is in sad/brittle shape, plus it's quite an eye sore from the back of the property. My plan is too build a sort of open gazebo over the pump/filter mess, move it closer to the wall (still allowing access), and make room to store the vac and other accessories out of the sun while not in use. At the same time as the move and replump I would like to add a mesh sock type (or something) leaf trap pre-filter to finally end the mesquite problem. Imagine my surprise when I couldn't find a decent option readily available.

I can't be the first to deal with this type of issue, so what is the best solution?

[PoolDoc]

I had to go look at Wikipedia to see what the problem was -- there are not so many mesquite trees in Tennessee!

I gather that the leaves go THROUGH the plastic filters in the skimmer and in the pump basket? Probably you want to work out some arrangement so you can use a skimmer sock in your skimmer. I know some folks here on the forum swear by them (picture links to Amazon):
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YwJFW2onL._SL500_AA300_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Devil-Basket-Buddies-Skimmer/dp/B004K51YD8//ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks)

[BadDog]

Thanks for the suggestion.

Yes, the mesquite leaves go right through those plastic basket holes. And on the advice of a local pool guy, I have already tried the "ladies hose" version of the sock. For one thing, it seemed quite restrictive even when clean. But then the thing would plug up almost completely over night, requiring cleaning twice a day in the peak leaf season.

I think the main problem is that is just does not have enough surface area. So what I'm hoping to come up with is something like the large/long Hayward in line mesh sock. The hose inlet channels incoming water right down the middle. When it's clean, anything going in goes right to the toe of the sock. As it fills up, it fills from toe to inlet over some 16"-18" or so of mesh "sock". And even half full, there is more open surface area than there is with a clean skimmer sock as shown, plus holes are small enough to block 99% of the mesquite leaves, while still being far bigger than the sock, so flow remains good until it's about 80% full. That cycle usually takes at least 3 or 4 days as long as I keep the piles from collecting around the pool, and we don't have a big wind storm. It's basically perfect for my needs, but only works for the vacuum.

Given that the in-line vac filter/socks seem pretty common, I really thought for sure such a thing would already exist for the main line. Something finer than the plastic baskets (which only catch sticks and Oak leaves) to keep other debris out of the main particulate filter. It seems those filters are really only supposed to catch dirt and relatively small stuff. It (the main filter) sure doesn't seem to handle my problem well, and I can only imagine a DE or cartridge filter would have even more problems with it.

So if there is no commercial product at a decent price, I may try to make something. It has to be serviceable from within a hard line system (near the main filter), so the straight through doesn't really work well (no good way to unscrew and/or pull off the end). If I could find a good source for the mesh sock material, and a suitable sized tank/receiver, I was thinking about something like a "cyclone" style separator system like used for dust collectors (I have a hobby machine shop and decent equipped wood shop). But making it big enough for the water velocity to slow enough to allow any drop-out would be a problem, as would cleaning the main tank and getting at the Hayward style sock inside. May have to visit some local surplus and scrapper yards to see if I can get a serviceable modest sized commercial stainless pressure container with cam lock lid to service as the main tank. Probably have to settle for some sort of mechanical filter using a long mesh sock, depending on what donor parts I can find.

[PoolDoc]

I really don't have any other suggestions I can offer. I haven't seen your gear, so I have no idea what custom solutions might be possible.

I am curious why we haven't heard about this problem before. Do most folks in Arizona keep these trees away from their pools?

[BadDog]

Well,the general wisdom is, of course, to keep them away from the pools. But mesquite is a very popular ornamental tree most everywhere, so they are certainly quite commonly around pools. And for those with tiny tract homes, if not in your own yard, then you may have one next door that you can do nothing about. While searching I found a fellow desert dweller who complained of a large mesquite just past the wall next to his pool. But his focus was on the stuff going to the bottom and hot to get it out before clogging, which I've already dealt with to my satisfaction. As he noted, the only saving grace is that these do tend to sink quickly, as long as they are not dead and dry. Good for him since most of the dry dead leaves are on the ground opposite the fence, and wind won't carry too many to his pool. Not good for me with flat ground between.

