Here's my numbers

[jnorris]

Brand new 18' x 40' vinyl pool, 3' to 6' depth. I used the test kit the PB left me (test strips, I know, get a better kit!) and here is the result:

CL 2.0
FC 2.0
CC must be zero, right?
PH 7.6
CYA 30
TA 80

From what my test kit says, I'm OK with these numbers. Water is sparkling clear. Temp is now about 78 degrees, but we had it up to 90 degrees (propane heater) for a day or so for a party. As the temp goes up, do the ideal numbers change?

The PB has yet to teach me how to do anything, and has put chemicals in himself. Pool uses some kind of chlorine sticks. Believe me, when he comes, I am prepared with lots of questions, thanks to the people on this board!

Another question: How can I calculate the number of gallons in the pool? It is a 3 bump kidney, so it's not so straightforward. Should the PB be able to tell me for sure?

Judy

[Watermom]

Your numbers are OK, but actually you probably should be running your chlorine more like 3-6. See the chart at the following link. Higher temps don't really change the testing readings you are looking for. Should still be the same. Also, I'd ask him specifically what he is putting in your pool, though. Not just 'pool sticks' but ingredients. He ought to be able to give you an estimate on your volume.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365

[jnorris]

Thanks, Watermom. PB finally came by tonight for my Pool 101 course. He actually suggested I bump up my TA to around 120. He is going to supply me with a season's worth of chemicals for free, because we have had so many problems with leaks and stuff (still working on that!) He suggested using Cal Hypo for shock, the chlorine sticks (sorry, I didn't get the name of them, but I know they have the CYA in them, and they go in an automatic chlorinator) for basic chlorine, and baking soda to raise TA. He says that around here our water is slightly acidic, so it's possible we may be adding baking soda a good bit.

I'll up the chlorinator a bit, and retest in a few days, to see if I can get my CL level up. He said I probably wouldn't need to test for CYA much, but from what I've read here, my CYA level will determine what my CL level needs to be, so I'll be checking that anyway.

Thanks so much for you help!

Judy

[MaryLee]

He said I probably wouldn't need to test for CYA much, but from what I've read here, my CYA level will determine what my CL level needs to be, so I'll be checking that anyway.

I like to keep my CYA level around 30-40. Since you are already at 30, you may want to consider just using bleach and forget about the "sticks" which are trichlor. They will quickly raise your CYA levels. I tend to use my chlorinator for times when I'm out of town only or if I need to up my CYA a little upon opening. Even though he's giving you chemicals for "free", in the long run they may mess up your pool costing you more money to fix. Stick with the bleach :)

[KurtV]

Judy,
Please let me commend you on doing your research AND asking good questions. It's obvious that you're taking responsibility for YOUR pool and that you're taking control of it. Keep reading here and asking questions and you'll do great.

Watermom and MaryLee are giving you good advice re: CYA and bagging the sticks and pucks in favor of bleach.

[jnorris]

Judy,
Please let me commend you on doing your research AND asking good questions. It's obvious that you're taking responsibility for YOUR pool and that you're taking control of it. Keep reading here and asking questions and you'll do great.

Watermom and MaryLee are giving you good advice re: CYA and bagging the sticks and pucks in favor of bleach.

Aw, you're too kind! Thanks for the encouragement. This is all new to me. A few weeks ago I couldn't even tell you what a skimmer was; and now, I can backwash my filter!

RE: the sticks; you know, I asked him that very question tonight. If I need to raise my CL and do it by setting the feeder higher, won't that also increase my CYA? I'm wondering if I can't just get my CYA where I want it, and then stop using the sticks and just use bleach for regular sanitation. And if my CYA drops, can I switch back to using the sticks again? But then again, we are away alot (will be out of town for at least a week each month this summer) so maybe I need to stay with the sticks? And if I do switch to bleach, can I still use the Cal Hypo to shock? I know that using bleach to shock would probably be cheaper, but I really don't want to be buying cartloads of bleach every week.

Judy

[KurtV]

Aw, you're too kind! Thanks for the encouragement. This is all new to me. A few weeks ago I couldn't even tell you what a skimmer was; and now, I can backwash my filter!

RE: the sticks; you know, I asked him that very question tonight. If I need to raise my CL and do it by setting the feeder higher, won't that also increase my CYA?
Yes. That's exactly right. You'll be adding CYA all the time.

I'm wondering if I can't just get my CYA where I want it, and then stop using the sticks and just use bleach for regular sanitation.
Exactly.

