Having Trouble Cleaning a Pool..

[BoredOne]

Hey PoolForum, let me first say that I've been trying to research this as much as I possibly can and have taken a liking to poolsolutions for my information.. That being said we're a first time pool owner and probably got stuck with a horrible pool for first timers..

We just got a house that the pool hasn't been used in who knows how long, and probably neglected even longer before that. So its in rough shape, however the filter (cartridge) and pump works. (just got new ball bearings in the pump since it was new but locked up, all good now)

So anywho I started out by shocking the pool.. First time all looked great it started to clear up and the green was going away. However as time went on the pool got very very cloudy and it just never stayed clean. Algae keeps coming back and keeps growing or just building up on the walls. I'm not really sure what to do here.. I've been at this pool for over a month and it doesn't look like its getting better..

I've been trying to keep the chemical levels at the proper amounts but it seems the chlorine level doesn't want to go up at all.

From the little tester the
Chlorine - .6-1? (its not very clear were it is actually its kinda a light yellow but can't really tell the difference)
PH - 7.6
Alkalinity - 100
Hardness - probably around 200 (it was a little lighter than the 250 on the test strip)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4639/33475522928159712237510.jpg

I'm not exactly sure about the amount of water in the pool but I estimate around 9k gallons..

Also the pool is really green in that photo cause I just finished brushing the sides, again..

[aylad]

Hello, and welcome to the forum!!

Clearing up your pool won't be hard, IF you have a little patience and a proper test kit! The test strips you're using are useless when it comes to clearing up pools. They can tell you if you have some, or no, chlorine in the pool, but that's about as reliable as you're going to get.

So...You need a test kit. A cheap OTO kit (uses red and yellow drops to measure chlorine and pH) will be better than the test strips, at least for now. It will read chlorine up to 5 ppm, but you can force it to read a bit higher by diluting the pool sample 1:1 with distilled water and then testing from that sample and multiplyig the result by 2. It's still a ballpark, but much better than the strips. The kit we really recommend is the K-2006, which has tests in it for most everything you'll need to know, and is able to read chlorine levels up to 50 ppm or so. You can find it online at several places, but one of the cheapest is at the Amazon link in my signature (plus the PF gets a small donation from the sale) Only buy it if it's Amato industries as the seller, though--some of the other companies are substituting a different kit that is NOT the same thing.

We also need to know if the pool has any CYA (also called stabilizer) in it. Can you take a sample to a pool store that uses drop-based testing and ask them to check for stabilizer? They're going to try to sell you a bunch of stuff, but just smile and say you have it at home--don't buy any of it, especially algaecides, phosphate removers, or calcium. Just get the CYA level and post it here.

Once we know the CYA level, we can tell you how high to raise the chlorine (the "Best guess chlorine chart" is linked in my sig, too) to achieve "shock" level. Then you just have to maintain that shock level until the pool clears. WE recommend testing and adding more chlorine 2-3 x daily, or as often as you can, because the more consistent about keeping the chlorine up, the faster the pool will clear up. We recommend plain, unscented bleach for the chlorine source, since it doesn't change any other level in your pool water except chlorine. And to give you an example, in 9K gallons, each gallon of 6% bleach you use will raise your FC by 6.7 ppm, so I would get several jugs of plain, unscented bleach to start with.

GEt your CYA tested, get a drop-based test kit of some sort, come back and post the result, and we'll be glad to get you on the right track!

[BoredOne]

Actually I do have the drop test.. It has 5 of the chemicals inside for testing Chlorine, PH, Alkalinity as well as an acid requirement test. The Rest of the info is from the test strips. As for the CYA it can be anywhere between 0 and 50 as the test strips spread it out that much, but if I had to guess I'd say around 20-30.. How often do I need to shock the pool? Cause I've been pouring a 10% liquid shock that we've been getting from winn dixie 2gallons every few days.. I figure the 20ppm would suffice.. Also should I be worrying about the clarity of the pool quite yet? Figure it should be clear so I can see the deep end to vacuum.. When I'm testing what am I testing for exactly? When you say "WE recommend testing and adding more chlorine 2-3 x daily" am I just watching the chlorine levels? And what level should it stay near..

Thanks-

[PoolDoc]

Hey One;

There are 3 critical chemical values that affect ALL pool water: chlorine, pH, and stabilizer. With pH, if you are between 7 & 8, you're generally fine. With stabilizer, if you are between 20 & 100, we can tell you how to operate.

