Help - brown stinky dark murky pool

[pairadocs]

Just opened it this year, second year of pool, and it is gross.

Can't see the bottom, thick brown, dark murky mess. Was covered with elephant cover all winter (Delaware) and professionaly:confused: closed by pool company.

Pool is 30,000 gallon, concrete, 2 yr old with DE filter.

water test at Leslies pool store:

Free Chlorine = 0, yes zero

ph 8.0

TA 120

Calcium hardness 190

CYA 25
TDS 500

My problem is that I don't know what to do next. First added 20 pounds of pH lowering stuff, then, later, added 4 bottles of bleach, 4 gallons. Then, later added 1/3 gallon of algaecide polyquat brown liquid stuff.

How quick for pool to look clearer? When can I see bottom?

Filter is running and chlorine pucks are in...

what next?

this forum is great, but there is so much to read that I get lost easily.

[KurtV]

Start by vaccuuming to waste the brown stuff on the bottom, adding enough muriatic acid or dry acid to get your pH down to between 7.2 and 7.8 (if using muriatic acid I'd start with about three cups, test a few hours later, and repeat as necessary), and get some chlorine in your pool. Repeat the vacuuming daily until clear.

The pucks you're using are probably tri-chlor and if they are they contain cyanuric acid (CYA aka stabilizer). That's OK but you need to monitor your CYA levels regularly if you're using those. You're likely to have a very high demand for chlorine because of all the junk in your pool. Most people here use ordinary, unscented household bleach to chlorinate with.

Regardless of what chlorination method you use, you need to raise your chlorine to shock levels until the pool will hold free chlorine overnight. Ben's Best Guess Table (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365) calls for 6-15 ppm for your CYA level. You can download BleachCalc, written by mwsmith, one of the members here, to determine how much bleach to add to get to your desired chlorine level (http://www.hal-pc.org/~mwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe (http://www.hal-pc.org/%7Emwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe)). If you go that route you should stop using the puck feeder while you're using bleach.

I'd shoot for about 10 ppm free chlorine if I were you (again, table recommends 6-15 ppm) and keep bringing it back to that level until it holds overnight. It's best if you can test several times per day (e.g. morning, after work, and right before going to bed) and add enough bleach to bring it back up to 10 ppm after each test (or whatever level you decide on).

Good luck.

[duraleigh]

Doc,

I am going to assume that test was after all the stuff you added. If not, you'll need to post new numbers and disregard what I say.

Download mwsmith2's calc from any of his posts and learn how to calc Cl using bleach and how much muriatic to add to lower your pH

Get some muriatic acid at Lowes/HD and keep your pH in the 7.2 - 7.6 range. Do that first.

You are going to need a truckload of bleach!! Bring your Cl level up to about 16--20ppm and KEEP IT THERE through the whole process. Run your pump 24/7. Don't be surprised if you don't have to add more Cl every 6 hours to get back up to 16-20ppm.

Constantly keeping your Cl at high levels will clear your pool. You will need to clean that DE filter many times during clean-up as the pressure builds.......I have a sand filter and can't advise you on that.

Keep a close eye on your pH. The calculator will tell you how much muriatic you need to lower it .2.

This process may take several days....it depends on how willing you are to test and add bleach as needed.

I understand what you say about getting lost....that's enough info for now. Get a test kit (not strips) that will test for pH, Cl (at least to 5ppm), and Alk for now. We'll adjust your other numbers later.

Trust this process. It may take longer than you like but you'll get there if you stick with it. Don't get distracted by peripheral issues or pool store products. This is all you'll need for now. :)

PS...Kurt and I posted at the same time....Kurt, I'm recommending the high Cl level because A) it's a concrete pool and B) If the water is that murky, the ppm will never get to it's target level. It will be consumed very rapidly and a dose of about 20 may only get to 15ppm and then start back down. Like Kurt said, I'd get rid of the pucks. they're simply a distraction an will eventually add too much CYA to your pool.

[CarlD]

To raise your FC 5.25ppm, you need 3 gallons of regular bleach. Therefore 4 wasn't enough. I would have added 9 gallons of regular bleach, or 1.5 gallons of 12% (if you can get fresh liquid chlorine).

You'll need to raise FC to 15 2 to 3 times a day.

