spring startup

[jarsch]

Do I need to balance PH and Alkalinity before shocking also need to raise both PH and alkalinity what would be the best procedure .

[PoolDoc]

Hi Gerald;

I'm assuming you're opening your pool??

1. Add chlorine first: just use bleach at the rate of 1 gallon of plain 6% bleach per 10,000 gallons of water, as soon as you get your pump running.

2. If you don't have one, get a cheap OTO / phenol red test kit, like this one:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CHy5nWRiLzg/T3tGd9C7ycI/AAAAAAAACE0/3fc0paVdJ6Q/s800/Taylor-K1000-trimmed.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-K-1000-Basic-Residential-Pool/dp/B002NSRD5C//ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks) If you like, you can click the picture and order that kit from Amazon, for about $14 . . . or you can go to Walmart and look for something similar. The Taylor kit is a little better than what you'll find at Wally-world.

While you're figuring out what to do next, use bleach and the OTO to maintain chlorine levels at 3 - 5 ppm, by testing and dosing each evening.

3. Tell us what SORT of pool you have -- in ground, above ground; vinyl, concrete, fiberglass; gallons; heater?; SWCG (Salt Water Chlorine Generator). To know what you need to do next, we need to know what sort of pool you have. For example, if you have a concrete pool or a heater, you have to manage your calcium hardness level . . . but with other pools it doesn't matter much.

4. Unless you have a very small pool, or just filled it up, you'll need an accurate test for stabilizer, and 'guess-strips' don't count! You can use the link in my signature to order a K2006 kit from Amazon (or you can search online -- you're not likely to find one locally!) OR you can wait a bit, till you've opened the pool, tested with the OTO/phenol red kit, and let us know what sort of pool you've got.

Good luck!

[Watermom]

Hi Jarsch and welcome to the Pool Forum. Give us a set of current water testing results taken with a drops-based kit and let someone here have a look before giving advice. If you don't have a good kit, you'll need one. We recommend the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C (same kit but 2-oz. vs. 0.75-oz. bottles of reagents and a better buy). You can get it from the Amazon link in my signature below. In the meantime, get a cheap OTO/Phenol Red kit (yellow and red drops) from Walmart or someplace. Post your results.

Also, give us more information about your pool.

EDIT -- looks like Ben and I were posting at the same time!

[jarsch]

my pool is fiberglass 6500 gal test results no chlorine showing ,PH below6.8, alkalinity below 20 ppm using a Pentair test kit but have ordered a taylor 2006c test kit thanks Jarsch

[Watermom]

The most critical problem you have right now is low pH as any reading below 7.0 is acidic and can damage your pool! We normally recommend using 20 Mule Team Borax (laundry aisle at Walmart) to raise the pH. However, since your alkalinity is also low, you can use Arm and Hammer washing soda to raise both at the same time. Add it slowly to the skimmer, breaking up any clumps, while the pump is running. I'd start with a fourth of a box at a time. Wait a few hours, retest, redose until you get your pH between 7.2-7.8 and your alk between 80-120 or so. (Just an FYI, if you need to raise pH only and not alk, you use Borax.)

Also, get some bleach in there per Ben's instructions before it turns green!

By the way, you can work on pH, alk and chlorine at the same time. No problem.

Good decision buying the good kit. As soon as you get it, post a set of testing results. We really need to know the CYA level to pinpoint our advise more accurately for your pool's chlorine requirements.

Let us know if you have more questions.

[PoolDoc]

If you can get your pump running add borax slowly to the skimmer, a box every 30 minutes, till you get your pH over 7.0.

