Acid and Base Demand tests: Useful or Not?

[waterbear]

I want to clear up a few misconceptions since I have seen some confusion in this thread about the K-1005, K-2005, and K-1000 test kits, Taylor has a range of 1000 series test kits with different functionality geared at the home/residential market and a range of 2000 series test kits aimed at the 'advanced home/residential' (read Poolfourm community) and professional markets. I will say that the K-1000 is a useful additional test kit for quick daily testing if you know how to properly use OTO (which means learning the colors at low, normal, high, and very high TC levels) if you supplement it wth DPD or FAS/DPD testing at least weekly or when you suspect problems.

The K-1000 OTO test kit from Taylor upgrades the OTO and pH test to the same as the K-2006, and includes R-0014, rather than R-0004 for the pH test. R-0014 includes a chlorine neutralizer so it can read accurately in higher chlorine situations
BOTH R-0004 and R-0014 have a chlorine neutralizer. The difference between them is the concentration since they are used in different comparators. The 1000 series comparator that is used with R-0014 use a much smaller sample size than the 2000 series comparator, which has higher precision on the pH test, acid demand test and base demand test. The pH indicators are otherwise functionally equivalent and both can read accurately in higher chlorine conditions.
If you have the K-1515 and K-1000, the only other tests you need are the T/A, CYA, and CH tests (acid and base demand are worthless).
The test kit in question is the K-1005 whch has DPD chlorine, pH with acid and base demand (1000 series comparator that uses R-0014), TA, CH, and CYA tests. Adding a K-1515 will ALMOST give you a K-2006 but the pH and acid and base demand tests will not have the precision of the tests in the K-2006. The K-1000 is an OTO/pH only test kit that uses the smaller 1000 series pH comparator, R-0014 and does not include acid and base demand tests so it does not have the precision of the pH test in the K-2006.
Carl
Acid and base demand tests are NOT worthless. In fact they are quite useful when lowing TA or have a situation where pH and TA have crashed. However, the acid and base demands in the K-2006 are much more precise than the ones in the K-1005 (because the 1000 series comparator uses an approx. 9 ml sample size and the 2000 series comparator uses a 44 ml sample size for the pH and demand tests) so it might be ok to say that the ones in the k-1005 are not as useful as the ones in the K-2006 but they are by no means worthless.

Just had to set the record straight.

[Redtickbeer]

Thank you all for the feedback. I have ordered the K-1515 to supplement my testing for chlorine which should help me a lot.

Red

[CarlD]

Evan,
You may be one of the few people I know who actually finds the acid and base demand tests useful. But then, as a person who saw LOTS of pools with lots of problems, you might have needed that. But I've never, ever had a need with my two pools. And most people don't. Ben's kits, when he was putting them together, didn't have an acid or base demand test. I STILL use my old PS-233 as my main kit, constantly replacing reagents.
Carl

[waterbear]

Evan,
You may be one of the few people I know who actually finds the acid and base demand tests useful. But then, as a person who saw LOTS of pools with lots of problems, you might have needed that. But I've never, ever had a need with my two pools. And most people don't. Ben's kits, when he was putting them together, didn't have an acid or base demand test. I STILL use my old PS-233 as my main kit, constantly replacing reagents.
Carl

Well, if you have never had acid and base demand tests to use (OR if you have had them and never bothered to use them since they dor require extra steps) you would not know how useful they can be. An analogy is a magnetic stirrer. Most people do not realize how useful one is until they try one (and Taylor now sells an inexpensive one for home use because they ARE very useful for all the titration tests!) Another example would be those that don't think a good test kit (Like the K-2006) is going to make a difference when they are using strips or a cheap 4 way drop test kit. We've all seen a lot of them and what their reaction is after they finally get a good kit.

Sooooo,,,if you have not used acid and base demand tests do not say that they are not useful since you really don't know if they are or not. FWIW,I know Ben chose not to include them in his test kits and can surmise some of his reasons why. I have a PS-234s myself (and two TF-100s, K-2005, K-1005, K-2006 and a few other non Taylor drop based kits and several specialty kits for such things as chloride (salt), borate, metals, nitrate, ammonia, and orthophosphate) and, while the inclusion of the OTO test (K-1000) in some of Ben's kits (If memory serves me right it was not part of the PS232 but only in the PS-233/PS-234/PS-234s) and the TF-100 is a plus in my opinion, I have found the 2000 series comparator and R-0004 reagent (as found in the K-2005/K-2006) more useful for pH testing than the 1000 series comparator and R-0014 reagent. I also realize that adding two comparators and two different pH reagents would be confusing, add to the cost of the kit, and would most likely lead to newbies (and some experienced users) getting the comparators and reagents mixed up!

[CarlD]

Evan,

Remember: we are primarily working for what works easily and practically for home pool owners.

What problem do acid and base demand tests address than cannot be easily dealt with without them? And are those particular problems common or highly unlikely?

If my pH is high I can use a gradualist approach of adding Muriatic Acid to bring it down.

If my pH is low I can use a similar approach by adding Borax to raise it.

How much easier do those tests make these tasks?