On that note, I have done things to help minimize the problem before it gets in the pool. For instance, I noticed that any little ridge or obstruction causes the blasted dry leaves to congregate on the up-wind side. So I dug out a sort of shallow drain trench beside the deck so that the concrete lip went from 1/2" or so up to about 1.25". Becomes a bit more of a trip hazard, but it's only about 5" wide (hoe width), and no small kids or elderly, so tolerable. Of course that means that if there is any wind, I have to clean it out regularly or it just builds a ramp over the edge. Once a month we go through and blow out all the accumulated leaves (I can't believe there are any actually on the @$%# tree any more!) into a pile and remove. I also vacuum (yeah, I vacuum my back yard) to gather the little collections next to every semi-vertical edge where they collect. Hoses, expansion joints, planter edges, etc. So I take my shop vac and gather the piles periodically, oh joy...

[BigDave]

The Mesuite leaves don't backwash out? Sorry, you answered this in the original post

[PoolDoc]

Dave -- you may be on to something. His pump may be (in a reversal of the normal patter) too small for his filter, OR his filter backwash line may be small or restricted.

With correct flow, those leaves SHOULD wash out, though he might have to backwash weekly, to keep them from clumping.

[BigDave]

This may be gross, but, if it takes extensive or very frequent backwash to remove the mesquite leaves, backwash into the pool through the filter sock that catches the mesquite leaves. Perhaps after a short backwash to waste for the initial rush of ickey then switch to the pool / sock. This may help if water is espcially valuable (in the desert). Maybe run the filter for a coupe extra turnovers after such an operation.

[PoolDoc]

Good idea, Dave!

You might could get a small 8' Intex pool ($45), like this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kJvy0IMxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Intex-Easy-Set-Pool-30/dp/B0009PU0UQ//ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks)
backwash INTO it, let it settle, siphon the clear water back into the pool, and dump the leaf sludge onto your garden. You could even buy the pump ($30) and use it to put the water back into your pool after the gook settles.

(Just love how they show ALL THAT ROOM in a tiny 8' OUTSIDE DIAMETER pool! But, it holds 600+ gallons, which is more than enough for you.)

[BadDog]

For whatever reason, the leaves do not back flush out. I see maybe a few hundred in a full backwash, with thousands upon thousands staying inside. Since we put the sock in-line for the vac, I back-flush about once every 3 weeks outside the heavy leaf seasons (spring/fall), and probably 1.5 weeks during. I just go by the pressure as directed by the local pool equipment guy (not a cleaner). He seems to be ok, once I finally got one who didn't seem like a complete idiot (like the first 2).

As for size, he says it and the whole system are "adequate". To paraphrase, he said something like "It is sized a maybe bit on the shy side for a 25k diving pool, but it will do the job when running right. He was the first to show me how to manually service the filter, what too look for, and what to be careful of damaging (the laterals). His number 1 suggestion, obviously, was to "get over it and get rid of that tree". Still not on board yet, but I did have a tree guy climb up through it and "open it up". Now looks sorta like something you would see on the African Savannah, and LOTS less mess than the first spring.

The back was line is all exposed 2" PVC. There is a single "street bend" 90, and then 2 45s to get is relatively horizontal and low to the ground, followed by 2 10' sections end to end to get clear of the "pump area". From there I put a 25' 2" roll up on to get the water to a tree basin so that I get SOME use from all the wasted water. Tree (elm I think?) seems quite happy. Flow seems huge to me, and I had to construct a dispersion pad from block to keep from starting an open pit mine every time I back flush. I could back-flush 2k gallons and still not do much against the accumulation of those blasted little leaves. And I'm not kidding about the volume. Early on, in desperation before just accepting the manual clean out, I let it run a LONG time. Long after the water ran clear, dropping water level enough that the skimmer was sucking air, and still had about 2 gallons of leaf mush (almost like clay in parts) to remove by hand.

[Watermom]

I think you need to post a picture of what this tree looks like for all of us who are reading your thread. Send a pic to poolforum@gmail.com and reference the url of this thread so we can get it in the right place.

