Chlorine confusion

[GregP]

have read several post regarding water testing and chlorine but in regards to the old saying "knowledge is power" has ultimately led to confusion.
Let me start with the basics: I live in NW PA which has a relatively short swimming period. I purchased a pool last year that is a 24' x 54" pool running a Hayward Powerflow Matrix 1hp combined with a Hayward Perflex Extended Cycle DE filter. I had originally used Chlorinating granules but had decided to switch to a chlorine feeder and Trichlor tablets because I thought it would provide a stable chlorine level (and I wouldn't have to mess around with the solar cover when adding the granules). This sound good in my head but this is where the problems started. I could never get the chloine feeder adjusted properly it seems like the chlorine levels would drop (using my cheap test kit which I will be purchasing the recommended Taylor) and the feeder would be plugged? Then the algae started which took 2 months to control and with numerous trips to the pool store and countless recommended products got me to close the pool for the winter and forget about it for a while.
My CYA level from the pool store computerized test was 80ppm but I never added any and used 8 Trichlor tabs before I switched back to the granules.
So I guess my question is: What is the best route for chlorine - Trichlor, granules, or liquid? The pool store told me to only use their brand of chlorine instead of Sams club. They told me that is why the feeder was plugging? So I am at a loss and was ready to sell the pool last year. I would appreciate any help from somebody who just wants to sell me products.
I actually have another question. How long should the pump run per day? I originally ran it 24 hours a day which in turn killed my electric bill. Installed a timer and ran the pump 2 hours a day 4 times a day. This I believe helped contribute to my algae problem. So what is a happy medium? I guess I would rather ay the electric bill then deal with algae.
Thank you in advance for any help.
Greg

[Watermom]

Hi Greg and welcome to the Pool Forum. With a CYA of 80ppm, I wouldn't use any form of stabilized chlorine or else your CYA will continue to rise. You are already on the high side. Trichlor tabs and dichlor granules are both stabilized. I would suggest using either liquid pool store chlorine or just use plain, unscented household bleach which is what many of us on the forum use. Neither add CYA. Get the Taylor K-2006 and run a complete set of numbers and let someone here have a look.

Regarding pump run time --- typically 8-10 hours per day is adequate. You might do it in two 4 to 5 hour cycles.

I think your algae problems have more to do with high CYA and low chlorine levels than your pump run time. With high CYA, you need more chlorine. Take a look at the Best Guess Chlorine Chart in my signature below for more info about that.

Again, welcome. Hope you enjoy the forum

[PoolDoc]

Hi Greg;

Your pump run time was fine -- given that you had a DE filter. However, because a DE filter will remove algal spores and early algal growth, it will tend to stall algae development longer if you run it 24/7. But, if you maintain an adequate chlorine levels, 8 hours of DE filter run time is plenty . . . with clear water. Just remember that whenever you're having problems, you need to switch to 24/7 run times.

You can not trust pool store testing, ESPECIALLY when it's based on strips. Strip based testing is NEVER trustworthy. Titration and color match testing may, or may not be trustworthy, depending on the store. But, since you don't know, you're right back at not being able to trust the stores!

Buy a cheap OTO/phenol red test kit from Walmart or wherever, but ALSO, if you can afford it, buy a K2006 FAS-DPD testing. Right now, to fix you up, we need to know your CYA (stabilizer) level.

Also, any time you are low on chlorine, and need to raise it quickly, just add plain unscented 6% bleach. Assuming a 25' round with 48" water depth at ~13,500 gallons, one gallon of 6% bleach will add about 4 ppm of chlorine to your pool.

The trichlor from Sams is perfectly fine -- your dealer is either ignorant or dishonest. The dichlor at Sams is also fine, and unlike most pool store dichlor is both very cheap (below wholesale) and un-diluted. But, we need to know your CYA level, before you go get a bunch of chlorine with stabilizer in it.

If you can, get a K2006, and test your CYA. You can use the Amazon order link in my signature, if you like. If you can't afford one (~$70 for the 3/4 oz size or ~$110 for the 2oz size) take your water samples to several different stores, and see if you can find a store that will test your CYA with something besides a test strip.

By the way, with bleach, a DE filter like you have, and our instructions, you should be able to clean up any algae problems in a week or less!

[aylad]

Just a side note--before buying trichlor tabs from Sam's, check the ingredient label and make sure that it does not list any form of copper in the ingredients. The trichlor tabs at WalMart DO contain copper, so it wouldn't surprise me to find it in Sam's tabs, either. If you find copper listed as an ingredient, look elsewhere for your tabs--not because the chlorine is any different, but because you don't want to introduce copper into your pool. That's what causes green staining of liners, hair, and fingernails!