If a pool owner can handle all of his/her issues both when the pool is clear and when there is a problem, without acid and base demand tests, then they are NOT particularly useful for that pool owner. That's simple logic.

Not every tool is necessary for a home-owner.

Carl

[BigDave]

Could the Acid / Base Demand tests be useful to our friends that are reading at either end of the comparator to get a handle on how far off the scale they might be? Should one drop bring the color onto the scale, they're close; Several drops could indicate a more urgent situation. Just a thought.

[PoolDoc]

Guys, I think you're losing track of the OP. Carl, Waterbear . . . if you want to discuss the relative merits of using or ignoring the acid / base demand test, please open a new thread in the China Shop. Personally, I always ignored it, because I have long preferred the little dose, retest and add another little dose approach. But, I never had to work with residential pools that had been mega-over-dosed with acid or soda ash.

Still . . . China Shop, please.

Thanks,

Ben

[waterbear]

China shop is fine with me. Carl, care to split the thread? Post 9 seems to be the place where it went south.
And to answer your question, acid demand test is VERY useful when lowering TA.
Only time I ever had to use a base demand is when someone was not paying attention to their pool chemistry and was using trichlor and had a pH/TA crash and that is rare but I do use the acid demand test all the time.

[CarlD]

Evan,
I'm always open to new ideas. Tell me how to use the acid demand test (I mean, other than directions) and what I can hope to learn from it. Is it REALLY that needed beyond a gradualist approach?

Carl

[PoolDoc]

Evan;

My take on AD & BD tests is that they can provide information someone might LIKE to have, but --- major overdose correction situations aside --- there are few (if any) cases where they provide information someone NEEDS to have.

For example, if you want to lower alkalinity, an AD test will be able to help you estimate how hard that's going to be. But, from a PF 'answer' point of view, what rookie pool users need to be told is STILL "hold your pH to 7.0 or just below until your TA drops to an acceptable level". Functionally, they need to do it however long that takes, and knowing that it might be a long time, doesn't modify the process.

So, as I see it, the AD test adds (to use an awful neologism) "non-actionable" information. You 'know' more, but you can't DO anything with that knowledge.

Granted, it might help with some of the 'Nervous Nellies' or OCD types that show up here. But my experience is, in dealing with OCD's that there is NOT a level of information that actually relieves their itch. No matter how much you tell them, they still want more.

However, if you tell them too much that's not "actionable", this new (and functionally useless) information confuses them or distracts them from paying attention to the USEFUL information, like how low their FC level is.

Anyhow, that's my opinion. But, I'm open to correction.

Ben

[chem geek]

When lowering the pH in my pool, either just to get the pH lower or when doing the TA lowering procedure, I have a choice. I can calculate how much acid I need to have accurately using my spreadsheet or I can use the acid demand test in my Taylor K-2006 kit. I've done both, but over time, I tend to just use the acid demand test because it's there and it's easy. Eventually though, I just know how much I need to add (for regular lowering of pH, that is).

The other time the acid and base demand test is useful is when one is unsure of the pH reading. The acid and base demand tests let one move the pH color up and down to see where the pH might have been. I did that in the early days until I got used to the pH test though now I don't see the need for it anymore.

[PoolDoc]

The other time the acid and base demand test is useful is when one is unsure of the pH reading. The acid and base demand tests let one move the pH color up and down to see where the pH might have been.

Yes. I'd forgotten about that one, but I've used that on occasion as well. And, that is a valid use.

The other issue, of determining how much acid to add, from a PoolForum point of view (what to tell newbies) rather than a personal view (what I might myself do), I strongly prefer a standard dose of acid or base, followed by a test, followed by a re-dose.

Among many other things, I think handling it this way is easier to learn and tends to indoctrinate newbies into the need to manage their pool on a regular basis.

[waterbear]

2 things:
First. this post was split at my post trying to explain the confusion in this thread about the K-1005, K-1000, and K-2006 AND to clarify that both R-0004 and R-0014 pH reagents contain the chlorine neutralizer but are at different concentrations because of the comparator size and NOT that one has chlorine neutralizer and one does not (a bit of misinformation I have seen on this forum too much for my comfort level and I correct whenever it appears, last time was with AnnaK--not sure where it started or who started it) and, IMHO, this was useful info in the OP's thread since he was asking about the k-1005 test kit, which, other than the smaller comparator, which only has an effect om pH and demand tests, is otherwise functionally equivalent to the K-2005 so he really just needed the stand alone FAS-DPD kit.

The only other people besides myself that gave the OP accurate info on their question were giroup01 and BigDave. Even you dropped the ball, Ben, when you referred to the K-2005 instead of the K-1005. Carl, I don't know where your discussion of the K-1000 came in but your post was just wrong:

Add that to the K-2005 and you have the K2006. The K-1000 OTO test kit from Taylor upgrades the OTO and pH test to the same as the K-2006,:confused:
The K-1000 has exactly the same pH test as the K-1005 and included both acid and base demand tests. The pH test in the K-2005 and K-2006 is different and while not haveing as wide a range does have geater precision on the pH and demand tests. Neither the K-1005 nor the K-2005 have OTO, they both use DPD and are identical in this test. The K-2006 also does not have an OTO test. It has a DPD-FAS test.
and includes R-0014, rather than R-0004 for the pH test. R-0014 includes a chlorine neutralizer so it can read accurately in higher chlorine situations:confused: Both pH reagents have chlorine neutralizer as I stated before. (Chlorine makes pH read high). list on the K-1000 is about $10.