And if my CYA drops, can I switch back to using the sticks again?
Your CYA won't normally drop on its own (with some exceptions; search the forum for threads on biodegradation of CYA)

But then again, we are away alot (will be out of town for at least a week each month this summer) so maybe I need to stay with the sticks?
Good thinking, almost. Save the sticks for those times when you'll be out of town. That way your CYA won't build up to crazy levels like it will if you use the sticks all the time.

And if I do switch to bleach, can I still use the Cal Hypo to shock? I know that using bleach to shock would probably be cheaper, but I really don't want to be buying cartloads of bleach every week.
You really shouldn't need to shock that often. Only when you have combined chlorine in excess of 0.5 ppm. You can shock with cal-hypo, but remember that you'll be adding calcium to your water every time you do (you didn't post your calcium number so I don't know if that will be an immediate problem or not).

Judy
Again, you've got a great start on this.

[CarlD]

Thanks, Watermom. PB finally came by tonight for my Pool 101 course. He actually suggested I bump up my TA to around 120.

That's a good number--you raise TA by adding either soda ash (when you also want to raise pH) or just baking soda--do NOT use baking soda to raise pH--it will ramp up your TA. You don't raise TA to compensate for low pH.



He is going to supply me with a season's worth of chemicals for free, because we have had so many problems with leaks and stuff (still working on that!)


But what chemicals is VERY important. The wrong ones are worthless.



He suggested using Cal Hypo for shock, the chlorine sticks (sorry, I didn't get the name of them, but I know they have the CYA in them, and they go in an automatic chlorinator) for basic chlorine, and baking soda to raise TA. He says that around here our water is slightly acidic, so it's possible we may be adding baking soda a good bit.


We need to dissect this: If your pool is concrete/tile/plaster, the Cal Hypo is good for adding needed calcium--you need 200-400ppm--and will add chlorine as well. It's also a bit basic so it raises pH a little, which is good.

HOWEVER, a concrete pool when it's new tends to push pH up a LOT and many new owners need to add Muriatic Acid all the time until it cures.

I absolutely would NOT be combining Tri-Chlor pucks and Cal-Hypo even though you are adding them separately. If your pool is concrete, the pucks will add needed CYA and fight the tendency of pH to rise. Still, once CYA is in the 30-50ppm range you are asking for trouble if you continue to use the pucks after that.

If your water is slightly acidic, once you have a good T/A and a proper pH, it won't matter--it won't be acidic--only your fill water will be. While baking soda raises T/A, you do NOT want to raise it much above 125. He's confused the need for T/A with the need to raise pH. They are related BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING! We suggest using ordinary Borax (Right, 20 Mule Team Borax) to raise pH.

Now, if you have a vinyl pool, your expectations are different. Calcium provides no benefit (unlike for concrete) but is pretty much harmless below 500 ppm. So don't PAY for calcium, it just doesn't hurt in Cal-Hypo. You won't see pH moving up from concrete curing, either, so I only see Tri-Chlor pucks for the short term--and expect to use a lot of Borax to get pH to normal. Pucks are good until CYA is good but after that you shouldn't use them. That's why I believe automatic chlorinators that use pucks are a waste of money.

T/A can go as high as 180-200ppm in a vinyl pool with no problem.



I'll up the chlorinator a bit, and retest in a few days, to see if I can get my CL level up. He said I probably wouldn't need to test for CYA much, but from what I've read here, my CYA level will determine what my CL level needs to be, so I'll be checking that anyway.

Yup! Good thinking!



Thanks so much for you help!

Judy

Judy,
You can use pucks and Cal-hypo effectively, but you simply must be aware of the side-effects and when they are good, and when they are BAD!

Cal-hypo adds calcium. This can be good when you need it, bad when it's too high. In vinyl, it's useless but harmless below 500ppm.

Tri-Chlor adds CYA and is VERY acidic. This is good in new concrete pools, OK in vinyl with low CYA, but very bad in high CYA pools or pools that tend to be acidic generally.

SWGs don't add anything, but a lot of users report their water tends to trend to high pH and use a lot of Muriatic Acid.

Only plain bleach/Liquid Chlorine is harmless to your water. It has very little effect on pH (although it is basic), and adds nothing. That's why most of us here rely on it.

As for your pool volume: First you calculate how many cubic feet it contains (the water part, not the whole pool. If it is anything other than a rectangle with a constant depth, you have to break it up into components and calculate the volume of each--High School Solid Geometry. Once you have the cubic feet, you convert to gallons by multiplying by 7.48

If I remember correctly, a sphere has a volume of 3/4 PI* R Cubed (frequently pools have half a sphere). Cones are 1/3 PI*R squared * Height. I don't remember the formula for a pyramid, but it can be broken down into triangles and simple dimensions.