[jarsch]

Hey thanks you all are great thanks for the advice will get back as soon as i get new test kit and new readings have a great day Jarsch

[jarsch]

Hey: Thank you all . I had this pool (fiberglass,6500 gal, in ground chlorine sanitizer ) 10 years . This year is 1st year not stressed because of your help. Received my Taylor 2006c test kit love it. Ran test today results - chlorine none ( put 2 gal. bleach 2 days ago) ,PH 7.8-Alkalinity 80 PPM-Calcium Hardness 150 PPM-Cyanuric Acid 80 PPM. Am trying to balance before opening the pool have pump running cover on. What do I do next? Thanks again Jerry

[jarsch]

Forgot to mention I use Trichoro auto despenced. Thanks jerry

[PoolDoc]

You don't need to 'balance' anything; your pH and CYA are on the high end, but not anything you have to change right now.

1. Get a cheap OTO / phenol red kit, in addition to the K2006. You can get the Taylor K1000 (click-pic for Amazon)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CHy5nWRiLzg/T3tGd9C7ycI/AAAAAAAACE0/3fc0paVdJ6Q/s144/Taylor-K1000-trimmed.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-K-1000-Basic-Residential-Pool/dp/B002NSRD5C/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks)
or buy something locally. (You'll use this to keep from using up your K2006 unnecessarily.)


2. Check your chlorine in the PM; if the chlorine level is not dark yellow (> 5 ppm) add 1/2 gallon of bleach.


3. Read the Best Guess page (in my signature) and the Muriatic Acid sticky (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111).


4. After you have done so, decide whether you want to use muriatic acid (bought locally) or sodium bisulfate (bought from Amazon or locally):
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vt9QomAzP0w/T3ogAtiuDtI/AAAAAAAAB7A/fwMeHUz3BCE/s144/lowes_muriatic_acid.jpg . . . OR . . . (click-pic for Amazon) https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9xr7y1lfEew/T3tEBP9S3LI/AAAAAAAAB-c/MdI37Q5CGFc/s144/kt_pH_minus_sm.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Nava-Chemicals-652023183-Decreaser-6-Pound/dp/B004BFRL3Y/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks)


5. Think about whether you want to run a high CYA / high chlorine pool (1x per week chlorination -- but really weird looks at the pool store) or a conventional pool.


5. Don't use any more trichlor -- or that feeder -- till you decide.

[jarsch]

I have muriatic acid how much should I use also what is a high CYA / high chlorine pool (answer 5 ) Thanks jerry

[PoolDoc]

Basically, a pool operating in the last row of the Best Guess chart.

Operating with CYA that high, you also have to run high chlorine. But the high CYA allows you to 'bank' lots of chlorine in the pool water, with the result that you can add chlorine just 1x or 2x per week. This makes going on a week long vacation a snap.

However, if you let things slide, and get algae, the algae killing doses of chlorine are very high, and take weeks to drop. The work-around it to use small, carefully calibrated doses of sodium bromide, which creates an unstabilized bromine residual to kill your algae.

If you keep want to use up your trichlor, you'll have to either run high chlorine/high CYA or drain, and draining can be hazardous to your pool if the ground is wet, or if you have a liner pool.

[jarsch]

what is a CYA/high chlorine pool ? Thanks jerry

================================================== =====

I like the triclor so i guess i drain water a foot or so at a time untill i get CYN down .Is their any way to us a auto dispencer with out using triclor?

[PoolDoc]

HiC2 pool, roughly speaking is a pool with CYA levels around 150ppm, that is operated (per the Best Guess chart) with chlorine normals between 8 & 15 ppm, and shock doses to 25 ppm.

The benefits are:
1. your overall chlorine loss drops.
2. you have a large chlorine 'reservoir' in the pool, so an 'event', like a party of peeing people, doesn't mess up the pool.
3. if you dose manually, you maintain your pool with only 1 or 2 doses of chlorine per week, cutting down on maintenance time.

