Another humming pump...........

[aylad]

Haven't turned the pump on in my pool for a couple of weeks, but decided to shock it yesterday before it goes completely green (too cold to swim anymore this season). Hums, nothing else. :( Tried the 2 x 4 trick, doesn't make a difference. Took the pump part of it apart, nothing wrong that I could feel or see. Brother is coming to look at the motor part, see what he can do. Hoping he can figure it out, and soon, as it goes greener by the day.....at least I have a bunch of bleach ready for it when he gets it working again! :)

[AnnaK]

Hope it's fixable and you don't have to buy a new one.

You could just pour some bleach in now and mix it in with the brush or leaf net.

[aylad]

Yeah, I did that, but I really need my filter..........I hope he can fix it, too. :(

Janet

[waste]

Hey, Jan. Sorry the pump's not working!

Can you remind me of the model of your pump?

The first thing for you or your bro to check is that the shaft spins freely. If it doesn't, see if you can get it to spin, the motor might be louder than usual, but should work.

Let us know if the shaft can be manually turned - I'm thinking either the bearings are shot or the start capacitor is. Also, I would listen to any advice Al has to give on this!

[aylad]

It's an A.O Smith 1 HP pump. I have taken the whole assembly apart except for the motor itself--I don't know enough to be comfortable taking that part apart--and everything outside the motor appears to work fine. I'm going to look up an old post of mine and edit this one with the link about the impeller, but if I'm mistaken the impeller on this pump isn't supposed to turn. If that's true, should I be able to turn the shaft from the outside of the motor? There's a part of the shaft that sticks out a few inches from the motor that the impeller screws onto. Should that part turn?

Janet

Edit: Here's the thread from last year that describes the impeller situation--specifically my post #9. I think this motor is now about 4 years old. http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?10373-Pump-still-running-but-no-longer-moving-water...&highlight=replacing+impeller

[Watermom]

I just chided Al for not seeing this post from you! Hopefully he'll pop on soon!

[waste]

Yes, the shaft should freely turn. If it doesn't, it's probably the bearings that got wet last year when your impeller snapped off. Did you change the shaft seal assembly when you replaced the impeller?

If not, I'll 'double down' on my guess that the bearings need to be repacked. (for everyone's edification: when you change out an impeller, it's best to replace the shaft seal assembly as well- it's another $10- 20 but, the seals are prone to failure once removed and can/ will leak, which puts the bearings and other motor components in jeopardy of failing or seizing up).

I hope Al will clarify things for me ( I don't always express myself properly on the 'nuts and bolts/ physics' part of repairing things)

[aylad]

I'm almost positive that we did change the seal assembly at that time, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. I do remember replacing one set of seals but not sure if it was between the pump/motor or the motor and housing. But when we replaced the impeller shaft, we never had to open up the motor itself--the part that broke off was outside the motor, does that make sense? I wish I still had my pics but they were on my phone and got erased in the last backup glitch. I think I emailed them to Al, maybe he'll still have them. I have to work tomorrow, but maybe Monday I'll have a chance to open it up again and see whether the shaft spins or not. My brother hasn't had a chance to get out here yet, looks like I may have to call a pro if I have any hope of getting it done before it actually gets cold out......

Janet

[Poconos]

Hi Jan,
Ted is right on so far. If the shaft is seized then you will hear a real loud hum and after some short time the thermal breaker will open. That's located in the back of the motor where the wires enter. With a seized shaft the motor pulls a lot of current. If the shaft turns freely and the hum is a low level then there are two possibilities. One the starting capacitor has opened or two, the starting switch contacts are really crummy. That 2x4 trick may or may not work. It won't if the contacts are really bad.
Gotta run....back later.
Al
More: Smacking the motor will sometimes shock the switch contacts enough to make contact. If the shaft turns freely and the hum is loud then probably the starting capacitor is shorted.
Al

[aylad]

okay, status on my pump (we won't talk about the Mountain Dew colored pool at this point! )

The impeller was seized up, but some working back and forth freed it up and now it's working with no problem. Put the pump back together, it makes all the right noises and works fine--except now it's leaking like crazy. When I first put it back together, there was a small leak from underneath the motor where it meets the housing. Took it back apart, repositioned the gasket between the motor and the housing, and put it back together-- it still works, but now is leaking worse. Thought maybe I put the gasket back in the wrong place, but there is a channel for it there and I can't imagine any other way to put it on. Anyway, everytime I take it apart and put it back together, the leak gets worse and worse.

Because the motor itself works now, I'm looking at the pump pieces. The impeller and diffuser are fine, so the only thing left to replace are the seals. I read somewhere that if the impeller seal is going bad, it will cause a progressively worse leak on the bottom side of the pump, so hubby is now on his way to the pool store to get a complete set of seals and gaskets. We'll just replace them all and see what happens from there. At least I got it running long enough to get a shock dose of bleach in the pool, but I don't want to keep running it until it's no longer leaking for fear of really screwing up the motor.

Al, I left you a couple of phone messages, but I think I answered the question already that I had for you....

[Poconos]

Something I thought about after we chatted.....since you can't see exactly where the water is leaking, from the mating surfaces that that O-ring is supposed to seal or from the motor air vents which would be the shaft seal, while you have it apart take a close look for any cracks in the pump housing. Highly unlikely but if there is one it could be opening up when you torque the bolts.
Catch ya later.
Al

[aylad]

OK, I'll check. The one thing I forgot to mention is that every time I put it together, the leak gets worse--hoping that confirms the suspicion about the bad seal....

