Dual Speed or a Variable Speed for a plain Jane pool.

[Lip Out]

Hello all, I have read many posts from this forum that has helped me quite a bit. So thanks.

Its that time of year (taxes) and we are trying to make responsible decisions this time. :) We have an old pool, it has an old cast Purex pump and impeller. It's so old that every time I take parts in to the pool store they have no idea what it is and they can't find it in any of the parts catalogs. In the last 2 years I have replaced the motor and had to replace the capacitor from that new motor as well. It now has a small leak behind the motor somewhere so instead of trying to fix it, we have decided to get a new pump.

Our goal this time is to get a pump that will save us $$$ every month/year. We have been reading a lot about the VS pumps but it seems to me that it may be overkill for our pool.

So my question is, what would be ideal for our pool? VS speed or Dual or just get another single speed?

Like I said, we have an old plain Jane pool. It is a 10,000 to 12,000 gallons. It has a 2" suction line from the pool and a 2" from the spa. The return lines are 1 1/2". We have a DE filter as well. Currently we have a 2HP motor.

We would really appreciate any help with this matter. We are lost.

Thanks,

Chris

[PoolDoc]

I'll ask Mark to take a look.

Most likely, a VFD motor could reduce your operating costs quite a bit. A 2HP pump, running full on, is way more circulation than you need for your pool, and is probably sized so it can also run the jets in your spa. There's a good chance you'll only gain the maximum from your refit if you ALSO optimize the valving and controls on your pool / spa switching.

Mark (and others) will be able to do a MUCH better job if you'll send photos, so they can see how your piping is laid out. If you'll send them to poolforum@gmail.com, I'll post them so all can see.

[mas985]

The savings you will get from a two speed or VS speed pump and which pump would be better for you depends on several factors so I have a few questions first:


How long do you currently run your pump?

What is your current pump pressure?

How high above/below is the pump relative to the water level ?

How far is it from the pump to the pool?

What do you pay in electrical costs $/kwh

Does your energy company offer any rebates for VS or two speed pumps?

[Lip Out]

I'll try to get some tonight, but will probably be tomorrow. Thanks.

[Lip Out]

The savings you will get from a two speed or VS speed pump and which pump would be better for you depends on several factors so I have a few questions first:


How long do you currently run your pump?

What is your current pump pressure?

How high above/below is the pump relative to the water level ?

How far is it from the pump to the pool?

What do you pay in electrical costs $/kwh

Does your energy company offer any rebates for VS or two speed pumps?

I run it for 4 hours every night (per the direction of a friend that is a pool guy).

When the DE is fresh it is at 10-12 psi.

The pump sits on grade level. So i would say just a few inches, 8" tops.

The pump is 20'-22' away from the pool.

We have 3 rates, but since I run it at midnight it is $0.103500/kwh.

They do offer a rebate, $200.

Chris

[mas985]

Here are my estimates,

Current Setup:

1.8 Turnovers/day
200 kwh/month
$21/month


Two Speed Pump (WFDS-24):

1.8 Turnovers/day - 30 minutes on high & 6.5 hours on low
99 kwh/month
$10.24/month


Intelliflo:

1.8 Turnovers/day - 30 minutes @ 2700 RPM & 9 hours @ 1000 RPM
61 kwh/month
$6.36/month


So either pump would save you energy costs and the Intelliflo a little more. You could also save even more if you reduced the runtime to one turnover per day.

Given there is a rebate for the Intelliflo and you can find one with a timer for less than $900, it probably makes more sense to go with the Intelliflo.

[Lip Out]

Wow Mark, thanks. I sent some pictures over to the email provided above. Hopefully the plumbing will work with the Intelliflo.

Is there a website that you folks recommend over others for quality, customer service and price?

again thanks.

[PoolDoc]

Your photos:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7vF9XdWeXJA/T16kL-xnX6I/AAAAAAAABpE/lpeVoXIp80g/s800/2012-03-12%252017.26.11%2520web1.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WjbdZNGpfZw/T16kv15RgaI/AAAAAAAABpc/PW4yMXqjQNk/s800/2012-03-12%252017.26.38%2520web.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-thsgrfvhWgM/T16kwPi7qmI/AAAAAAAABpk/OA07v4ZljT4/s800/2012-03-12%252017.26.23%2520web.jpg

[Lip Out]

Thanks Ben. I plan on redoing the plumbing and electrical this spring. Is there anything that anybody sees that I should change or add? I am not to sure what that 1" or 1 1/4" is that is capped of. I assume it is for a threaded outlet on the inside of the pool on the side that does nothing right now, but not sure what is supposed to do.

[PoolDoc]

Mark's already started; I'm going to let him work with you on the details if that's OK.

[mas985]

The capped line was probably a pressure side cleaner line at one time. They may have capped it off because it was leaking so if you want to make that active again, I would pressure test the line first to make sure there isn't a leak.

It looks like whomever plumbed the heater took some short cuts. You could fix this pretty easily by dropping the 3-way valve to the same the level as the heater exit so you could eliminate a 90 and the coupler but you would probably need a new 3-way valve to upsize the branch line. This could be a future project at some point since it is completely independent of the pump and I would only redo it if you plan on plumbing in the cleaner line.

As for the pump, the replumb should be fairly simple and you have enough line after the suction side 3-way so you shouldn't need to touch that. Just make sure you use at least 2" line on the pressure side, replace all the pipe from the pump to the filter, and it looks like the suction side may be 2.5" so carry that through the suction side if possible.

