Need 2nd Opinion on % vs Volume vs $ calculation/assumptuion

[Sponge1971]

Hi Eh!

Up here (in the Great White North) Walmart doesn't have an Ultra Wally brand. (there is an Ultra Javex jug, but it's only 5% and $4?..can't remember since I'm not interested)

Walmart only sells a $2 - 5liter jug of 4% bleach (which is great, I guess, and pounds the ppm's into the stratoshere when you dump 4 jugs in during your initial fill...because you don't know any better...:o...boy, you should have seem the crazy neon pink in my testkit when I checked for FC...)

Anyway, here's my question:

I need to confirm my math on what is best the value for money between these two options:

1. Walmart - 5liters @ 4% = $2
2. PoolStore - 20liters @ 12% = $11

Here is what I think is true...but I need a fresh mind(s) to confirm:
- If I want 12% equivalence, from 4%...I need 3x more volume. So, 3liters of 4% is equivalent to 1liter of 12%. <- :confused: this is the cornerstone of my assumptions...

- based on the above assumption: to come up with the same 'punch' that 20liters @ 12% = $11 has...I would need 60liters @ 4% = 12 jugs = $24 total.

- It is far more cost effective for me to go with the PoolStore 12% jug. (even after the 1time $15 jug purchase).

Let me know what yous think...

[aylad]

It is more cost effective to go that route....IF it's actually 12% or more in strength. Depending on storage conditions and turnover rate, the 12% may or may not degrade. I'll have to find the link for it, but around here somewhere Carl (or maybe Waterbear?) concocted a way to test the percentage of chlorine actually in the jug. Let me search around some and see if I can find it, and will add it here.

Edit: Here it is... http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/archive/index.php/t-10167.html

[Sponge1971]

thanks! I'll go look at this and let you know what my jug is at...

I was thinking about shelf life. It is 'possible' that the Walmart jugs are way fresher...unless they warehouse for a year...but they still would be in a dark climate controlled box...if that makes any difference

[aylad]

But the difference is that lower concentrations of chlorine degrade slower than higher concentrations. I can't explain the chemistry behind it, but chem geek, pooldoc and a few others around here can. So even if the WalMart stock is not as fresh, it may well hold its concentration better than the 12%.

Janet

[giroup01]

You need to compare the quantity needed for 1 ppm in a 10 000 liter pool, you can take it from there.

The WalMart stuff, you need 250 mL of 4%, cost per ppm, $0,10
The pool store stuff, you need 83 mL of 12%, cost per ppm $0,05.

If you think of "cost per ppm" then it becomes very easy to determine if the price is good or bad or average.

Walmart probably has higher turnaround than the pool store, you could ask the pool store to check the actual chlorine content of the 12% stock (only 0,5 mL is needed if you use the Taylor bleach kit).

12% degrades much faster than the 4% stuff.

Bleach isn't necessarily cheaper by the way, Trévi has (had) cal hypo, 14 kg of 65% for $38, you need 15 grams for 1 ppm, cost per ppm $0,04.

I keep all that info in a spreadsheet, the Walmart bleach is actually one of the more expensive solutions to date, Trévi being the least expensive.

[CarlD]

1 milliliter of 12% added to 10 liters of water is the same ratio as adding 1 liter of 12% to 10,000 liters. (I usually do it in gallons but the ratios are exactly the same).
So test your tap water and get a baseline FC reading.
Then put 10 liters of tap water in a bucket (since even in the US 2-liter soda bottles are everywhere, 5 of those works).
I use a drug-store eyedropper (glass, of course) with measures on it already for 0.5 and 1.0 ml. Add 1ml of 12% to the 10 liters and mix it up. Let it sit for 10 or 15 minutes.
Measure with your K-2006 FAS-DPD test to find the chlorine level, and subtract the FC of the tap water.
The resulting measure is the actual concentration of your liquid chlorine.

(This comes from the formula for ppm: Parts per Million.
((1,000,000liters/10,000liters [pool volume]) * .12 * #liters of chlorine) = ppm, where .12 is 12% strength liquid chlorine. You can substitute .0525, .06, .105, or .125, depending on the claimed concentration. # Liters is assumed to be 1, but can be more. Again, it works just as well if you substitute gallons for liters everywhere. I simply reduced it from 1,000,000 liters to 1,000,000 milliliters, pool volume to 10,000ml and # Liters, becomes #ml.)

Carl

[Sponge1971]

Excellent Guidance!

My tap = 1.2ppm (did the high precision 0.2/drop measure)
My 10l & 1ml sample (blended and 10mins) = 11.5ppm (0.5/drop)

Bleach concentration = 11.5-1.2 = 10.3ppm = 10.3%

I guess that's not too bad. I never realised the conc could drop so much. I'll have to check again in a month, just to see the rate. There could/will be a point where other options would be more cost effective...depending on my consumption.

thanks Carl!

[CarlD]

Glad to help!