Jan

[aylad]

The seal was the problem--the old one just crumbled away when I took the pump apart. So now it's working, not leakng, but it's VERY loud..and since I had to run it overnite last night because I'm cleaning up the green that happened while I waited for warm weather to work on it, the longer it ran last night, the louder it got. So--am I correct in thinking my bearings are bad. And if so, What kind of time do I have before it quits?

[waste]

Hi, Jan. Happy 2012!

I'd say the bearings are indeed bad. If they are, I can't give you a time-frame on total seizure but it should still start as long as you can manually get the shaft to spin.

Do you have a small electric motor repair place nearby that will give you a 60+ day warranty on repacking the bearings? If not, I fear you are looking at a new motor for the new year. :(

Please keep us informed as to what's going on and we'll advise/ help, as best we can.

[PoolDoc]

Janet,

You might want to look at the economics of a 2-speed motor, like these:
http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-Motors--dsh--Replacement-cln-Multi-dsh-Speed/Categories.bok

A 2-speed motor will move 1/2 the water on low for 1/6 the electricity.

I wouldn't bother with the electronic multi-speed motors. As far as I can tell, they do not save any more than then regular 2-speed . . . IF you have sized your pump correctly. And they do cost a LOT more.

However, you often won't find ANY multi-speed motors (2 speed or more) in local stocks, so if you want to go this way, you'll want to order parts BEFORE your motor finally dies.

[Poconos]

Hi Jan,
If the bearings are squealing then I wouldn't bother trying to repack them, if that is even possible. Just replace. If the races aren't rusted in place then replacement should be relatively easy with the right equipment. As for how long before total failure? Anybodys guess.
Al

[PoolDoc]

As for how long before total failure? Anybody's guess.

What he said!

I've seen pumps that make a racket, but keep on going for a year or more. But, I've also seen them die almost immediately.

[aylad]

I can't let it go on for that long making that kind of noise--sounds much like a jet aircraft in the backyard! It's only a matter of time before my elderly neighbor, who doesn't like us anyway, starts complaining since it's on her side of our back yard. I was noticing this morning while I was at the barn feeding the horses that I could actually hear the pump over there--at least 2 acres away! I just hope I can get this algae bloom cleared up before it gives up and dies. Algae is dead, just filtering out the dead stuff, but still have a ways to go.


On a side note, normally when I have algae that I'm killing off, I never have CC....this time, the CC actually hit 4 ppm today during sunlight, but was down to 2 this evening when I added the next bleach dose. Ambient air temps were in the mid 60s today but the water is still pretty cold....wondering if cold water makes the CC more resistant to dissolution by the sun than warm water, or if some of my CYA has gone away and this is just the residual chlorine demand? Water is too milky to test for CYA right now but it'll be interesting to see if it lowered any.

Jan

[aylad]

OK, so far I've not been able to find anybody that stocks the bearings for my pump, let alone replace or repack them. However, I did find an exact replacement motor for $207 online, from a company that supposedly ships in 3 days. So far my current one is hanging in there, but it's loud as it can be. But...I'll try to make it last at least through the winter, since I'm about finished with the algae bloom and now it's just a matter of running it overnight if the temps get too low (current air temp today is 67--not looking like that's gonna happen anytime soon :) ) and in the meantime get the new one in so it'll be ready to go when this one finally dies.

Checked my CYA yesterday, it's down from 90 to 40 ppm (eek!). Chlorine demand is also way up--I'm losing 4-6 ppm a day, so looks like I've fallen prey to the dreaded ammonia. At least I can overcome it now during the winter while the water is still cold, and it won't take as much bleach as it would if the water temps were in the 80s!

Janet

[PoolDoc]

Yeah. I'm afraid the country club pool I take care of has also been de-CYA'd. I wasn't paying attention like I should have been what with the wedding, and then the issues with my sister.

Anyhow, I haven't checked yet, to see if it went to ammonia. I hope not! But, I'm beginning to realize that we need to provide pool owners with a clearer plan to avoid algae AND bacteria over winter, so they can prevent the whole CYA to NH3 and the subsequent monster chlorine demand in spring. And, we need a clear answer to the "how can I tell" question.

[Poconos]

Jan,
Don't know where you looked for bearings but McMaster (mcmaster.com) and Grainger (grainger.com) have a wide assortment of bearings. There's probably a cross reference table somewhere for that motor but you may just have to measure the existing ones and get replacements. My thinking is to get the new motor and then fix the old one at your leisure and keep it as a spare.
Al

[aylad]

. My thinking is to get the new motor and then fix the old one at your leisure and keep it as a spare.
Al

Yeah, that's sort of what I'm thinking too, if the old one isn't too rusted to save. In looking for bearings, I was mainly checking around here locally, but nobody will even really talk about repairing.

Jan

[CarlD]

Jan,

What's the latest?

Carl

[aylad]

It's still sounding a lot like a jet engine, but so far it's still doing the job. I at least got the bloom cleared up and we're back to blue water, and fortunately we're having a warm winter (even for us!) :) so I'm not having to use it at night very much. I've been a bit distracted and haven't yet ordered the new pump but plan to do so this week.

How're you doing?

Jan

[CarlD]

Well, my pool is shut for the winter and is pretty icy, so it's not an issue. I didn't get my speakers down but they ARE designed to be out year round.

Other than that I'm making pretty good progress, healing, and about to be sent to out-patient physical therapy. My in-house P/T is just about done. I can drive again, too.