SO, there's not really a CORRECT value for either pH or stabilizer. BUT, there is an important CORRECT chlorine level for you pool.

Unfortunately for you, your stabilizer level is what 'sets' that chlorine value. And, since we don't know what that stabilizer level is, because you are using the miserable 'goofy-strips' sold everywhere, we CAN'T know what the "RIGHT" chlorine level is for your pool!

This leads to all sorts of problems . . . and all sorts of wasteful and expensive chemical purchases. (Guess why the pool biz likes cheap test strips? So they can sell you expensive and useless chemicals!)

We can kinda, sorta, tell you what to do . . . but it's a matter of 'guess, try, and adjust' rather than "Do this". If you want to do a better job, you can get an expensive (sorta) test kit, and stop using so many expensive chemicals. The Taylor K2006 is the least expensive, and works fine. LaMotte makes a kit with DPD/FAS testing as well. There's a link to Amazon sold Taylor kits in my signature.

Meanwhile:

#1 - Run your pump & filter 24/7.
#2 - Add chlorine in the evening till you get to an orange-yellow reading on your OTO kit.
#3 - Wait a day - if that doesn't kill the algae (cloudy blue-gray, instead of cloudy green), add more chlorine to get to orange on your OTO kit.
#4 - Once you reach an EFFECTIVE chlorine level, hold that level for several days and BRUSH and vacuum your pool to stir up and kill any algae clumps or films.
#5 - After the algae has been dead for a couple of days, the pool should be noticeably clearer -- maybe even clear. If it's not, we'll have to look to see why your filter is not working well.

If you get a K2006, test your pool, and tell us what you find. We'll then be able to do a much better job of telling you how to operate your pool. By the way, the "Best Guess" page, also linked in my sig, explains the whole chlorine/CYA relationship.

Good luck!

[BoredOne]

Ok I kinda have a number for stabilizer. I brought water samples to 2 different places to get tested. One place tells me that its between 15 and 20 the other place tells me its fine its at 100 our something.however the water was sitting I'm the car fire a while before we got that tested. My mother and brother came in the store for the second one and they will believe anything so they of course got sold an arm and a leg and we left with 4 gallons of liquid chlorine chlorine tablets and algaecide because they refuse to listen to me.. So if I had to guess it would be 15-20. Would the 4 gallons be enough for one day our do we need more..

[PoolDoc]

Ok I kinda have a number for stabilizer. I brought water samples to 2 different places to get tested. One place tells me that its between 15 and 20 the other place tells me its fine its at 100 our something

In other words, we really don't have any idea. Hot cars shouldn't affect stabilizer readings.

It looks like it's a plaster pool. If it is, you can go ahead and do this:

#1 - Test the pH and make sure it's in range (7.0 - 7.8)
#2 - Run the pump 24/7 (should already be doing that!)
#3 - Add 8 gallons of PLAIN 6% bleach to the pool.
#4 - Repeat the following evening.

That will be sufficient chlorine to clear up the algae even if the stabilizer is 100 ppm.

DO NOT DO THIS IF YOUR POOL IS VINYL!!

If your pool is vinyl, you MUST find out what your stabilizer level is.

[BoredOne]

Well I was running the pool pump 24h a day however it just want having it.. Today the motor is turned off looks like it seized up again.. So I as will as my pool are at a stand still unless pumps turn off if it gets to hot..

[aylad]

You can still add the chlorine around the perimeter of the pool, but go behind it to stir it up well in the water--clean broom, boat paddle, etc. However, you're not going to be able to filter the dead algae out of the pool until you get a working pump...

Janet

[PoolDoc]

At this point, unless your pump is just overheating due to high outside temps and poor air circulation, which you might be able to fix by some clean up and a fan . . . you have a choice.

#1 - You can work on the pump and forget about the pool till the pump is running.

OR

#2 - You can run go buy a new pump, install it ASAP and keep working on the pool.


It's just not practical to clean up a pool with no working filtration system. Sorry.

[BoredOne]

At this point, unless your pump is just overheating due to high outside temps and poor air circulation, which you might be able to fix by some clean up and a fan . . . you have a choice.

#1 - You can work on the pump and forget about the pool till the pump is running.

OR

#2 - You can run go buy a new pump, install it ASAP and keep working on the pool.


It's just not practical to clean up a pool with no working filtration system. Sorry.