If you have the K-1515 and K-1000, the only other tests you need are the T/A, CYA, and CH tests (acid and base demand are worthless).
The OP had a K-1005 which has exactly the same TA, CYA, and CH tests that the K-2005/2006 have!
:confused::confused:
Carl
Even if someone is not familiar with the different test kits put out by Taylor a quick search of their website or even just putting K-1005 as a search term in Google would give you the info on that kit in question and the tests that it has.
IMHO, the first post of this thread should have stayed in the original thread since it directly addressed what the OP was asking about, the K-1005 iCare kit and clarifying some of the misinformation that was posted concerning the OP's question.

Second:
As far as demant tests, I already stated that they acid demand test is very useful when lowering TA.

Acid and base demand tests are NOT worthless. In fact they are quite useful when lowing TA
With high TA we all know it will take more acid to lower the pH to our target of 7.0 than with a lower TA. The acid demand test is a tool that will somewhat shorten what is a lengtly procedure.

For example, in a 10K pool with 'normal' TA of 100 ppm it takes just a bit over a quart of muriatic acid (in fact, 1 qt and 10 oz.) to lower the pH from 8.0 (not an unrealistic number for pH when the TA is high, btw) to 7.0 while in the same pool with a TA of 300 (not an uncommon number for someone who has problems with high TA fill water) it takes just under a gallon (115 oz.). General rule of thumb is to put a pint to a quart of acid in (for 10k gallons), wait, and test pH until it is where we want it. This makes what is a lengthy procedure even longer. If we do a demand test we can add our gallon of acid and start aerating. As pH rises we need to continue adding acid, if we do a demand test we know how much is needed to get us back to 7.0. In my own experience this cuts SIGNIFICANT time off what is needed to lower TA.

As far as base demand tests, We sometimes get people who have been using trichlor and have crashed their pH and TA. The general rule is to add half a box of borax and wait and test pH. We all know that it can sometimes take several boxes. With a demand test they will know how much soda ash is needed and it just so happens that they will need very close to exactly twice the amount of borax. In fact, it is so close we can just tell them to put in twice the amount of borax as soda ash.

If someone does not have a demand test then small doses and 'creeping up on the target' is the way to go but if we have testing at our disposal (and even many of our new members seem to have a K-2005) then why not use it?

As far at that goes, if we know that we need to increase the CYA by 40 ppm in a pool why are we telling people to add only half the required amount and, once again, make a lengthy process even longer?

I hope I have not stepped on anyone's toes with this reply but I invite any of you to find fault with what I said and post it.

[BigDave]

Id like to throw this 2 cents in: In the case that I need to use Muriatic Acid (I haven't yet), I'd like to know about how much to buy. I would gladly pay just as much for a quart that I need rather than a gallon and have to store the remainder.

[PoolDoc]

I just realized something.

Carl (and I) think about A/B demand testing from the point of view of trying to teach newbies to use the test, adjust with small doses, test again method ("the TATA method"? ;) ) . . . AND keeping the NUMBER of things tested and taught to a minimum. If a newbie follows the TATA approach, they'll never (or almost never) need the A/B test.

Some of this comes from my background, controlling pH in commercial pools with acid feed, rather than slugged doses.

Evan, you have worked a lot with pool store walk-ins, where you are FORCED to use a large 'fire and forget' doses, because you have no idea if they'll come back. In THAT environment, A/B testing would be almost essential.

And of course, Richard instinctively approaches pool testing from the "how can I acquire the greatest possible amount of analytical information about my pool's water"? Obviously, A/B testing would be a component in that.

So I think what's happened here -- in part -- is we were all speaking from different perspectives, without noticing it. So, now I'm trying to 'notice it'.

[waterbear]

I just realized something.

Carl (and I) think about A/B demand testing from the point of view of trying to teach newbies to use the test, adjust with small doses, test again method ("the TATA method"? ;) ) . . . AND keeping the NUMBER of things tested and taught to a minimum. If a newbie follows the TATA approach, they'll never (or almost never) need the A/B test.
And in the process some of them get very frustrated since it takes so long and they go back to the pool store for their "miracle in a bottle"! Most pool owners, as you well know, do not have a lot of POP. If we have a tool at our disposal (since newbies are now getting the Taylor kit with the demand tests in them so they have them) to shorten the time why not instruct them to use the test when it is appropriate (such as the example I gave above in lowering TA, which is a common scenerio)?
Some of this comes from my background, controlling pH in commercial pools with acid feed, rather than slugged doses.
And this I more than appreciate since I also worked at a commercial facility with acid feed pumps that needed to be adjusted in very small increments. However, since we did test the water 3 times a day in each of the pools, hot tubs, and play areas we had a LOT of data for making the adjustments! Are we expecting the same from a home pool owner? I know I don't want to test MY pool three times a day or more to get the pH where I want it. If I have a 'ballpark amount" to get me very close that would be much better! I can then make whatever small adjustment (if any) is needed the next day.

