New endless pool user water treatment

[Proth]

Hello,

I am the proud new owner of a Elite endless pool, and I have issue about water treatment.
The installer first shocked the water with chlorine, and both my wife and myself are allergic to chlorine and bromine.
After the chlorine worked its way out of the pool, we used Baquacil for water treatment.
I got everything under control, PH, Alkalinity, Hardness is good. Now Endless pool tells me that Baquacil will destroy any clear plastic part of the system (i.e. UV filter encasement ...)
Has anyone used Baquacil for a long period of time with an endless pool, and if so have you had problems with it?
We also heard about Clear choice for water treatment, but we would rather not have to drain our pool to change to Clear Choice.
Thanks in advance for any input!

[aylad]

Hello Proth, and welcome to the forum!

You are going to find very, very few Baq users around this forum. The vast majority of Baq users find us when they finally get tired of throwing money, energy, and time into a pool that they just can't get cleared up, and come to us for help with making the change back to chlorine. You can use the Google search function linked in my sig to search the forum for Baq posts, but just don't be surprised if you have trouble finding what you're looking for.

When you say that both you and your wife are allergic to chlorine, what exactly do you mean? Most people who have what they think are chlorine allergies are actually having reactions to an imbalance with the water--pH out of range, excess chloramines from not chlorinating adequately, etc. Are you able to drink tap water? Or shower in it? If so, I would encourage you to rethink chlorine as a sanitizer for your pool. If it's done correctly, there are very, very few people who actually cannot tolerate it.

[PoolDoc]

The answers to your questions are long and complex.

The whole "I'm allergic to chlorine" issue comes up regularly, if not frequently, so I'm writing a pretty extended response that we can reuse for the rest of the season, but I'll make some quick comments:

1. Baquacil itself (PHMB, biguanide) is harmless to pools, but the hydrogen peroxide shock WILL damage polycarbonate (ie, clear plastic) components. You either have to replace those components with a resistant plastic, like PVC, or stop using the Baquacil system.

2. Clear Choice is bogus. I'll cover that in detail in the longer response.

3. If your water company is North Coast County Water district, and you take showers in their water, you do not have a chlorine allergy . . . or even much of a chlorine sensitivity. They report shipping water with 2ppm of monochloramine, which is fairly irritating -- FAR more irritating than 2ppm free chlorine.

I'm not saying you're not reacting to SOMETHING -- I'm just saying, whatever it is, it's not simple chlorine. You may want to look at this page, from the American College of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology: Chlorine Allergy - Reality or Myth? (http://www.acaai.org/allergist/allergies/Types/other-allergies/Pages/chlorine-allergy.aspx)

Your options really come down to these 4:

1. You continue to use Baquacil, but replace the vulnerable components. We don't support PHMB use, here. We're not opposed to it -- we just don't provide support.

2. You could do a UV + peroxide + polyquat system. You'd get fabulous water quality. But it would be expensive, high maintenance, and you'd STILL have to replace the clear plastic. I'm the only person I know who's done such a system; I know other people have as well, but I don't know who they are. So, you can count on them being hard to find, and expensive.

3. You use chlorine correctly (NOT the way most dealers teach). You will likely discover that whatever was causing the problem, is not present in a CORRECTLY maintained chlorine pool.
We CAN support you then; that's what we do here.

4. You can use one of the copper / silver mineral products with monopersulfate. So long as ONLY your family uses the pool, AND none of them have a transmissible disease that could infect the rest of the family, AND no one has blond hair . . . you'll probably be OK. Those systems can prevent most pathogens from GROWING in pool or spa water. But they do not act quickly enough to protect you against pathogens that enter the water in, or on, the body of another swimmer, which is how MOST disease transmission in pools and spas occur. We definitely do not provide support for the use of those products.

[waterbear]

There are only 3 EPA approved sanitizers for pools (there is a 4th one for spas heated to 100-104 degrees).
They are:
Chlorine
Bromine (not really suitable for outdoor pools or uncovered outdoor spas since it cannot be stabilized against loss from sunlight)
Biguanide/peroxide such as Baquacil and SoftSwim (expensive, and eventually bacteria develop a resistance to it and you start getting outbreaks of 'pink slime' and 'white water mold' both bacterial biofilms. The cure for these biofilms is to drain, sanitize everything with a HIGH dose of chlorine, and start over. As Ben said, Biguanide systems do destroy plastic parts and often void warranties.
If you have a spa that is always kept at high temperature then there is a 4th EPA approved sanitizer:
Silver/MPS/hot water such as Nature 2 Spa (the Nature 2 Pool is a different animal since it contains copper and is not an EPA approved sanitizer unless used in conjunction with chlorine) or SilSpa.