[kelemvor]

Have you considered a "Bird Cage" screen enclosure for the pool? Somewhat costly, but it would keep the leaves out.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pool+enclosure&hl=en&client=firefox-nightly&hs=QLZ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=_JyBT5aGN5Km8ASChujjBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CG8Q_AUoAQ&biw=1579&bih=852

[BadDog]

As I mentioned earlier, this place is a fixer-upper, and I've got thousands of dollars worth of renovations far ahead of spending that much money on a leaf problem. Nice idea, and would be a nice solution in several ways, but not in the cards any time soon.

Just took a pic, sending it momentarily...

[BadDog]

Did that picture ever show up?

I lost my old image host when Pixa just evaporated with no warning. On top of that, Cox decided to eliminate the bundled web space that I used to use for images. I suppose I need to set up a new hosting service for stuff like this.

So, anyone know of a good source for largish containers similar to (but larger than) the common plastic basket container that goes in front of the pump impeller? Preferably something less cantankerous that that screw on lid, something I can readily access to remove and clean a mesh sock but mounted in the 2" hard lines before my pump input.

[PoolDoc]

Pictures:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OBJccbm2vns/T4LlB7WSNvI/AAAAAAAACNk/U6bXIB9X7z8/s800/DSCN2836-pool.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RwxyF1o3gms/T4LlB2hquCI/AAAAAAAACNo/nx2DDGfC_tk/s800/DSCN2836-tree.jpg

Mesquite leaves from Creative Commons licensed photos on Flickr
phoenixdailyphoto:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mIEbNgzVD0o/T4Lua0N3Z6I/AAAAAAAACN0/eaR_mjvY3HI/s800/phoenixdaily-2596683184_2b41fe36de_b.jpg

Ms. Phoenix:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8P9FRnmMPLA/T4LubmjaHFI/AAAAAAAACN8/dln0f2L2TCI/s800/Ms.%2520Phoenix%2520mesquite%2520leaf.jpg

[BigDave]

Nice!, Love the tree!

[BadDog]

Thanks. My wife absolutely loves it, and I like it quite a lot. I think it "really makes" that end of the pool yard. Hence the desire to find a solution other than removal of the tree.

Now if I can just find time to replace the siding on the hot tub, remove the palm and yuka to replace with something more appropriate for in-slab planters, replumb the pool filter/pump, put in proper irrigation for trees instead of bubblers right at the trunk (combined on same valve with low water plants!), resurface the pool slab, touch-up the "rock features" (ugh), flagstone most of the dirt around the Mesquite,... <sigh>

[BadDog]

Thought I would post an update.

I still haven't figured out a way to put some sort of screen bag/trap in front of the main filter. So I'm still having to pull the top and scoop out Mesquite droppings (flowers, leaves, etc) every week or two.

However, my daughter announced her engagement and they want to have the wedding ceremony under the Mesquite tree. Normally I hate grass in the desert, but having the wedding on dusty dirt along combined with threat of wind (not at all uncommon) forced my hand. Now I have sprinklers in that small area along with grass (tall fescue mostly) growing there. Once that's established, and will be left high most of the time, I'm hoping it will trap much/most of the mess in the turf. Then using the bag with frequent mowing will hopefully give me a way to control the worst of it.

[PoolDoc]

Just in case you ever move east, I'll give you a heads up: stay away from pools surrounded by 'crap myrtles' (and they do, 365 days per year), river birch trees (fluffy seeds by the bushel), or cottonwoods (fuzz that stops up EVERYTHING!). ;)

[Sean OBrien]

or Pine trees, palm trees (especially of the Pindo variety...pretty sure the squirrels are tossing the seed shells into the pool while I sleep) or pretty much anything else.

Not sure how creative you want to get or how much you are looking to spend on this issue or for that matter how much space you have to work with - but take a look settling tanks used in garden ponds (for Koi and the like). The leaves are more of a problem there since you generally have a lot of vegetation planted right on top of your pond, and since you don't have the chlorine, when they start to break down they can fowl the water pretty fast...so you want to get them out as easily as possible.