FWIW, there are times when the TATA (test, adjust, test, adjust) approach is the only way such as with SWCGs when the owner is trying to adjust the cell output to maintain a specific FC level.
Evan, you have worked a lot with pool store walk-ins, where you are FORCED to use a large 'fire and forget' doses, because you have no idea if they'll come back. In THAT environment, A/B testing would be almost essential.
However, I was using Demand tests way before I did the pool store gig. I was the one who dug the demand tests out of storage so I could use them. No one else in the store knew what they were for. They just did the computer read out and handed it and the attached shopping list to the customer!
And of course, Richard instinctively approaches pool testing from the "how can I acquire the greatest possible amount of analytical information about my pool's water"? Obviously, A/B testing would be a component in that.
You seem to forget that I have a similar chemistry background to Richard and tend to do the same with my own pool. Then there is my many years worth of experience with reef aquarium keeping and water testing which is not that dissimilar to pool testing in many ways.
So I think what's happened here -- in part -- is we were all speaking from different perspectives, without noticing it. So, now I'm trying to 'notice it'.
I just think that blanket statements like 'demand tests are useless' are not beneficial (and I drank that koolaid when I was trying to help 'someone' promote their testkit business even though in private conversations I suggested including demand tests because they can be useful. However, this kit was being modeled (an exactly copy?) after another kit that had been available and this 'someone' wanted their kit to be the same. I agree that the demand tests can be considered "advanced" but we do have many users who "graduate' to that level quickly.

[PoolDoc]

OK.

Now, on to the hard part. This thread has provoked a certain amount of uh-h, 'response' in my email box. So I figure I need to wade in a bit.

Evan, you were correct that I confused the K2005 and the K1005. I'm didn't even recall that there WAS a K1005. And, without digging more than I'm willing to right now, I'm not sure what's the case regarding sample sizes and all that, so I'm happy to defer to you.

"Useless" is not the way I'd chose to describe A/B testing.

However, when you wrote

With high TA we all know it will take more acid to lower the pH to our target of 7.0 than with a lower TA. The acid demand test is a tool that will somewhat shorten what is a lengtly procedure.
I'll agree or disagree, depending on how you define "somewhat". My inclination is toward "somewhat" equals "not significantly", and especially in the context of some new to testing (like redtickbeer") an unnecessary complication.

All in all, I'm still convinced that - with a few exceptions -- TATA is the way to go with most PF users, and especially newbies.

We struggle CONSTANTLY with having to balance the need to give instructions that will work if done correctly with instructions that can be followed by confused newbies.

There are many, many significant treatment tools I mention rarely or NEVER, because it's not generally applicable here. For example, I rarely mention (and only with lots of red cautions), direct pre-filter additions of cal hypo to the circulation stream, even though it will
+ remove metals
+ dramatically improve clarity in heavily used pools
+ remove oils and gunk
+ 'test' filters for proper function
+ auto-balance pH, CA, & CH
+ and more.

Why not? Because it's too complicated and depends too much on following the instructions exactly AND because if common sorts of mistakes are made, DANGEROUS results will follow.

Likewise, I've hardly ever mentioned using peroxide and copper for instant (1-day) cleanups of swamps with 4" of sludge on the bottom. Why? Because, even though it's worked EVERY time I've tried it, I haven't worked out doses, and don't know if it works everywhere, and don't want to have to explain all the problems of clean up copper (with no cal hypo!).

So, when Carl and I say A/B testing is not very useful (Carl went further than I would in saying it was "useless") that's a viewpoint I consider to be correct on PF . . . when you keep in mind that our audience is newbies. For a few of us, PF is an outlet or entertainment or even a life interest. But for most people here, PF is a resource that's intended to help them get the chemistry stuff out of the way so they can ENJOY their pool.

In that context, the complication of A/B testing is of questionable value . . . and the question is, "Does it add more value than complication?", since it obviously adds both value and complication. My judgement is, that it adds more complication than value.

There's some background here.

Having worked with lifeguards for years, trying to get them to test pools, I've discovered regular and frequent is MUCH better than regular and infrequent. In other words, it's easier to get the guards to test the pool 1x per day than 1x per week.

Why?

Habits get build with repetition and lost with time in which no repetition occurs. There's a sweet spot that works better than others, and a 1x per week activity is outside it. It is my experiences with lifeguards, and my judgement with homeowners, that they need to test 1 - 2x per day IN ORDER TO GET INTO THE HABIT.

This is one reason I like the K1000, which allows cheap 1 - 2x per day testing.

But . . . A/B testing will never be learned that way, since it's intrinsically of episodic value: you only need it, when things have gone wrong. So, if you teach new users who come to PF to use A/B testing, instead of TATA, you have given them a skill that won't have value until the NEXT time something goes wrong. But, if you teach them to deal with the problem with TATA . . . that skill (and HABIT) simply roles on over into regular pool ops.