Now that you've spent all this money on your pool, toss out the test strips and spend $60-$80 on a GOOD test kit--one that uses the FAS-DPD test for chlorine levels. DPD is NOT the same thing, don't accept it in lieu of FAS-DPD. Ben (PoolDoc) has it in his kit on PoolSolutions.com, but Taylor's 2006 kit has it, and Leslie's on-line site has a similar kit. All 3 use FAS-DPD for testing and include all the other tests you've been asked for. I GUARANTEE the kit will pay for itself several times over in just the first season.

I hope all this helps....

[jnorris]

Wow, this kind of advice is priceless! OK, more questions:

OK, mine is a vinyl pool, so I understand that the calcium getting added with the Cal Hypo is not needed, but not really a problem unless the calcium level gets too high. PB recommended that I shock once a week using the Cal Hypo. But I'm hearing all of you say that maybe I shouldn't have to shock once a week. Could it be that he is recommending shock once a week, to sort of "make up" for the fact that my FC is 2ppm? Or should I just shock when my test results warrant (like when CC is above .5)? Does it make a difference that I live in SC, and we have 90's and 100's in the summer, plus we have a heater?

Regarding TA, I guess with a PH of 7.6, I definitely don't want to raise that too much, so I guess the baking soda is the way to go to raise TA. He was getting his number of what my TA should be, based on what I was using to shock (cal hypo) and sanitize (chlorine sticks). He said it should probably be between 100 and 140. So he said to raise it to 120 we would add 16 lbs of baking soda. So I guess that will be OK to do?

Regarding converting to bleach for weekly sanitation, how do I add it? I don't want to bleach out my beautiful new liner. PB told me that when I use the Cal Hypo to shock, I should add it very carefully and very slowly to the skimmer basket, so that it gets deposited in the filter and gets distributed that way. Can I (should I) pour bleach in the skimmer? What would be the typical amount I would add each week: are we talking maybe one or two jugs, or 10 jugs? Since I will be the one doing the work, I don't really want to be loading up my grocery cart with 10 jugs of bleach each week.

One more: PB said in this area, most pools end up with mustard algae at some point in the summer. He recommended that I call him when this happens, and he will come out and put in a copper algaecide that is made a special way so that the copper won't come out of the suspension and damage the liner. Does this make sense? I asked him about using polyquat, but he said the copper stuff works better.

Once again, I thank all of you for the great education. You people are the best!

Judy

[KurtV]

...PB recommended that I shock once a week using the Cal Hypo. But I'm hearing all of you say that maybe I shouldn't have to shock once a week. Could it be that he is recommending shock once a week, to sort of "make up" for the fact that my FC is 2ppm? Or should I just shock when my test results warrant (like when CC is above .5)?
Yes, only when you need it (CC above 0.5 ppm). You'll start to develop a feel for when that's going to happen by testing regularly and paying attention to what's going on in your pool (a bunch of swimmers, lots of kids who leave little presents, lots of leaves and stuff, etc.) but there's not any good reason I know of to shock on a schedule.

Does it make a difference that I live in SC, and we have 90's and 100's in the summer, plus we have a heater?
For chlorine, not really. Your chlorine demands may be higher than for a pool in the great white north but procedurally, everything's the same.

On the heater, there are some who theorize that you need to keep more calcium in your water to protect your heater and you'll find some threads in the forum that speak directly to that issue (though I've seen nothing that was very definitive). I don't know enough about that for my opinion to be of any value.

Regarding TA, I guess with a PH of 7.6, I definitely don't want to raise that too much, so I guess the baking soda is the way to go to raise TA. He was getting his number of what my TA should be, based on what I was using to shock (cal hypo) and sanitize (chlorine sticks). He said it should probably be between 100 and 140. So he said to raise it to 120 we would add 16 lbs of baking soda. So I guess that will be OK to do?
Your TA is in the normal range now. It won't hurt anything to raise it but it probably won't help much of anything either. I'd suggest you leave the alkalinity alone and see what happens naturally. If you have trouble controlling your pH over the next few weeks, you can raise the alkalinity a bit then. If you do decide to do it, add half or even a quarter of what the PB recommends (or better yet, download mwsmith's BleachCalc and figure it out using that), wait a day, test, and repeat as needed until you get it to where you want it.