[pairadocs]

To raise your FC 5.25ppm, you need 3 gallons of regular bleach. Therefore 4 wasn't enough. I would have added 9 gallons of regular bleach, or 1.5 gallons of 12% (if you can get fresh liquid chlorine).

You'll need to raise FC to 15 2 to 3 times a day.

Thank you all for the quick replies.

Carl - I added 4 gallons of regular household bleach. I guess I need 5 more. Will do and retest in tomorrow.

Duraleigh - the numbers I posted were actually before anything was added, so I did as you instructed, and disregarded what you posted.

Curt - I can't vacuum! because I can't see the bottom of the pool. INstead I tried brushing the side walls.

When will I be able to see the bottom?

What about algicide polyquat stuff?

What is this brown dark haze lingering top to bottom in my pool keeping me from seeing the bottom? Is it algae?

thanks again. I'll keep checking back and reading more. Will try to do the calc thing, but i'm not to optimistic that i will be successful in computing that stuff. I'm more of a tell-me-how-much-of-what-and-I'll-do-what-you-say kinda guy

[pairadocs]

Doc,


Download mwsmith2's calc from any of his posts and learn how to calc Cl using bleach and how much muriatic to add to lower your pH

Get some muriatic acid at Lowes/HD and keep your pH in the 7.2 - 7.6 range. Do that first.

.

I added 20 pounds of dryacid (sodium bisulfate) stuff from pool store first.

HOw does this compare to muriatic acid?

Should I switch to MA if the ph isn't holding in the range suggested on tomorrow's test?

Why is MA better when compared to the stuff I used?

Thanks again.

[duraleigh]

:)

Doc,

None of your questions are pertinent if you are not able to calculate the correct quantities you need to clear your water.

[pairadocs]

Like Kurt said, I'd get rid of the pucks. they're simply a distraction an will eventually add too much CYA to your pool.

I don't understand why i need to get rid of the pucks?

I thought CYA helps keep the chlorine from breaking down to fast and leaving me high and dry without any chlorine???

If you say so, I will remove the pucks in the morning. I figured they wouldn't do a whole lot anyway because it is cool here in Delaware, and the pucks seem to dissolve so slowly when it is cold water.

Confused

[pairadocs]

:)

Doc,

None of your questions are pertinent if you are not able to calculate the correct quantities you need to clear your water.

Gee, thanks - If I was able to do that, then I wouldn't be here on this forum looking for help. INstant mathematician this forum does not make, maybe you it did, but not me, not yet. I'm just looking for help, trying to learn from others who are helpful, and probably had the same questions as me initially.

[Watermom]

I wish I could give you an answer to your question about muriatic acid vs. sodium bisulfate, but I don't know anything about sodium bisulfate. However, I will say that you are definitely at the right place for some help. There are lots of people on this forum who are willing to help. Hopefully somebody will come along soon who will know the difference between the two. By the way, welcome to the forum.

[duraleigh]

Your reluctance to use the bleach calc implied to me you wouldn't be willing to do the work this would take. Read everything you can on this forum to start.

Since your test numbers were before you added the things in your first post, you'll need to post up some new numbers for Free Chlorine, Combined Chlorine, pH, Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness and Cyanurid Acid. That'll give us a baseline that we all can work from. :)

[waterbear]

Muriatic acid is more efficient and less costly than dry acid but it is not as nice to work with. It's biggest plus is that it is only adding chloride ions to the pool while dry acid (sodium bisulfate) will add sulfate ions to the pool. There has been some indication in some quarters that sulfates can possibly damage plaster but the jury seems to still be out on that and many people have used dry acid for years with no problems.

IMHO, put as little extra stuff in your water that you can and use the most efficient and economical product to get the job done. For lowering pH that would be muriatic acid.l

[pairadocs]

Muriatic acid is more efficient and less costly than dry acid but it is not as nice to work with. It's biggest plus is that it is only adding chloride ions to the pool while dry acid (sodium bisulfate) will add sulfate ions to the pool. There has been some indication in some quarters that sulfates can possibly damage plaster but the jury seems to still be out on that and many people have used dry acid for years with no problems.

IMHO, put as little extra stuff in your water that you can and use the most efficient and economical product to get the job done. For lowering pH that would be muriatic acid.l

Thank you for the kind, simple, and informative answer. It's nice to know there are forum members like you that newbs can rely on.