I still believe this is a HUGE functional benefit, but again only from the point of view that we are trying to help folks OPERATE their pool in the simplest way possible, with the lowest achievable learning curve.

Or, in other words, K.I.S.S.

Evan, I recognize that A/B testing can occasionally have value. I think it might be worthwhile to have a reference-able page explaining how to do it, so that when people come in with high TA or unknown low (or high) pH we can say:
#1 - do TATA, but check this A/B page out, since it might help you, in your particular situation.
#2 - in your emergency situation (pH maybe 4.0), read A/B since that may abbreviate the length of time your pool spends in the pH "Death Zone".
#3 - for YOU (Service Guy), A/B testing can be a useful tool. Here's the page. (Of course, my experience is that pool service guys that come to PF -- admittedly a skewed selection -- tend to have a LOWER learning capability than the average pool owner.
#4 - for you (tinker guy who likes his pool mostly as an elaborate tinker toy), you might like using A/B.

BUT, I do not think A/B testing has value as a GENERALLY RECOMMENDED PF advice-let.

Why?

Because it's awfully easy to screw up:

"OK. I got pool water in the plastic color thingie. Check.
I put the pH bottle stuff in the side that says pH. Check.
Darn. It's a weird color.
Oh yeah. I can ADD hat A/B stuff to make it change color and then count the drops.
Ok. I add some B stuff.
Darn! No change.
2 more drops. Still no change. I'll try the other kind.
I'll add some A stuff. OK. It changed.
No, it changed back. Darn.
I'll add some more. Ok. It quit changing.
Darn! It changed back again.
Ok. It quit again. Add another drop or so.
Yeah, it stayed quit. 8 drops of A stuff or maybe 10.
Now what.
Oh, yeah. Where's that darn book.
Chart, chart, chart . . . A/B chart. There it is.
Ok, 8 drops that will be 1.28# for 5,000 gallons.
How much is my pool? Oh yea, 6,000. Ok that one.
Soda ash. What is soda ash? Wait, I don't want to increase my pH.
Darn! Wrong chart.
OK. 2.29 gallons of muriatic acid.
Sheesh. I have to use that stuff?
Wait, another chart. Dry acid. Ok
3.06# of dry acid. Ok.
I got a 5# container. That should be close enough.
Ok. Dump it in.
Crap. It's all on the bottom. Will hit hurt something.
Darn. There are bubbles coming from the plaster. That's not good.
Ok. Brush it around.
Ok. All gone; all good.
Darn. It's nearly dark. Sorry kids, no swimming tonight.
(Next morning)
Crap. What the ### is this? NOW, the fleeping pH is LOW.
Screw that stupid PF place. Off to the pool store."

And, if you think that won't happen -- pretty much exactly -- you need to answer a few more questions from Intex newbies.

But, it can be worse. If you go the other way, and add a slugged A/B dose of SODA ASH, in a pool that has moderate CA and CH . . . you've got a much better than 50:50 chance of precipitaing a calcium carbonate cloud, which is slow to clear up.

So, I guess the question is, do you want to submit a A/B testing guide we can edit and post? (And I will credit you.)

[CarlD]

Evan,
I'm willing to take your chastisement about the test kit versions. Yes, I dropped the ball on that one, though I DO like the K1000 OTO kit best.

But I'm not a pool pro, and neither are my fellow mods, as you and Ben are. I'm a shade tree mechanic as it were (as I am with my motorcycles) and I am always thinking about what is easiest and simplest for the homeowner to use to run his / her pool.

But our gradualist approach permiates ALL of our recommendations for chemical additions, whether it's acid, borax, baking soda, soda ash, or CYA. And we teach POP as part of that. We teach that POP is CRITICAL for cleaning up an algae bloom or for a Baq conversion. Yet you would have us think that applying it to an acid or base demand situation is too much and they'll run back to the "Magic in a Bottle" and get it trouble.

Well, you are not wrong. Many people will. We see it all the time when those incapable of POP have a bloom and ignore our advice (including yours) and run back to the pool store for the magic bottle. There's really nothing you or I can do about that. But does that mean we abandon the gradualist approach? Nobody likes to test two or 3 times a day. I sure don't. But when I have a problem (which usually happens when I come back from vacation or after a big storm, or days of storms) I test, add, test, add, etc.

So here's what I propose: You come up with a simplified, clear way to use acid demand that works for homeowners and I'll try it out. We can clean it up, simplify it, and make sure it's easy to use at pool side and not a white lab coat test. In other words, we can add it to the tool kit for those who want to use it as an alternate to the more gradual approach.

I don't mind having alternate approaches, though I do sometimes have to be reminded of that. But I do like alternates to be clear.

You see, I like simple, easy-to-remember approaches, preferably with a catch-phrase to help newbies and poolowners remember it. That's why I came up with "B-B-B" for Bleach, Borax, and Baking Soda. Is it complete? No. It omits acid, soda ash, polyquat and CYA. But it's catchy and easy to remember. It's a "hook" so to speak. "Ratchet down" for the TA lowering is similar to clarify the process. "Rule of Thumb" makes it easy to estimate the bleach or LC you need if you can't get to the Pool Calculator. "Shot Glass" encapsulates the method of dilution for extending OTO testing. Maybe this will be the "One-Shot" approach to raising pH. I don't know.