Also, do you have a spa? That would change the two speed choice if you decide to go that route. Otherwise the Intelliflo would handle that fairly well.

[Lip Out]

It looks like whomever plumbed the heater took some short cuts. You could fix this pretty easily by dropping the 3-way valve to the same the level as the heater exit so you could eliminate a 90 and the coupler but you would probably need a new 3-way valve to upsize the branch line. This could be a future project at some point since it is completely independent of the pump and I would only redo it if you plan on plumbing in the cleaner line.

As for the pump

Hey Mark, I have a few questions again. When you say they took short cuts and I should lower and remove the 90*, is that because (on the pressure side) the more 90*s you have you lose pressure? Or are the short cuts more extensive.

I went out and measured the pipe again. The suction side is 2". The pressure side to the spa (I believe it goes to the spa) is 2". The pressure side to the pool is 1.5". Maybe be vice/versa. Those are going in to the ground. Will the 1.5" be an issue when plumbing for the Intelliflo? Also, it has 1.5" going to the filter. I have never looked under there, will I be able to take 2" to the bottom of that type of DE filter?

When I re-plumb this I want to do this in one shot. So, I was looking around for some plumbing schematics, and I believe this one will work. I am correct in my thinking? If it is, what is the purpose of having 2 valves for the spa, especially the "Spa Make-up" valve before the check valve? What is the purpose of having the 2 directional valves for the Spa?

http://www.poolcenter.com/images/jandy_plumbing_diagram_pg4.jpg

Thanks again for the help.

[PoolDoc]

I need to publish some guidelines for use of images from other sites . . . but I'm pretty sure PoolCenter considers us competition, and would not want us using their image without attribution.

Sorry!

(I'm pretty twitchy about this, at the moment, having found "Leaking Pools" in Florida TOTALLY ripping off my name and logo:
http://leakingpools.com/about/ . I'm filing a DMCA takedown request against them today, and do NOT want to be on the receiving end of such a request myself!)

[mas985]

Hey Mark, I have a few questions again. When you say they took short cuts and I should lower and remove the 90*, is that because (on the pressure side) the more 90*s you have you lose pressure? Or are the short cuts more extensive.
By lowering the valve, you can remove a 90, the union coupling and the short section of smaller pipe between the valve and the union. But like I said, it is not that critical so if you want to skip that part, no big deal. The combination of all three things has an impact but nothing that would cause a problem.



I went out and measured the pipe again. The suction side is 2". The pressure side to the spa (I believe it goes to the spa) is 2". The pressure side to the pool is 1.5". Maybe be vice/versa. Those are going in to the ground. Will the 1.5" be an issue when plumbing for the Intelliflo? Also, it has 1.5" going to the filter. I have never looked under there, will I be able to take 2" to the bottom of that type of DE filter?.
Just keep the 2" to the pump and use all 2" pipe to the filter where you can use a 2" to 1.5" threaded adapter if that is what the filter requires.



When I re-plumb this I want to do this in one shot. So, I was looking around for some plumbing schematics, and I believe this one will work. I am correct in my thinking? If it is, what is the purpose of having 2 valves for the spa, especially the "Spa Make-up" valve before the check valve? What is the purpose of having the 2 directional valves for the Spa?

This is really only needed when you have automation that does not support a timed spillover feature control but I think most controllers do now. A purely manual setup would not require the Spa makeup feature. The valving has two purposes. In pool mode, the extra valve allows for either a spa spillover feature and/or to fill the spa back up if the level should drop. If you are planning to go with a full controller including the actuators, then you might want to decide on the controller first before settling on the valving.

Ben, that configuration drawing actually came from Jandy (now Zodiac) originally and since there are no copyright markings, I would assume that it is ok to post at least the link.

[PoolDoc]

Y'all be VERY careful to distinguish 2" PVC (2.5" OD) from 1.5" PVC (2" OD).

Lip Out can NOT measure the ID without cutting the pipe -- if his 2" pipe is a *measured* 2" OD, then it's 1.5" PVC pipe.

[mas985]

Good point. I assumed Lipout took that into consideration. For Schedule 40 pipe, here are the dimensions:

Pipe Size and Water Velocity
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_3ygEsKTkDA/TsrzpjoGW3I/AAAAAAAAAfs/baR24WMLMbw/s800/Pipes.jpg

[PoolDoc]

I'm not saying he didn't, but when dealing with consumers (as opposed to mechanics & trades people) you have to generally assume that when they say 'I measured and it was 2"' that means it actually measured 2", not that it was 2.375" and nominally 2".

It really gets bad when you get into situations which mix plumbing sizes and HVAC sizes. For example, a 1/8" threaded by 1/4" flare ell . . . is the same pipe or tubing size on both sides of the ell! Because years ago, I did mechanical repairs for a variety of full service restaurants and bars in Chattanooga, I was always into projects with mixed sizes like that. (I was licensed as a master plumber.)

[Lip Out]

I need to publish some guidelines for use of images from other sites . . . but I'm pretty sure PoolCenter considers us competition, and would not want us using their image without attribution.

Sorry!

(I'm pretty twitchy about this, at the moment, having found "Leaking Pools" in Florida TOTALLY ripping off my name and logo:
http://leakingpools.com/about/ . I'm filing a DMCA takedown request against them today, and do NOT want to be on the receiving end of such a request myself!)
Sorry about that Ben. I'm pretty comfortable with the conduit sizes. I am an electrician, so I know what to look for with pipes. But thanks for the heads up.

Mark, thanks so much for the help. Just about answers all my questions. I will try to post pics when I am done with everything.