My plan is to test the water tomorrow morning, but these questions are just driving me nuts. Really, the brown mudhole of a pool is driving me nuts.:eek: :confused: :(

Carl - I did what you said, and added 9 gallons of regular household bleach, and have added sodium bisulfate acid to lower pH from 8 to hopefully a better range.

I'm still left wondering the following:

Why should I remove the pucks? How troublesome is it to leave them in - I take it they may cause trouble with balancing and calculations, right?

When to put the pucks back in? - Is the answer to that not until pool is clear and balanced?

Is the brown pool most likely due to 'green' algae?

If this is algae, is polyquat not effective enough since it is more algaestatic than algaecidal?

Is the best algae killer chlorine and proper pH? Or should I search out a better algae killer specific product?

Can't wait for the sun to come up sunday and continue my pursuit of a clear pool:D

[waterbear]

I don't understand why i need to get rid of the pucks?

I thought CYA helps keep the chlorine from breaking down to fast and leaving me high and dry without any chlorine???

If you say so, I will remove the pucks in the morning. I figured they wouldn't do a whole lot anyway because it is cool here in Delaware, and the pucks seem to dissolve so slowly when it is cold water.

Confused You do need CYA in your pool but the problem with pucks (and other forms of stabiized chlorine) is that as you continue to use them your CYA levels also continue to rise. This means that you then have to raise your FC level to compensate for the high CYA levels to keep enough ACTIVE (and not bound up the the stabilizer...CYA) in your pool which then adds more CYA, etc.:eek: It is certainly ok to use the pucks as long as your CYA levels are low but once they get too high you will either need to partially drain or switch to a non stabilized chlorine. Many (if not most) people on the forum choose to add the required amount of stabilizer to the water and then chlorinate with non stabilized chlorine (bleach being the first choice). It is a very ecomonical and easy route to go. Once again, here is the link for Ben's (PoolDoc) best guess chart for CYA which will help explain the relationship between your CYA level and the amount of chlorine you need at different CYA levels for normal sanitation and for shocking
(http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365)

if you haven't already done so I would download mwsmith2's bleachcalc program as suggested. It allows you to calculate how much bleach, acid, bicarbonate, etc. you need to put into your pool to get it where it needs to be and it is very easy to use. It will make your life much easier! Here is the link again
http://www.hal-pc.org/~mwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe (http://www.hal-pc.org/%7Emwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe)

A few other thoughts...
The advice you have been given so far is sound and the posters helping you are experienced ones. It might seem overwhelming at first but if you just follow it your pool will clear.
I would suggest getting a good drop based test kit and testing your own water! The one sold on the sister website www.poolsolutions.com (http://www.poolsolutions.com) is probably the best 'bang for your buck' (kit PS 234) but there are also excellent kits from Taylor and LaMotte. You want a kit that will check:
Free Chlorine
Total Chlorine
(These two tests are most accurately done with the FAS-DPD test which is a titration test and can read high levels of chlorine but a DPD test (uses a color comparator block) is ok as long as your chlorine levels don't get very high. These tests have a pink color when testing. The other chlorine test is OTO which gives a yellow color and only tests Total Chlorine...good for quick checks on your normal chlorine levels, however)
pH
Total Alkalinity
Calcium Hardness
CYA
You can pick up an inexpensive 5 way kit from Walmart (about $15) but it uses OTO and will only test total chlorine even though the directions say otherwise and there are some problems with the calcium hardness test that might make it's results unreliable but it is certainly better than no kit or even worse, test strips!:eek:

The brown water is most likely from algae. If the pool was covered all winter then it got no sun which is what algae needs to produce chlorophyll so you probably have brownish varieties growing.
IMHO, your first line of defense against algae should be chlorine. If there are a lot of organics in your pool it might take a LOT of chlorine to burn them all up but it will work. Try to get as much stuff out of the pool as you can manually. If you can't see the bottom to vacumn to waste try using a leaf net to get as much stuff off of the bottom that you can. Hit your pool hard and often with chlorine (bleach) and it will start to clear as the other posters have suggested. If you don't believe it check out these picture in the first post in this thread of Duraliegh's pool!
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=1300

Keep an eye on your filter pressure. DE filters can clog quickly with an algae problem and you might need to backwash it fairly often as the pool clears.

Keep the faith, have a little patience, and you WILL be swimming soon!
Hope this has been helpful.