The problems are:
1. You must use FAS-DPD testing for chlorine-- you can NOT use DPD tablet testing. (You can use OTO to get a rough measurement of chlorine)
2. You must use Taylor's phenol red for pH testing AND use a special dilution (1/2 pool water + 1/2 distilled water -- available at Walmart) when you test.
3. If you let algae get started, you must either (a) raise your chlorine to VERY high levels, possibly as high as 50 ppm, (b) use an algaecide, (c) use sodium bromide -- but let me give you instructions! If you use very high chlorine, it will take weeks to drop. Algaecides either stain OR don't play well with chlorine. So . . . I recommend bromide (CAREFULLY!) + borates.
4. If you tell anyone what you are doing, they will think you are crazy.

The history behind this is what chlorine 'shooters' -- they service pools by injecting chlorine gas directly into the pool weekly -- have been doing for 40+ years. I've known about this for years. In fact, knowing about it was one of the key triggers for the thinking and work that led to the Best Guess chart. But, there were some pieces to the puzzle of how individual pool owners could do this, that I only worked out in the last year.

Richard (Chem_Geek) has reservations about this, because of the high chlorine levels to kill algae. But, the answer is two-fold:

1. Use of borates at 50 - 70 ppm will reduce the pool's 'friendliness' to algae.
2. Keeping the borates high, and the alkalinity (TA) low will do the same, because the CA (carbonate alkalinity - carbon dioxide for plant growth) will also be low.
3. If you keep your chlorine levels up, and maintain your pool, algae is unlikely.
4. Careful application of sodium bromide -- IF algae occurs -- will introduce an unstabilized halogen residual, that will tend to be effective against algae at levels of 0.5ppm bromine or LESS.
5. In OUTDOOR pools, where the chlorine levels is several multiples of the bromide / bromine levels, the bromide will be converted to inactive (in a pool sense) bromate in a fairly short period, avoiding the problems described in my Once a Bromine Pool (http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/once-a-bromine-pool-always-a-bromine-pool.html) page.

The bottom line is, a HiC2 pool is easier and cheaper, but you have to prepare, and learn how to do it BEFORE you start. This means:

1. Having a K2006 (or equiv) and a K1000 (OTO / Taylor phenol red on hand
2. Maintaining 50+ ppm borate levels in your pool
3. Having sodium bromide on hand, AND having pre-calculated doses for your pool.
4. Having polyquat on hand (as a final backup!)

Phosphate removers could be a final backup, except that they are likely to rapidly go off the market. They use lanthanum, which is one of the 'rare' earths for which China has gained a state mining and production monopoly. I've been told re-packager pricing for lanthanum chloride has gone from $1.20/lb in 2010 to $20+/lb in 2011, to unavailable in 2012!

[jarsch]

Sounds a little complicated to me can I use bleach as sanitizer in place of triclor to keep CYN down and use triclor when I need CYN also have some shock left from last season can it be used with the bleach Thanks Jerry

[aylad]

You can use bleach as a sanitizer to keep the CYA levels down--that's exactly what most folks on this forum do!! You can use the "shock" left from last season even if you're using bleach, but read the ingredient label first--if it's sodium dichloro.........(long, unpronounceable word), then that also contains CYA, actually more pound-per-pound than trichlor does, if I'm not mistaken. It still can be used, but keep and eye on the CYA. If the ingredient is calcium hypochlorite, then it also can be used, is not stabilized, but will raise your calcium levels.

[Watermom]

if it's sodium dichloro.........(long, unpronounceable word), then that also contains CYA, actually more pound-per-pound than trichlor does, if I'm not mistaken.

Jan is right about that. Dichlor adds 9ppm of CYA for every 10ppm of chlorine it adds. Trichlor adds 6ppm of CYA per 10ppm of chlorine.

[PoolDoc]

Jarsh,

The bottom line is that every approach to pool chemistry is "a little complicated" till you get used to it.

I can still remember first encountering pool chemistry, when I was hired by a pool store to work for them as a plumber (which I was) and service manager (which I did rather badly). I've always had a knack for chemistry (A+ in high school chemistry, and in the honors lab class), but I didn't know pool chemistry.