Good News!! We got a brand new pump! Wow, its the same exact brand/model pump and I didn't realize it could be so quiet lol.. Its definently running better there seemed to be a slight air leak with the last one so the skimmer for it was never fully just water as there had been air pockets.. However no longer a problem. We also got a brand new filter cartridge. The old one was just falling apart and doing a horrible job filtering.. I mean you'd brush the bottom and you can see the waste come back through the jets..

I'm not at this point yet however I need some advice as to how to properly vacuum.. As I don't have a valve to block whats being vacuumed to go through the filter. Also do you take the basket out of the pump to vacuum so all the waste doesn't clog it up so quickly?

To see what the plumbing looks like I drew up a quick mspaint photo.. This is as far as I understand..

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8784/unledgvv.jpg

I figure just turn off the 2 valves for return and jets then open the valve for the waste then turn on the pump?

[PoolDoc]

Yes, from your drawing, it looks like that would work.

I'd recommend that, if you can, you remove the solar heater loop connection completely, and pipe straight to that return, so you can have full use of the circulation system.

[BoredOne]

Yes, from your drawing, it looks like that would work.

I'd recommend that, if you can, you remove the solar heater loop connection completely, and pipe straight to that return, so you can have full use of the circulation system.

Actually the picture is a little off.. The solar heater is right before both outlets.. So it goes up and through that first then back to the chlorine feeder then out the return/jets.. Removing the heater loop really isn't viable at this point in time.. Nor probably in the near future..


http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8784/unledgvv.jpg

So this is more what it looks like..

Also you didn't answer about the hair basket.. What do you do with this? I'd imagine from vacuming it'd get filled extremely fast, as it was from just sweeping it was getting filled were it was completely black.. I don't think the little cap thing is on the thing in the deep part of the pool..

[PoolDoc]

Not sure what "hair basket" you're talking about . . . or what the "little cap thing on the thing" is. ;)

Ben

[BoredOne]

Not sure what "hair basket" you're talking about . . . or what the "little cap thing on the thing" is. ;)

Ben

The hair basket skimmer thing that is on the pool pump.. It goes through that before getting sucked up into the filter.. the cap thing is the thing that you put on the drain in the deep end of the pool so large things don't get sucked into it..

So today I cleaned out my filter and instead of being green it was more of a brownish tint, is that a good thing? Or does that mean the color came out of the algae from all the chlorine thats in the pool? I've taken your advice and the color of the chlorine test is a dark orange.. I just added 4 gallons of 10% yesterday evening.. I'll be getting the 2 2.5gal buckets from pinch a penny to have those on standby hopefully today.. Other than that I'm just waiting for the pool to clear up a bit.. Every time I sweep it goes from being like a bluish grey to a bluish green so there is still tons of crap on the bottom that I want to vacuum as soon as I can start seeing whats down there.. Cause I know for sure there is an old skimmer at the bottom somewhere, but I'm not about to dive in to find it, and trying to get it out with my brush proves pointless..

As for the PH its ~7.2

[PoolDoc]

OK. The pump strainer basket, and the main drain cover. Don't think I'd offer to swim down to get that, either.

Dead algae is brown, so that's probably a good thing. Continuing to keep the chlorine high is the right thing to do, especially if you have piles of algae. Otherwise, the pile will consume the chlorine when you brush up the algae, and leave you with a pool no chlorine and lots of live algae -- NOT a good thing.

Just FYI: when you have layers of algae like you describe, the total consumption of chlorine, before you finish, can be enormous. So, don't be surprised.

[BoredOne]

Ok my mspaint skills not that great.. =) However I do have pictures to better give an idea of the setup I have..

A link to the page that has 6 images..

http://imageshack.us/g/689/20110912184709.jpg/

Pump = Flotec AT251001-01 1HP
Filter = Sta-rite Posi-flo II PTM70
Chlorine Feeder = Hayward 4.2 cl110/100?
Current Pool Status = Still cleaning out dead algae, bluish grey? Fairly Cloudy, can see second step and slight shadow on the floor of the shallow end..

[BoredOne]

Alright I've gotten to the point that I can see fairly well in the deep end.. As I've been able to nearly see the drain.. However its still fairly cloudy what steps should I take to clear this up? Also I seem to be gaining a fair bit of sand.. I don't know if this is from the bottom of the pool or if a line broke. Cause I also seem to be losing a bit of water, tho I thought that might also be because of when I clean out the filter I drain the water out of it to clean that up a bit..