For what it's worth, a true allergy to chlorine is very rare and most people who thing they have one don't. Bromine is more of a sensitizer but many people who think they are allergic to bromine are actually allergic to the MPS commonly used as an oxidizer with bromine. MPS is a persulfate and many people do have sulfate allergy.

[PoolDoc]

Waterbear, I'm not sure that there are any allergies to "sulfates" (=SO4).

There are definitely allergies to "sulfa" based antibiotics, and there are people who are allergic to "sulfites" (=SO3), and there are even allergic reactions to certain antibiotics, like "neomycin sulfate". But, an allergy to "neomycin sulfate" is not a "sulfate" allergy, any more than an allergy to "doxycycline hydrochloride" is a hydrochloride (HCl) allergy.

However, there are numerous medically reported cases of allergies to "persulfates" such as =SO5 or =S2O8 .

The distinction matters, since the commonly used "Dry Acid" or "pH Minus" is sodium hydrogen sulfate, but is NOT an allergen. However, the often promoted potassium monopersulfate, apparently IS a potential allergen, though possibly not at pool usage levels. The DuPont Oxone MSDS, dated in 2000 (archived at thread 14395), reports

Skin contact with the product may cause allergic skin reactions in sensitive individuals. Human patch tests with the product diluted in water at concentrations up to 150 ppm did not cause allergic skin reaction.

However DuPont's May 2011 Canadian SDS does NOT report this reaction. So, I'm not sure that MPS (generic Oxone) would be safe to use in the case of individuals who had already been sensitized to persulfate by the persulfate-based denture cleaners. But it sounds like an allergic reaction is unlikely unless you are ALREADY sensitiized.

[waterbear]

Yes, I meant persulfate, it was a typo. There have been reported cases of allergic reations to denture cleaners (which are basically MPS) which the FDA has issued alerts on, and also people that have problems in bromine santized spas where MPS is the primary oxidizer. Also, ammonium persulfate used in hair bleach can cause allergic reactions including asthma so it seems the persulfates as a group are allergic sensitizers (have had actual experience with this since I am a licensed barber and cosmetologist for going on 40 years now and worked most of that professional career as a colorist and instructor, and although I have not worked in a salon or barber/beauty school for about 15 years now I keep both licenses current and active and take contiuining education courses in both fields to stay current.)

It would seem logical that there would be cross sensitization among the various persulfates since that does occur with other allergens but I do not know for sure.

[Proth]

Thanks to everyone for all the advice.
We ended up draining our pool, and refilling it.
We are now using a nature 2 cartridge, and will leave the free chlorine level to 0.5 ppm as recommended by endless pool. We also have a UV filter.
I understand that most people are actually allergic to the Chloramine.
I was a swimmer for 15 years, and I spent about 4 hours a day in a pool. I always had a stuffed up nose because of some kind of allergic reaction. Most likely to Chloramine which back in the 70s and 80s must have been out of control in public pools.
Thanks again for your insight in all of this!

[PoolDoc]

If you swam for 15 years, up to 4 hours per day, you must have been pretty good!

My sons (16 and 25) both swim, but my 16 year old saw what my 25 year old went through, and decided that was not for him. So, they both swim Masters. They're trying to get back into the routine, which got 'busted' when the 25 year old got married in November. They swam this morning, and both were dead after. Of course, the Master's group in Chattanooga includes some former almost Olympians, so it's a pretty fast bunch.

But . . . the situation in the 70's is the reverse of what you think.

The old pools mostly had 100% outside air on their heating system, whereas in the late 80's newer 'better' pools were built with recirculating dehumidification systems that trapped the volatile chlorinated organics inside the natatorium. My 25 year old was a distance swimmer AND an asthmatic -- his best mile times ALL came on OLD indoor pools. I think his all-time best mile was at the OLD UT-Knoxville pool. He swam there the year before they opened the new one. And, he never had good times in the 'state of the art' Tracy Caulkins pool in Nashville. In fact, we finally gave up on the multi-day championship meets held at that pool. As you know, the distance swims are often scheduled last, and by then the air was so bad he was just wasting the effort.

Regarding Nature2 -- watch out for their recommendations to use MPS. As noted by Waterbear, that stuff DOES trigger reactions in quite a few people.