Janet

[PoolDoc]

Thanks Janet!

I'm so sick of trying to keep with all the ways Arch and Biolab/Chemtura keep screwing around with the basic chemicals to try to jack up the price and mess up the pool chemistry!

[aylad]

I'm so sick of trying to keep with all the ways Arch and Biolab/Chemtura keep screwing around with the basic chemicals to try to jack up the price and mess up the pool chemistry!

All the better to confuse you with, my dear!!!! :)

Life would be SO much easier if you could just buy "chlorine" without having to worry about "what kind"!!!

Janet

[waterbear]

All the better to confuse you with, my dear!!!! :)

Life would be SO much easier if you could just buy "chlorine" without having to worry about "what kind"!!!

Janet
Another reason to use bleach!

[PoolDoc]

Interestingly, I've recently discovered that MANY pool stores tell users that "bleach is only 3% chlorine", so the games don't end there!

[GregP]

Thank you for all of your help. I am going to order the Taylor 2006 kit through the provided links when the this wonderful weather in PA normalizes. Only in Erie can you see all 4 seasons in one day. I will post a set of numbers once I get the pool opened. With all of the rain that we have gotten this winter, I have had to pump the pool levels down 4 times so far so the higher CYA level that I had should be more than diluted by now.

I definitely like the bleach idea, because the pool store talked me into $6.00 gallon liquid pool chlorine to help with the algae problems. I guess learning empties out the wallet.

The Sams clun Trichor did have "trace" amounts of copper in it but the manufacture would not disclose exactly how much when I called them, but the good thing is that Sams allowed me to return it with no questions asked.

I wish I would have stumbled across this site last year. Keep up the good work.

Thanks,
Greg

[PoolDoc]

Sams Club chlorine has copper? Darn, darn, darn!

I'm going to check my local club tomorrow.

[GregP]

Sams club chlorine brand has it just listed as inert ingredients. I called the company for the MSDS to find out exactly what the inert ingredients were and they were the ones that said copper was added, but that it was in small amounts. They never did provide me with the MSDS like I asked.

Greg

[PoolDoc]

Sorry I never followed up on this. It took me a few days to collect the data, and I just never got back here.

Sams's Club is selling the "Pool Brand" brand of pool chemicals through out much (maybe, all?) of the USA. There are 3 products in this like that are a GOOD deal.
1. The 50# bucket dichlor powder is often being sold BELOW wholesale (at least, below the wholesale prices that apply outside of Florida and California). Here, it's about $2/llb
2. The bagged shock (12 or 24) is pure dichlor and is HARD to find. It's also at a good price.
3. The 40# bucket of trichlor is also pure, and an EXCELLENT price.

If copper is present, I'm pretty sure it MUST be a listed ingredient on the container.

They also have 2 gallons of 40% linear quat algacide for under $30, I believe. Do NOT use this during swim season. But if you've got a sludged pool, it may be worth trying as a first cleanup step.

[CarlD]

Hi Greg! How did it turn out?
$6/gal liquid chlorine is the equivalent of $3/gal 6% bleach. In my area, pool stores sell 5 gal carboys of the stuff for about $17. Yes, you must make a deposit of $6/carboy, and you'll need a $4 spigot, but that's a one-time investment to get the equivalent of $1.70/gal bleach. When you need a new carboy you give them the empty instead of a deposit. The spigot lasts for years. I must have my 3 carboys 6 or 7 years now, exchanging them when needed.

Liquid Chlorine is usually nominally rated at 12%, basically double the strength of 6%. That just means half the amount has the same effect. Sometimes it tests higher, occasionally lower (especially if it's old). So...if it costs less than double what a gallon of 6% ("Ultra") bleach costs in your area it's a good buy. If it costs more, it is not. $6 is just too much.

Do check that best-guess table. If you cannot get the Taylor K-2006 or K-2006C test kit there are a few reasonably good alternatives (that also use FAS-DPD testing) that are the equivalent, plus some "Plan B" alternatives you can use if you cannot get the Taylor or alternative.

[GregP]

Thanks for the information. I still don't have the pool opened up yet. In PA lately one day it is 80 degrees and the next there is a hard frost. I want to get it up and running hopefully in the next couple of weeks. My pool store carries the liquid chlorine, but I do not know the strength or price. I gave up on the pucks and chlorinator, it is not worth the problems and hassle that I had with it.
In reading PoolDoc's reply, if the Dichlor and Trichlor is "pure", then is it free of CYA?
Thanks
Greg

[PoolDoc]

In reading PoolDoc's reply, if the Dichlor and Trichlor is "pure", then is it free of CYA?

No -- if it was, then it wouldn't be dichlor or trichlor. "Pure", in this context, just means, "not blended with other goop".