[PoolDoc]

Sorry -- too many "maybe's" in there for me to offer any suggestions.

You can always vacuum up the sand, and see if it reappears. If it does -- and if you have a sand filter -- then your filter needs some repairs.

[BoredOne]

No I have a cartridge filter.. For now lets focus on clearing up this pool.. How to go about that? I can see fairly well to the bottom of the deep end however its just not crystal clear..

[PoolDoc]

It's a function of time, filtration, and vacuuming.

You should think about clearing it AFTER you are pretty sure all the algae is dead. ALL the algae.

The key ingredient here is P.O.P. -- pool owner patience, or sometimes, pool owner persistence.

If you get impatient or in a hurry, and go buy some "floc" or other pool store chemicals, you can *sometimes* speed things up. But, there's some skill involved -- doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time -- and also some luck, because different 'blends' of muck react differently with various types of floc. Experienced pool service guys can usually be successful with this stuff, particularly when they've gotten used to working successfully with a particular product. But what happens, more often than now, when pool OWNERS use that stuff is that they make it worse, not better.

And, it's possible to make it MUCH worse. Many clarifiers actually work in reverse, suspending guck rather than sinking it, or making fine particles harder to filter rather than easier, if you misuse them.

[BoredOne]

It's a function of time, filtration, and vacuuming.

You should think about clearing it AFTER you are pretty sure all the algae is dead. ALL the algae.

The key ingredient here is P.O.P. -- pool owner patience, or sometimes, pool owner persistence.

If you get impatient or in a hurry, and go buy some "floc" or other pool store chemicals, you can *sometimes* speed things up. But, there's some skill involved -- doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time -- and also some luck, because different 'blends' of muck react differently with various types of floc. Experienced pool service guys can usually be successful with this stuff, particularly when they've gotten used to working successfully with a particular product. But what happens, more often than now, when pool OWNERS use that stuff is that they make it worse, not better.

And, it's possible to make it MUCH worse. Many clarifiers actually work in reverse, suspending guck rather than sinking it, or making fine particles harder to filter rather than easier, if you misuse them.

Well much to my surprise this morning I wasn't really feeling great so I left the pool alone, later in the evening I went out to check on it while there was still some day light left and the pool was actually fairly crystal clear.. I can see all the grime that is kinda stuck to the floor of the deep end and can see perfectly that the drain does in fact have a grate thingy on it.. Also pulled out a screw driver that I guess the previous owners through in..

However while testing my levels I seem to be having troubles determining the correct levels on this chemical test..

The Chlorine looks like its 3.0 Tho my mother thinks its at 5.0.. As for the PH this image doesn't really do it to much justice as I thought it was 7.6 while it looks like in the picture a 7.8 Suppose I can do an acid test on that and compare.. However for the Chlorine how can I be more sure? Its been slowly degrading over the few days as I havn't added more chlorine in, tho I'm thinking about doing another shock..

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/378/20110918231520.jpg

As for the pool it looks better than this, I think it looks a little cloudy because I spent the night vacuuming it so small dust might have popped up..

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3061/20110918231710.jpg

[aylad]

If you've just gotten it clear, I wouldn't let the chlorine drop just uet, otherwise you'll find yourself back at square one. You need to maintain that "shock" level til the green is gone and you're not losing any chlorine overnight.

Janet

[BoredOne]

If you've just gotten it clear, I wouldn't let the chlorine drop just uet, otherwise you'll find yourself back at square one. You need to maintain that "shock" level til the green is gone and you're not losing any chlorine overnight.

Janet

Well it doesn't actually have that green color at all.. Its actually very clear, and the chlorine level seems to stay at the same level.. Its been slowly going down since I shocked it like last week, havn't added chlorine in about a week and its still at about that level..

[PoolDoc]

Actually, it looks like 5+ and 7.6 to me . . . but I'm kinda ignoring the testkit color blocks and just looking at the solutions. :)

[BoredOne]

I would edit my latest post, but I still gotta wait for admin to add it, so I'm making another post.. The guess strips as you guys call it show my Total Chlorine at 3, but my Free Chlorine at 10 or even over.. Umm dunno what this means for me tho I thought I'd share for you'd have the info..

[Watermom]

FC + CC = TC so the numbers you gave in the last post aren't possible. (Part of the reason we call them guess strips!)

[ corrected typo => changed 2nd CC to TC ]

[BoredOne]

Well I brought a sample to pinch a penny to get tested, these are the results of the printout they gave me..