What I'm saying is I'm willing to work with you on it. I can't speak for the other mods or Ben, just me.

Carl

PS: I wrote this before Ben posted his last post. I should add that I will defer to Ben on modifying anything I put in this post. Still, if A/B testing is to be added to the tool box, even as an occasional test, it needs to robust and simple, not delicate and complicated, or it WILL cause more trouble than it's worth for the homeowner and non-chemist.C

[waterbear]

Ben,

I am not disagreeing with you. In fact, I agree with almost everything you wrote!

My first "response" post dealt with two issues:
1. getting the proper info to the OP about his test kit since I feel that as the 'experts' we owe that to the new members. I have seen you on many occasions ask people (including me!) to spell check before posting. IMHO, that should be extended to take a few seconds to look up some info before answering a post if you are not sure of the specifics. Being able to back up a post with facts that can be referenced only adds to the credibility of the forum.

This is what lead to the second issue, the statement that acid and base demand tests are useless. You and I do agree that, under certain situations, they can and are useful. Nowhere did I recommend them for trivial pH adjustments. I recommended them for those unusual situations where they can make solving a specific problem easier.

I think your idea of a special page on A/B testing is an excellent idea! Once again, I never said it was a test that is going to be used on a regular basis and I quite agree that getting good daily testing habits is of prime importance (just look up any of the posts I have made answering how often should a pool be tested!)







Because it's awfully easy to screw up:

"OK. I got pool water in the plastic color thingie. Check.
I put the pH bottle stuff in the side that says pH. Check.
Darn. It's a weird color.
Oh yeah. I can ADD hat A/B stuff to make it change color and then count the drops.
Ok. I add some B stuff.
Darn! No change.
2 more drops. Still no change. I'll try the other kind.
I'll add some A stuff. OK. It changed.
No, it changed back. Darn.
I'll add some more. Ok. It quit changing.
Darn! It changed back again.
Ok. It quit again. Add another drop or so.
Yeah, it stayed quit. 8 drops of A stuff or maybe 10.
Now what.
Oh, yeah. Where's that darn book.
Chart, chart, chart . . . A/B chart. There it is.
Ok, 8 drops that will be 1.28# for 5,000 gallons.
How much is my pool? Oh yea, 6,000. Ok that one.
Soda ash. What is soda ash? Wait, I don't want to increase my pH.
Darn! Wrong chart.
OK. 2.29 gallons of muriatic acid.
Sheesh. I have to use that stuff?
Wait, another chart. Dry acid. Ok
3.06# of dry acid. Ok.
I got a 5# container. That should be close enough.
Ok. Dump it in.
Crap. It's all on the bottom. Will hit hurt something.
Darn. There are bubbles coming from the plaster. That's not good.
Ok. Brush it around.
Ok. All gone; all good.
Darn. It's nearly dark. Sorry kids, no swimming tonight.
(Next morning)
Crap. What the ### is this? NOW, the fleeping pH is LOW.
Screw that stupid PF place. Off to the pool store."


As far as newbies screwing things up (if it can go wrong it will!) you are preaching to the choir! Some of the more memorable was the person who was holding the spoon part of the DPD scoop as a handle and using the handle as a scoop (all it did was waste DPD powder) and the person who was testing chlorine but the color never went "clear", it stayed a bit cloudy even though all the pink had disappeared! (Since that one I never say the color change is from red to clear but from red to colorless!)

I also used to work help desk many eons ago when I was in the software/hardware industry. (To give you an idea of how long ago we made hardware for Apple ][ and Einstein computers and software for Apple ][ and Apple CP/M and were a VAR for the ATT Unix System V PC. If you know what I am talking about then you have been using computers for over 30 years!) I think one of my most common answers (when there was nothing on the monitor) was to check if it was turned on. Most of the time it was not!
And, if you think that won't happen -- pretty much exactly -- you need to answer a few more questions from Intex newbies.
ROFL, I know you did not forget that I was a MOD at TFP for a very long time and am currently a MOD at PoolSpaForum! I spend most of my time answering newbie questions. Aldo, I used to sell Intex donuts and dealt with the new pool owners face to face! Like I said, if it can go wrong it will!
But, it can be worse. If you go the other way, and add a slugged A/B dose of SODA ASH, in a pool that has moderate CA and CH . . . you've got a much better than 50:50 chance of precipitaing a calcium carbonate cloud, which is slow to clear up.
Which is why I said substitute the Borax for the soda ash by using twice as much by weight. There needs to be CLEAR instructions for proper use of these tests, just as there are clear instructions for lowering TA (and even those are often misunderstood. I once had a long debate with someone who sells a test kit and runs a forum who was convinced that it was aeration that lowered TA even though I was trying to explain that adding acid lowers TA and aerating just brings the pH back up without bringing the TA up again also and that if you were patient enough you did not even have to aerate, the pH would rise on it's own over time but it fell on deaf ears--and this was by no means a newbie!)
So, I guess the question is, do you want to submit a A/B testing guide we can edit and post?