Regarding converting to bleach for weekly sanitation, how do I add it? I don't want to bleach out my beautiful new liner. PB told me that when I use the Cal Hypo to shock, I should add it very carefully and very slowly to the skimmer basket, so that it gets deposited in the filter and gets distributed that way. Can I (should I) pour bleach in the skimmer? What would be the typical amount I would add each week: are we talking maybe one or two jugs, or 10 jugs? Since I will be the one doing the work, I don't really want to be loading up my grocery cart with 10 jugs of bleach each week.
You can add bleach through the skimmer or just pour it in the pool in front of a return or walk around the pool adding small amounts as you go. None of those methods should have any appreciable affect on the liner.

The amount of bleach you'll use depends on too many variables to give you a firm answer. 10 gallons per week is not out of the realm of the possible but neither is 3 or 4 gallons per week (or eve less at some times of the year. You can also by liquid chlorine in higher concentrations (10% and 12.5% typically) at pool stores; that would save you some lugging around. Be warned, however, that the higher concentration bleach tends to degrade faster and that it will eat holes in clothes and other things more readily than the household stuff.

One more: PB said in this area, most pools end up with mustard algae at some point in the summer. He recommended that I call him when this happens, and he will come out and put in a copper algaecide that is made a special way so that the copper won't come out of the suspension and damage the liner. Does this make sense? I asked him about using polyquat, but he said the copper stuff works better.
It's very unlikely that you'll have to deal with any algae if you're diligent about maintaining your water chemistry; especially the chlorine level. Remember that your PB has been teaching people to run fairly high CYA levels which supresses chlorine's sanitizing and oxidizing action and that could well be why they're seeing annual algae blooms. In the (hopefully unlikely) event you do have a bloom, most people here will tell you to deal with it using chlorine first, 60% polyquat second (though others here will tell you that the poly is better as a preventative and not very good as a remedy), and copper based algaecides not at all. There are other opinions here, but I think that's a fair summary of the party line.

Once again, I thank all of you for the great education. You people are the best!

Judy

Hope this helps.

[jnorris]

OK, back again! Here's my second set of numbers (about 5 days later):

CL 2.0 (was 2.0 before)
TC 2.0 (2.0 before)
PH 8.2 (7.6 before - YIKES!)
TA 120 (80 before - PB added baking soda to raise)
CYA 40 (30 before - time to get rid of the sticks!)

What could have made my PH go up? I was under the impression that baking soda would raise TA without raising PH. When I did the acid demand test, 1 drop was needed to bring the color back down to the 7.6 color. According to the chart in the test kit, I need to add 1 pint of muriatic acid. Is it OK to wait until tomorrow to do this? I'm having people over swimming today, and I'm a little leary of adding acid to the water my child is going to be swimming in a few hours from now.

Also re: PH, yesterday we had about 2.5 inches of rain. My understanding was that our rain was slightly acidic. The pump ran all night, so I feel like the rain water would be mixed in well by now. I'm wondering what my PH would have been without the rain!

Other than taking out the sticks, stocking up on bleach, and adding the muriatic acid, is there anything else I should be doing? I'm going to try to get my CL level up to 3 to 6 ppm. How long after I add bleach should I wait to test? Also, I'm going out of town for a week next weekend, so I guess it will be alright to put the sticks back in for that?

Judy

[KurtV]

OK, back again! Here's my second set of numbers (about 5 days later):

CL 2.0 (was 2.0 before)
TC 2.0 (2.0 before)
PH 8.2 (7.6 before - YIKES!)
TA 120 (80 before - PB added baking soda to raise)
CYA 40 (30 before - time to get rid of the sticks!)

What could have made my PH go up? I was under the impression that baking soda would raise TA without raising PH. When I did the acid demand test, 1 drop was needed to bring the color back down to the 7.6 color. According to the chart in the test kit, I need to add 1 pint of muriatic acid.
The pH in many pools just seems to consistently rise or fall without any known reason. Testing regularly (like daily for chlorine and pH and at least monthly for CYA, CH, and alkalinity) will give you a feel for the trends in your pool.

Is it OK to wait until tomorrow to do this? I'm having people over swimming today, and I'm a little leary of adding acid to the water my child is going to be swimming in a few hours from now.
You can probably wait until tomorrow but there's really no need to. Keep you filter pump running and distribute the acid around the pool in small amounts and it will almost instantly be diluted to safe levels. You can also pre-dilute that acid in a bucket (always add acid to water) to speed up the dilution (though I think that's probably overkill).