[pairadocs]

downloaded and played around with it. checked the cya chart too.

thank you for the assistance as it is slowly starting to come together in my head.

your explanations are very helpful and provide clarity to my mind, and hopefully my pool.

tomorrow i will be on the hunt for cheap bleach, because it sounds like I will be needing a ton of gallons before this brown is gone.....

[pairadocs]

Thanks to all of your suggestions, I am happy to say I awoke to a pool that is no longer brown.

Overnight, 10 ga of bleach and 4 bags of AquaChem shock plus (found it in the pool chemical shed so I used it, don't know exactly what it is), the pool is a nice aquamarine color. Anything is better than mud brown.

I am very thankful for you all taking the time to help me.

I will be water sampling later this AM.

Water is still sooooo murky cloudy that I can't see the bottom despite all night filtering? Backwash time?

[Watermom]

Backwash time is whenever your filter pressure has increased by about 8-10psi. Continue doing what you have been doing - maintaining the high chlorine readings and running your pump 24/7. Glad it is looking better. Keep at it. It'll clear.

[pairadocs]

Backwash time is whenever your filter pressure has increased by about 8-10psi. Continue doing what you have been doing - maintaining the high chlorine readings and running your pump 24/7. Glad it is looking better. Keep at it. It'll clear.

My filter pressure is about 25. Problem is that I don't know where it started at, so I don't know if it has increased by 8-10 psi???

[KurtV]

... and 4 bags of AquaChem shock plus (found it in the pool chemical shed so I used it, don't know exactly what it is)...

Paira, You run a high risk of causing yourself problems if you continue to add things to your pool without knowing what they are and what they will do. Your choice, obviously.

[pairadocs]

Paira, You run a high risk of causing yourself problems if you continue to add things to your pool without knowing what they are and what they will do. Your choice, obviously.

thank you for making me feel even more clueless.

It was shock, as the bag name I wrote says. I needed to shock as directed by all other posters, and it worked, as evidenced by my overnight change from brown to aquamarine, a more hospitable color.

From the standpoint of not knowing what it was, I mean that it had a chemical formula name longer than supercalafragilisticexpyalidocious.

could you really make a brown mudbog pool worse? If so, don't tell me how.

[waterbear]

thank you for making me feel even more clueless.

It was shock, as the bag name I wrote says. I needed to shock as directed by all other posters, and it worked, as evidenced by my overnight change from brown to aquamarine, a more hospitable color.

From the standpoint of not knowing what it was, I mean that it had a chemical formula name longer than supercalafragilisticexpyalidocious.

could you really make a brown mudbog pool worse? If so, don't tell me how. It could possibly make it worse. It is never a good idea to put anything into your pool if you don't really know what it is. Some things that seem like they might be the right thing could be disasterous if used improperly or at the wrong time...and some products can cause more and bigger problems then the problem they are supposed to solve! I tried to look up the MSDS for it on the net to see what was in it but couldn't find it. If you would post the indgredient list it would be helpful. From what I was able to read about it I suspect it was a monopersulfate based shock with a flocculant in it.
As far as your filter pressure goes, I would suggest backwashing it and adding a bit more DE powder (check the manual for how much your make and model takes...if you don't have the manual post the make and model and ask for help.)

People on here are really trying to help you but you are not really listening to them. It is your choice whether you want to follow their advice or not but you have a lot to gain (and will learn a lot in the process) if you do.
Just take baby steps for now as you learn about how to care for your pool and soon you will see all the pieces fit together nicely. Paitience is a key word with pool care. Quick fixes don't always work but approaching problems methodically with tried and true methods (that sometimes take a bit of time and effort) do!

[PoolDoc]

Your reluctance to use the bleach calc implied to me you wouldn't be willing to do the work this would take. Read everything you can on this forum to start.

Uh-h, Dave "implied to me" pretty much equals 'assumed'.

I 'assume' :p you are familiar with the little pun on ASS-U-ME?

I have done it. I'm pretty sure all the moderators have done it. And, now, you've done it, too.

Please be careful; newbies are just that, and I have a strict 'be nice to newbies' rule here.

It doesn't make any difference how 'educated' someone is in other areas; when it's new to you, it confusing no matter what your background is. In years past, 'newbies' here have included well, actual "rocket scientists" from JPL. And, they asked the same (well, no . . . ALMOST the same) questions as everyone else.