There's no alternative but to work through it. Once you pick an approach, and work through it, it will become easy and familiar. But, it can't be that easy at first. We can work you through that process . . . but YOU are still the one who has to master it.

Unfortunately, shortcuts in learning pool chemistry put you at the mercy of a predatory pool retail trade. The simple fact is, pool stores staff can be honest and ignorant, and profitable. Or they can be knowledgeable and dishonest, and profitable. But there is simply no way for them to be honest AND knowledgeable . . . AND profitable! So pool stores come in three types: knowledgeable, OR honest, OR going-out-of-business.

The most knowledgeable, but dishonest, ones are too bad: they know enough to not 'pool-store' you badly enough to drive you away. That way, they can keep ripping you off for years!

[jarsch]

Thanks for all the help my PH is 7.6 my Ta is 60 ppm how can I raise the TA without raising the PH? Thanks Jerry

[aylad]

You can raise the TA by using plain Arm & Hammer baking soda, but if you're going to use unstabilized chlorine from here out, the TA is just fine at 60 ppm.

Janet

[PoolDoc]

Janet's right, of course.

But, why do you want to raise your TA? It's a fiberglass pool. With your CYA that high, you are going to have to run VERY high levels of chlorine to avoid algae. Using bleach won't lower your CYA; it will just keep it from going higher.

You'd be better off adding borates (and acid) to get additional pH stabilization in the water. LOW carbonate alkalinity -- the part of TA that baking soda raises -- inhibits algae. High borates ALSO inhibit algae. On your pool, 6 boxes of borax, plus 2 gallons of muriatic acid should get you there.

Read this thread: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111 about using muriatic safely.

[jarsch]

When testing water with regents does temp ( 50 F ) affect readings Thanks Jerry

[PoolDoc]

I don't think so, but it will slow reaction times, so you may want double or triple the time you wait before reading, especially on the chlorine and CYA tests.

[jarsch]

how much bleach is needed to shock pool 6500 gal fiberglass pool thanks Jerry

[Watermom]

In your pool, each quart of 6% bleach will add about 2.3ppm of chlorine. Shock level needed is based on your CYA level. See more about this in the Best Guess Chlorine Chart in my signature below.

[jarsch]

Would like to thank you all for all the help it has made pool care a lot simplier. Determining when to shock have a taylor k-2006 test kit My reading are CL 1.6- COMBINED CL 0.5- PH 7.4-AL 100-HARDNESS 180-CYA 40 .what would the readings be if I need to shock pool? again thanks Jerry

[PoolDoc]

If you are not having any particular problems, adding enough chlorine 1x per week, to take you up to the Best Guess shock level, certainly provides some safety factor.

Also, if you were using the 0.2 ppm / drop dilution of the DPD-FAS test, then 0.5 CC is a bit high, in which case a shock dose would be appropriate now. BTW, you do NOT have to stop swimming when you shock, except to give the chlorine time to mix.

[jarsch]

Is CC what determines if you need to shock ? And what is the normal reading if you don't need to shock? again Thanks Jerry

[PoolDoc]

There's no absolute answer; most of the time, if it's more than the minimum reading, shocking is a good idea. But, some pools tend to run a bit more CC, and if it's not causing a problem . . . then it's not a problem. The minimum reading is 0.2 with the 0.2 ppm drop test, and 0.5 with the 0.5 ppm drop test.

[jarsch]

Thanks,
Jerry

[Watermom]

Thanks Jerry

Jerry? Who's Jerry? As in Ben and Jerry maybe?

[jarsch]

No just plane old Jerry from Indiana

[BigDave]

just plane old Jerry from IndianaSounds like a new flavor.

[Watermom]

Now I get it. Ben's edit made it clear. I thought you were thanking Jerry. Instead you are saying thanks from Jerry.

Well, plain old Jerry from Indiana --- welcome to the Pool Forum! We are very glad to have you! Hope I didn't offend you. I thought perhaps Ben had decided to change his name or something! He's prone to doing funny things at times!