(And I will credit you.)

I would be glad to write something up. Should I email it to you or just post it? I probably won't have the time until next weekend, however. I am not looking for credit. No reason to add the quote bracket! If you want to give me credit fine but that is not my motive!

[PoolDoc]

Yeah, mail it to me.

No hurry --- I'm shifting to winter mode, so we can bang it back and forth a few times before opening it up to others.

Ben

[waterbear]

Evan,
I'm willing to take your chastisement about the test kit versions. Yes, I dropped the ball on that one, though I DO like the K1000 OTO kit best.

But I'm not a pool pro, and neither are my fellow mods, as you and Ben are. I'm a shade tree mechanic as it were (as I am with my motorcycles) and I am always thinking about what is easiest and simplest for the homeowner to use to run his / her pool.
Let's not forget that I am still a home pool owner and a lazy one at that!;)
But our gradualist approach permiates ALL of our recommendations for chemical additions, whether it's acid, borax, baking soda, soda ash, or CYA. And we teach POP as part of that. We teach that POP is CRITICAL for cleaning up an algae bloom or for a Baq conversion. Yet you would have us think that applying it to an acid or base demand situation is too much and they'll run back to the "Magic in a Bottle" and get it trouble.

Well, you are not wrong. Many people will. We see it all the time when those incapable of POP have a bloom and ignore our advice (including yours) and run back to the pool store for the magic bottle. There's really nothing you or I can do about that.
However, if we offer an 'advanced alternative' to save a bit of time that really is not THAT advanced it might keep a few more of them with us. I am not advocating using peroxide to clean a swamp, even though it works. (although I have mentioned Proteam System Saver, which is sodium percarbonate which forms peroxide when dissolved since it's a matter of just following package directions for a really badly foulded pool with a lot of debris on the bottom).
But does that mean we abandon the gradualist approach? Nobody likes to test two or 3 times a day. I sure don't. But when I have a problem (which usually happens when I come back from vacation or after a big storm, or days of storms) I test, add, test, add, etc.

So here's what I propose: You come up with a simplified, clear way to use acid demand that works for homeowners and I'll try it out. We can clean it up, simplify it, and make sure it's easy to use at pool side and not a white lab coat test. In other words, we can add it to the tool kit for those who want to use it as an alternate to the more gradual approach.
Carl, one thing I pride myself on is taking things and making them simple. An example is explanations for chemical processes in the pool. I usually let chem geek list all the chemical equations (not that I can't) and instead, explain things with simple analogies that just about anyone can grasp such as shaking up a bottle of club soda to make it go flat when explaining aerating a pool. I am not saying one way is better than another, I just want to exaplain complicated processes to the widest possible audience. Chem geeks equations and charts are needed and extremely useful to us! However, even my eyes have glazed over at first reading of some of them and it has taken a while to digest all the info, even with my chemistry background.

As far as KISS, I have been chastised for saying that in posts in the past! I am a firm believer that the easiest way is the best way. In this case I believe that using a demand test to reach a target pH is easier than adding a bit, waiting, testing, adding a bit more, waiting some more, and testing again. When newbies are adjusting their pools they want to know HOW MUCH of something to put in. To tell them just add a little bit and wait and retest can be frustrating. How much is a little bit? I tell them that start with a pint of acd per 10k gallons of water since that amount will usually make some change but not too much change in pH (with average TA it should not drop the pH more than about .4 and if they need to add acid then their pH is at least 7.8) If they are trying to lower a high TA this approach will take quite a long time and they really have no clue how much acid is ok to add all at once. If they do a demand test and find that they need a gallon of acid to lower the pH to the desired target we have then saved them at possibly a day or more of testing before they can start aeration, have we not?.
I don't mind having alternate approaches, though I do sometimes have to be reminded of that. But I do like alternates to be clear.

You see, I like simple, easy-to-remember approaches, preferably with a catch-phrase to help newbies and poolowners remember it. That's why I came up with "B-B-B" for Bleach, Borax, and Baking Soda. Is it complete? No. It omits acid, soda ash, polyquat and CYA. But it's catchy and easy to remember.
Then, when someone is using bleach for chlorinating just tell them to remember the ABCs of normal maintenace. Acid, Bleach, and CYA! (You're Welcome!;))
It's a "hook" so to speak. "Ratchet down" for the TA lowering is similar to clarify the process. "Rule of Thumb" makes it easy to estimate the bleach or LC you need if you can't get to the Pool Calculator. "Shot Glass" encapsulates the method of dilution for extending OTO testing. Maybe this will be the "One-Shot" approach to raising pH. I don't know.

What I'm saying is I'm willing to work with you on it. I can't speak for the other mods or Ben, just me.