Granted, sometimes newbies need to be told to "go do what I told you to do, and don't come back till you've done it". But . . .

RULE #1: Never, EVER say it that way!
RULE #2: PM me or one of the moderators first.
RULE #3: Watch your 'tone' (I know, 'tone' is a property of spoken, not written language, but I assume :rolleyes:you know what I mean.)
RULE #4: Never rebuke a newbie the first time it's deserved; always wait until the second time. (If it's a really egregious faux pas or rules violation, please "Alert" me).
RULE #5: If you think you have to 'rebuke' someone, see RULE #2 first.

Oh, yeah.

RULE #6: Before you ass-u-me that someone needs a good ol' slap on the head, RE-read their post CAREFULLY. Otherwise, you might act too quickly, and end up being the 'equine' of the non-horsey type. (Been there, done that, got the egg-on-the-face to show for it!)

Thanks,

Dave

[KurtV]

thank you for making me feel even more clueless.

It was shock, as the bag name I wrote says. I needed to shock as directed by all other posters, and it worked, as evidenced by my overnight change from brown to aquamarine, a more hospitable color.

Paiardocs, I was trying to help you; I certainly wasn't trying to offend you or make you feel clueless.

There are many kinds of "shock" and some of them, as Waterbear has explained, could make your situation worse. I'm glad it didn't (yet) in your particular case.

[CarlD]

Pairadocs,
Let me put my two cents in.
"Shock". This an action, not an additive. You couldn't know that as a newbie, but pool chem companies write that on labels so that lots and lots of pool owners think it's a thing, not an action. You are not alone in this. We are battling their efforts to keep you in a constant state of terror if you don't regularly add lots of exotic-sounding and expensive chemicals.

The bottom line is you don't need most of them, even when you are battling a horrific algae bloom that's turned your pool into a toxic science experiment.

To shock a pool (I don't really like the term at all) is simply to raise your sanitation well above normal maintenance levels to kill anything and everthing that could be growing. There's lots of things you can add to to this, good, bad, and terrible. That's why we suggest you always check what they are calling "shock" before you add it.

Another trick pool chem companies do is simply package a pre-measured dose of a chemical into a bag and call it "shock". Most often, it's nothing more than an expensive way to buy di-chlor or cal-hypo powder that you can buy in bulk.

Here is what I've seen called shock--other folks feel free to chime in!
Di-chlor shock. Same as Di-chlor in a bucket. Adds chlorine nicely but also adds CYA and lowers pH. However, it's not as drastic to CYA or pH as Tri-chlor pucks. Unfortunately, you may find some coming marked "double acting", meaning they are loaded with copper. Don't use this, ever.

Cal-Hypo shock. This is cal-hypo powder. Sometimes it's 68% chlorine--the good stuff at better pool stores, or it's 48% chlorine--the cheap garbage that HTH is pushing on the discount houses. Adds calcium AND can temporarily make your water milky. If your calcium level is elevated, it can cause scaling or milk-colored pool water.

Liquid Shock: USUALLY, this is just liquid chlorine--ie, bleach. Sometimes it's 6%--which is just Ultra bleach. Sometimes it's 12 or 12.5% listed, but has probably deteriorated to 10% or less unless it's only been off the truck a day or two. OCCASIONALLY it is more economical to use this instead of bleach (then I buy it). Usually, it's not.

Sometimes Liquid Shock is NOT chlorine--using this in a chlorine pool can be SERIOUSLY problematic. I believe this is used only in bromine or bacquacil pools. Never, EVER add Liquid Shock if it isn't Sodium Hypochlorite--bleach--and nothing else.

Lithium Chloride. This is a new non-calcium, non-stabilized chlorine. It's absurdly expensive, is less than 50% active chlorine, and, is probably adding lithium to your water--a metal. I have NO idea the effect lithium metals have on pool water, but generally, only metals like calcium and sodium are OK. (we forget that Ca and Na are metals because we never see them that way--but they are greyish metals).

I use bleach to shock. Occasionally, I'll use the 12% liquid chlorine/bleach. Even more occasionally (like when I have no CYA and need some) I'll use di-chlor powder.

So, please, before you add something, if you don't know what is in it, ask us first, and we'll be happy to say "Sure, go ahead" or "NO! STOP! Don't add that $#!$!"