The higher the concentration the faster it can break down. Apparently, the solid blue carboys LC is sold in here in my area is really good at protecting the stuff.

Carl

[giroup01]

On the bleach bottle you read the % concentration of sodium hypochlorite.
What you are measuring is the concentration available chlorine content.

Not the same thing.

[CarlD]

On the bleach bottle you read the % concentration of sodium hypochlorite.
What you are measuring is the concentration available chlorine content.

Not the same thing.

What is the point of that?

The whole point of the calculation is to determine how much available chlorine the Bleach/Liquid Chlorine will deliver. Ultimately, that's what you need to sanitize your pool, and the concentration is merely a guide to get you there.

Parts Per Million added = (1,000,000 / pool volume) * (Bleach or LC Concentration (as a decimal)) * (amount of bleach or LC used)

If you add 1 ml of bleach or LC to 10 liters of water the resultant Parts Per Million measured, less the public water's residual FC is = to the concentration of the bleach bottle.

What's the problem?

Carl

[giroup01]

The point of that is that you'll read on the jug "Guarantee: Sodiun Hypochlorite: 10.8%" then when you test a fresh batch you'll come up with "Available chlorine content" of 10.3% and think the batch is not fresh.

The original poster is looking at 12% sodium hypo from the pool store and measures the chlorine content at 10.3% then comments "I guess that's not too bad. I never realised the conc could drop so much."

The 12% is sodium hypo concentration, the 10.3% is chlorine content, technically he's comparing two different things. (He also mentions "Bleach concentration = 11.5-1.2 = 10.3ppm = 10.3%", that's not bleach concentration, that's active chlorine concentration).

And also, keep in mind the "parts per million" is a weight to weight measure, you must consider the solution density in your formula. 12% bleach is heavier than 3% bleach.

All these details add up.

[Sponge1971]

:eek:

Don't want to start a battle here...and I'm absolutely not qualified to really understand the points being made. Formulas I can handle...

For what it's worth...I wanted to add +2ppmFC to my pool today (reading was3ppmFC). ThePoolCalculator said: "16oz of 10% bleach will raise 2ppmFC". I mixed in 2cups of what I have, in my yellow jug, and tonight my reading was up to 5ppmFC.
For What It's Worth...I use a Taylor k-2006 and run 10ml (0.5ppm/drop) samples on my pool water. I 'did' do a 0.2ppm test on my tap, because I 'know' that one is pretty low. As for Carl's test method, I started with a 0.2ppm test, but gave up after 20drops. I can't afford to waste my reagent like that. So I ran a 0.5ppm test on that water...so there is a +/- 0.5ppm resolution on that "%conc" (or whatever) reading.

To be fair, I never asked TheCalc what 12% amount I needed to go +2ppmFC...and with only a .5ppm resolution...I might not have noticed the difference anyway.

To me, Carl's testing method seems to work and makes sense since it's a titration method, just like the FC sampling I'm doing anyway. If this test ultimately gives me a reliable way to ensure proper dosing...I'm happy with it.
The way I understand it:
(I rounded the numbers, and ignored background FC, for simplicity)
- 1ml of my yellow jug = 10ppmFC in 10liters of 0ppmFC water.
- I only want 2ppmFC so I only need 1/5ml...so then:
- 0.2ml of my yellow jug = 2ppmFC in 10liters of 0ppmFC water.
- My pool is 20000liters (or...2000 x 10liter buckets)
- to get + 2ppmFC in my pool I need to add 2000 shots of 0.2ml from my yellow jug.
...or 2000 x 0.2 = 400ml (13.5oz) from my yellow jug.

That's close enough for me, and it seems to have worked...


So...does your's disagreement matter? ...since all this 'stuff' is labeled as % anyway? Even if the testing doesn't work out to a 'true %' reading...it is an indication of some sort...and that 'relationship' will translate across all the different 'stuff' available. 12% is Carl's 10...4% is Carl's 3.33333 ....as long as it's consistent...it's a reliable yardstick.
...let's not argue about it, if it's only a 'tomato' or 'tohmato' type of thing...
-or-
let's get el-super-brain ;) ChemGeek to referee this discrepancy...and help nail it down to ultimately come up with a take-it-to-the-bank solution to help everybody verify their 'stuff', to ensure cost effective dosing, maybe help protect us against unscrupulous vendors and just pile on another good reason to be part of this great forum and what it stands for.