Carl

PS: I wrote this before Ben posted his last post. I should add that I will defer to Ben on modifying anything I put in this post. Still, if A/B testing is to be added to the tool box, even as an occasional test, it needs to robust and simple, not delicate and complicated, or it WILL cause more trouble than it's worth for the homeowner and non-chemist.C

If you have ever done the test is IS robust and simple! Even the treatment tables can be simplified. The only column you need to look at for a pool is the 1000 gal column and have a calculator handy to multiply the amount of acid or base needed by the number of "1000 gallons" in the pool in question! (If we are using borax for the base we then double that number). It's really not rocket science and is probably easier than testing calcium (it is certainly faster in many cases!) It is certainly easier to get a results that is not ambiguous then when testing CYA, is it not?

[CarlD]

Evan,
Everybody uses ABC for everything. I thought about it and rejected it. And the old detergent commercial, "Now, with bleach, Borax and brighteners!" kept running through my head... and B-B-B was born and now has spread or infected other sites as well. Can't put the genie back in the bottle.

While you and Ben are both very good at making it simple, you still need the reality check of non-pros to prove the validity of what you think is easy. But saying the test is easy after Ben's description of the myriad mess-ups isn't enough. We need to ensure it is, like the best guess table or all the work we've all done to make the TA lowering easy to understand.

We CAN have multiple approaches. That is what differs our board from some others that insist there should only be one way to do things ( no names!)

Carl

[waste]

Hey all:)

Nice thread!

I like the acid and base demand tests! However, I'm very familiar with them;).

I use the Taylor 1000 R0014 for my 3X a day tests, but break out the 2006 R0004 when the pH sits at the edge (either 7.2 or 7.8) for more than a day and use the A/B demand test to calculate the proper amount of chem to add. I've been able to use the a/b tests to 'one dump' dose many pools, but I was a service dude and actually cared about their bank balance (they paid $$$ every time I stepped into their yard).

I want to remind everyone (although I KNOW y'all know it) that the 'ideal' chem ranges are broad enough that there is a lot of room 'to boogie'. Therefore, you can add 3/4 of what the demand test tells you and probably be in the 'good' range and then adjust from there.

I don't think we need to tell folks to buy a special kit to do the a/b tests, but if they already have it, it can be useful!

[waterbear]

Was wondering when you would join the party, Ted!

[CrisL]

Wow, this is the first time I looked at this thread. Three pages on whether the acid/base demand tests are useful. My two cents (and that is probably generous on what its worth). I never use it on my pool. Add a little, wait add some more. But on my spa, it is quite useful, particularly the acid demand reagent. An extra tablespoon of acid can cause a drastic overshoot. I find that the test brings me very close to a desired result.

[waterbear]

Wow, this is the first time I looked at this thread. Three pages on whether the acid/base demand tests are useful. My two cents (and that is probably generous on what its worth). I never use it on my pool. Add a little, wait add some more. But on my spa, it is quite useful, particularly the acid demand reagent. An extra tablespoon of acid can cause a drastic overshoot. I find that the test brings me very close to a desired result.

I agree, for a small pool or a spa they become much more useful since the danger of overdosing is much higher!. I am working on the second draft of a howto and will email it to Ben once it's done. Hope to get it done over the next two weeks since I just started my Xmas break from work.

[polyvue]

Yes, picking up an old thread... haven't been on in a couple of years (my excuse).

I ignored my kit's AD test for several years, relying upon Pool Calculator dot com or my own hybrid spreadsheet (calcs ripped from a perfectly good 2007 TFP post by chem geek, and bolstered by results generated by the Taylor watergram and industry LSI tables - I guess I'm what PoolDoc referred to as an "OCD" guy) to determine the right dose of MA.

Last year, I fashioned a hybrid test kit using a Taylor midget comparator (K-1285-2 phenol) and R-0853 ADR and leftover parts from old CYA (9193/4) and salt (K-1766) tests, and discovered that a drop or two of acid demand reagent helped me to validate my color-matching acumen. It's not always easy to tell 7.9 from 8.0 or 8.1 but the ADR drop took the color out of deep purple and into a range I could see without plugging in the daylight lamp.

So, my "vote" is with waterbear on this one; though I appreciate Carl and PoolDoc's (and waterbear's) concerns regarding newbie testing. If I continue to post here, I promise to attempt to answer new poster enquiries with consideration for what has already been discussed. :)

[PoolDoc]

I understand that the acid / base demand test can have value under certain conditions. But if you want to know the difference between 7.8 and 8.0, reliably, a calibrated pH meter is a better option.

It's also true that, if a pool's pH is out of range, the ABD test can allow you (well, us) to get a handle on whether 'this newbie pool' needs adjustment, or needs panic treatment to minimize damage.

But, I do wish that some of the tests -- and particularly that stinking Taylor manual -- came with a seal that said, "Open only under direction from PF mods or team members." ;)

[CarlD]

I still have not used the ad or bd tests. I think once you get into a rhythm with B-B-B you tend to have less problems every season. I have backed away in my mind from "useless" to "only needed when there is a big problem with pH"
Carl

[waterbear]

Ben
I have a why, when, and howto on on the demand tests about 3/4 done. I will have more time after this Wednesday to try and finish them up and mail them to you. Right now it is rather long so I want to try and simplify and shorten it some more.

[PoolDoc]

Thanks.