Also re: PH, yesterday we had about 2.5 inches of rain. My understanding was that our rain was slightly acidic. The pump ran all night, so I feel like the rain water would be mixed in well by now. I'm wondering what my PH would have been without the rain!
That's a bit of a puzzler. Rain does generally (maybe even always?) have a low pH (something in the neighborhood of 5, I believe). But, like I said above, many pools just tend to have a rising pH. If you're using bleach it does tend to cause pH to rise, but I don't think it would account for all of your increase. It may be a combination of things, including that.

It's great that you're paying attention to the trends and thinking about how outside factors such as rain will influence your water chemistry. If you keep testing and keeping an eye on it, you'll probably solve the puzzle eventually.

Other than taking out the sticks, stocking up on bleach, and adding the muriatic acid, is there anything else I should be doing?
Nothing I can think of.

I'm going to try to get my CL level up to 3 to 6 ppm. How long after I add bleach should I wait to test?
At least a couple of hours.

Also, I'm going out of town for a week next weekend, so I guess it will be alright to put the sticks back in for that?
If you're only going to be gone a couple of days you can probably just run your chlorine up to 8 or so ppm with bleach and be OK. If it's going to be much longer you may have to use the sticks. If you do, monitor the CYA level diligently.

Judy

Keep up the good work.

[brent.roberts]

Kurt has been giving you good advice.

One or two comments. First, the risk of adding the acid a few hours before use is almost zero. In fact I would encourage you to do this.( from the time of your post this morning I am guessing however that the kids are in the water already. )

I think the higher PH might cause them a bit more eye irritation and outweigh the concern about the acid.

Many poolstore educated folks have been taught to shock once a week to the point that it now borders on an urban myth. My guess is that it came about because folks would not "keep ahead of thier water" and maintain good levels of chlorine and see the tell-tale rise in CC. So the safe thing to tell everyone was to shock once a week. I shocked mine only once last summer when I had neglected it a bit. My pool is a bit smaller than yours but treating it because almost automatic after a few weeks. Half a gallon of bleach every other day. A pint of muriatic once a week. Done deal. Just test the PH and CH levels every day and you'll get the hang of it soon enough From you postings you've got the right attitude.

CYA, TA, and Cal don't need anything like daily testing.

One more thing. Almost every chlrine tab or stick feeder cannot be turned completely off. I think Ben recommends one on his poolsolutions.com site ( Rainbow if I recall correctly) that is the only one that can be shut off completely. Watch you sticks when it's set to off and I think you'll see that they keep disappearing very slowly.

Cal Hypo granules will almost always sink to the bottom before they dissolve. There they can damage a vinyl liner. PB is right. Add it to the skimmer or pre-dissolve it in a pail and pore in the solution. By the way make sure the auto chlorinator is off before adding to the skimmer !!!

Good luck.

[waterbear]

One more: PB said in this area, most pools end up with mustard algae at some point in the summer. He recommended that I call him when this happens, and he will come out and put in a copper algaecide that is made a special way so that the copper won't come out of the suspension and damage the liner. Does this make sense? I asked him about using polyquat, but he said the copper stuff works better.

Judy
Chelated copper (that is what your PB was referring to) can and will come out of suspension and deposit in your pool or filter. It just does it at a slower rate. This can be verified by montoring the copper level in the water by testing. It will ususlly fall within a period of about 3 months or so. Where did the copper go? It deposited in your pool, filter,and pipes as a stain that can redissolve under the right conditions (and make your water turn green)! Non chelated copper will come out of solution very quickly by comparison, usually within days or weeks. Copper IS effective at controlling algae but, IMHO, is not the best choice for several reasons which are really too technical to get into here.
check out this thread for some more info
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=98

IMHO, polyquat is a much better choice.
I would bet the reason that 'most pools in your area end up with a mustard problem' is because the pool owners are not keeping tabs on their pool chemisty or relying too much on bad pool store advice (like 'just put another trichlor tab in your floater and open it up a bit more to make sure your chlorine is at 3 ppm' when their CYA is already at 90 ppm!).
IF you keep on top of your pool and have proper FC for your level of CYA chances are you will not have an algae problem.

Several people on this board do add polyquat as a preventative and that is fine if you decide to to that.

[jnorris]

I just want to say how much I appreciate all the great advice and words of encouragement. When we decided to put in the pool, I knew I would be the one doing the work, since my husband works out of state and is gone alot. I started reading these boards, but all the technical stuff was really scary, and I was beginning to think I would have to hire a pool service. Now I am confident I can do this, as long as I have the help of all of you experts! Thanks for all the help!

Judy