TC 4.0
FC 4.0
CC 0? Maybe they didn't put this one in?
pH 7.4
Alkalinity 120ppm
Calcium Hardness 155ppm
Stabilizer 50ppm
TDS 1200ppm

It states I need to raise my CH with 11.7 pounds of Suncoast Calcium Hardness Increaser..

I havn't bought anything yet cause I wanted to come here and see what you thought..

Also when will I not have to wait on an admin for everything? Wanted to add the basic info about my pool in my sig but I can't access my account info..

[PoolDoc]

+ Don't even think about adding calcium, till you have a K2006 or equivalent (LaMotte?), and have accurate test results.

+ Like Watermom *meant*, FC + CC = TC. If CC is 0, then FC = TC.

+ Right now, the only consistent way to get out of "Restricted" status is to subscribe. That will probably change some time before summer 2012, but I don't have a definite date.

[BoredOne]

+ Don't even think about adding calcium, till you have a K2006 or equivalent (LaMotte?), and have accurate test results.

+ Like Watermom *meant*, FC + CC = TC. If CC is 0, then FC = TC.

+ Right now, the only consistent way to get out of "Restricted" status is to subscribe. That will probably change some time before summer 2012, but I don't have a definite date.

Honestly right now we just don't have the extra money to spend on an $80 testing kit.. Which is why I went to pinch a penny to get a test, as far as I can tell they've got all the testing equipment and then some that the k2006 kit comes with, and the calcium level seems appropriate being that we are getting orangy stains around the pool, especially areas that I've swept out coins you can clearly see the circular outline of the coins.. I've pulled out coins, tools, even a battery from this pool.. Think what I'll do is they have this thing were they'll come out to your pool and evaluate it.. So they have a fresh sample of water instead of the one I have been holding for 20min to the store.. Tho I don't see why their test wouldn't be accurate?

[Watermom]

+ Like Watermom *meant*, FC + CC = TC. If CC is 0, then FC = TC.


Yep. That's what I meant. Thanks for catching my typo!

[PoolDoc]

If Pinch a Penny is using liquid reagents, it's quite possible that their test is reasonably accurate.

[BigDave]

I'd be willing to bet that the "we'll come out to your pool and evaluate it" will result in suggestions (possibly quite insistent) for chems that will cost alot more than the K-2006. Maybe I'm wrong (and this site is an exception) but there's not alot of altruism in the pool biz, and probably none in a "free service" that's baked into a corporate operating procedure.

I also seriously doubt that the water changes much in 20 minutes.

[PoolDoc]

I also seriously doubt that the water changes much in 20 minutes.

If you collect it with NO air space in a CLEAN plastic or glass container, and keep it reasonably cool, it doesn't change quickly.

[BigDave]

Fair enough.
My point still is: Inviting the pool store over may well cost more than buying a K-2006. Based on the presumption that "free" is never really free.

[PoolDoc]

I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, Dave. Just adding a testing comment about how to avoid changes in tested water.

Thanks,

Ben

[BigDave]

I didn't mean to be defensive, just to emphasize the importance and value of regular testing and monitoring.

Clearly you're right, laboratory practice is important. You wouldn't get good results if you sucked down a bottle of coke, dipped it in the pool half filling it with the top water, capped it, and let it sit in the bed of the truck in the hot sun (at noon?) on the way to the PS.

[PoolDoc]

You might be surprised how close to that some people come -- I've seen a little of that, but I bet Waterbear & Waste, having worked in stores, have seen that a LOT.

[CarlD]

I didn't mean to be defensive, just to emphasize the importance and value of regular testing and monitoring.

Clearly you're right, laboratory practice is important. You wouldn't get good results if you sucked down a bottle of coke, dipped it in the pool half filling it with the top water, capped it, and let it sit in the bed of the truck in the hot sun (at noon?) on the way to the PS.

Dang! I gotta stop doing that. I might even mess up my truck bed!:rolleyes:

[BoredOne]

If Pinch a Penny is using liquid reagents, it's quite possible that their test is reasonably accurate.

Back on topic, they do use liquid reagents, and just record it on the computer.. And thats how I got the printout.. Other than that everything else came out fine.. Like I said, or like I think I said, it kinda makes sense cause we are starting to get stains within the pool.. The paint seems to be even coming off or thinning out.. Which is why it makes sense.. However, at least I think 11 pounds is a little much, or is that the correct amount needed? Or would be needed being the tests are 100% accurate..