The tank I used with our old pond (had honey locust leaves which posed a similar issue as your mesquite tree) was pretty simple. I took 1/2" acrylic and cut it to my needed sizes. Built a tank with the inlet on one side (PVC) and the outlet on the otherside (also PVC). In the middle of the tank I had three walls which went from side to side. The first one went from the very top to about 2 inches above the bottom of the tank. The second wall was from the bottom to about two inches below the water line. The third went from top to bottom but was made of a perforated acrylic sheet (looked a bit like peg board with a bunch of 1/4" holes drilled in it). It was made with two sheets separated by about 1". This allowed me to slide a piece of fiber filter material in between the two panels to catch any big stuff still in the water column - almost like the cheap A/C filters. The overall size of the tank was about the same size as a 55 gallon aquarium (48" x 16" x 24" or around there. Everything was solvent welded with acrylic cement. As the water came in from the inlet anything that would float would float up to the top before the first wall. Since the velocity dropped so much (going from a round 2" PVC pipe to a big open chamber with a space 2" x 16" for the water to flow through), anything that was a sinker would sink as the water went over the second wall. When it got to the fiber filter, about all that was left was bits of soft organic matter that had the same density as water (or close to it). Once a week or so during the fall I would open the top and scoop the leaves off the floating side, suck the junk out of the bottom and rinse off the filter. Previously I had to deal with the proper filter clogging up about every three days.

You would obviously want something that is different then that to some extent in that yours will likely not be able to use normal siphon actions to keep the flow going (the water line in my settling tank was the same as the water line in the pond). However, I know that there are commercially available units which do the same thing and are sealed systems (look a bit like a small sand filter IIRC). Take a look around and you might be able to find one that you can plump into your system to take care of the problem.

[BadDog]

Doc:

Yeah, I have seen the products of cottonwood trees. Probably worse than my problems, and maybe the others too, and I'm sure there are others to greater or lesser extent. You would think with the obviously common problem there would be a product out there. Something as simple as a hard-line version of my in-pool in-line vacuum filter just seems like an obvious thing to sell for a company like Hayward or others in the market. If it were not so much trouble to cobble up a "sealed for vacuum yet accessible to clean/clear" container I would be enthusiastic to experiment even at some risk to my (cheap old school) pump.

Sean:

Thanks, that's a very interesting suggestions. I had some thoughts along those lines, but as you note, the problem is keeping a seal so that the suction continues to move the water. I've even thought of maybe finding an old sand filter canister to put up stream before the real filter with some sort of separator rigged to eliminate most of the leaves and such. But apparently there is concern about that creating problems and damaging the pump.

For now, I guess I'm stumped. Maybe by the time I've gotten through my latest diversion in priorities something will present itself...

[Sean OBrien]

Yah, it was more the concept which had merrit as opposed to the application itself. If it were me, I would definitely work the issue more completely - but a lot of that goes back to being an engineer who spends most of the day editing technical manuals as opposed to designing things (makes for good mental aerobics).

I know when I was living in Japan in the 90s the apartment's had a community pond in the courtyard area and they used a prefilter that looked a lot like the sand filters used in pools here. I never looked on the inside to see how it was plumbed though - so I am not too sure what would need to be done to put one together here (I also haven't seen one commercially available in the US).

Because of the backyard I have to work with though, it is something that I have been trying to figure out a better solution for as well. The skimmer socks have helped a good bit, but I have to clean them every morning - and ideally I would like to minimize the maintenance without having to hire a pool company. Right now, what I am considering is two or three of the Pentek PBH filter housings in order to minimize pressure drops and maintain the flow rate with the largest filter bag they offer. That should catch the larger items that make it through the skimmer screen and still provide long enough between maintenance to make having a pool fun as opposed to work.

I haven't crunched the numbers yet though - however it looks like it should work at a glance.

[BadDog]

That Pentek PBH looks like it's headed in the right direction. But as you suggested, it appears you would need at least 2 in parallel. Too bad they don't make one about twice that size with 2" fittings (without doubling the cost).