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My whole point for this thread was to try and ensure my thought process was accurate in trying to determine the most cost effective way to chlorinate my pool.
As I have thought more about it: 'splitting hairs' could come down to how much time & gasoline I have to spend and how much storage space I need to achieve this chlorination. (Walmart is on my way home from work, would only cost me 15minutes of 'free' commute time, but easy-to-handle jugs take up valuable space in my shed...and my recycle bin.)(The Pool Store is completely out of my way, pretty much for any travel I do. So that's a 30-45 minute round trip + gasoline to fill up (a $15 cumbersome-to-handle jug I had to purchase) x-number of times a season, but is pretty compact in the shed.) There's still a few hairs to split if I want to get anal about it.
I *really* should grab one of those Walmart jugs and run Carl's test on it, to see what it is...and compare it from there. I'll never be able to control the 'freshness' factor and I'm certainly not going to test each jug...but maybe after a few random tests...I can get comfortable with what each option offers and put that part of the equation to bed. Also, I'm a first-timer, at the end of the season, with minimal bio-load...and I 'still' haven't made up a log book....so I can't reasonably expect to determine the frequency/amplitude of chlorination...which will have a huge impact on the whole 'hair splitting' process.
...and then...there's this whole "cal hypo" option that giroup01 mentioned...and the great "cost per ppm" comparison suggestion...which I think I'm doing by going with Carl's method. This way, I can somewhat-reliably nail down how much of "whatever option" I need to raise my pool by 1ppm...and see it's ultimate cost.

I think my head is going to explode :p

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Oh...and thanks again for all yous's help. The members of this forum all rock! :cool: I especially appreciate the intelligent on-going discussions and apparent lack of ego...unlike the various motorcycle forums I used to frequent.

[waterbear]

I'm with giroup01 on this. You are comparing apples and oranges and it can and does matter.

[CarlD]

And what do these details add up to?

It still comes down to putting enough chlorine into your pool to make it sanitary. Is it going to matter if you think one gallon of LC is going to add 10.8ppm to 10,000 gallons when it only adds 10.3? What really matters is if the stuff is still good and relatively close to what it's supposed to be.

I'll bet not one person in 100 knows within 200 gallons how much water is in their pool. And if it's anything bigger than a donut, I'd guess that variation would be 500 gallons. I'll bet nobody here knows it that accurately. We know APPROXIMATELY how much water is in our pool. And, when it comes to shocking a pool, it doesn't REALLY matter if the pool is 19,000 gallons, 20,000 gallons, or 21,000 gallons. You can safely use 20,000 gallons for all your calculations.

So...where does the problem with this measure of concentration crop up? Where is the bleach calculator formula wrong? Why is it wrong? More importantly, is it wrong enough to matter? Or is it a good enough approximation?
(we know Isaac Newton's laws of Physics are fundamentally wrong and that Einstein's Relativity fixes those problems, but Newton's physics is STILL a good enough approximation to use to fly a probe past Pluto without resorting to Relativity. See my point?)

More importantly: Can YOU come up with a better method of determining if your bleach / liquid chlorine is still good?
By better I mean something a homeowner can practically implement, not something that needs a sterile lab with people in white coats.

Carl

[aylad]

This is bordering on China Shop material......the OP is satisfied with the information that he has. So if y'all want to continue the debate, please take it to the Shop!!

Janet

[CarlD]

Of course you are right.

Carl

[Sponge1971]

This is bordering on China Shop material......the OP is satisfied with the information that he has. So if y'all want to continue the debate, please take it to the Shop!!

Janet

- Does OP mean Original Poster? (just a wild guess...)

- I don't want to propogate any flaming but I do have more data to add to the whole purpose of this thread: to determine the most cost (and convenience) effective way to chlorinate my pool...ultimately anybody's pool. Briefly: I bought a 2.85liter jug of Walmart 4% for $1 !!! That's better than the original 5liters for $2. I'm going to 'Carl Test' it and compare it's $/ppm to the other's here... (I also sourced 7kg of 62% CalHypo, for ~$87...wow! that's steep, but massive Chlorine content...)

- I feel this discussion is valid to this master 'chlorine' thread, because (once this testing discrepancy can be settled) it will lead to a simple and cost effective method for 'poolies' to source their chlorine...and isn't that a cornerstone for BBB? 'simple' & 'cost effective'. If I may suggest...the future result of this discussion should result in an infromative, well written, descriptive 'sticky' for all poolies to find at the front of the 'cholrine' master thread. I'm certainly don't have the credentials...but I'm not totally helpless...and if anything, I cal play the roll of the layman lab rat.

- I'm just a FNG here, so let me know if I'm stepping out of line...but either way, I still appreciate the discussions we're having on the few threads I've posted to. My work mate 'poolies' just sigh and ask "who cares?!?" when I start discussing this thread. My BFF doesn't even test his pool anymore...he just backflushes, shocks and chucks in his weekly concoction. Ok...maybe that works...but it's certainly not the 'best way' to go. I appreciate yous guys are passionate about doing it the 'best way'...in the spirit of BBB. They look at me, like I have three heads, when I mention BBB to Them...that pretty much squahses any interesting/dynamic coffee break discussion.

[giroup01]

2,85L of 4% at $1/Liter = $0,09/ppm
7000g of 62% at $87 = $0,2/ppm

You would think the $1 bleach is quite inexpensive, but it's actually twice as expensive as the cal hypo from Trevi or the 65% stuff at Club Piscine.

The Costco HTH cal hypo, 22,7 kg for $94,99 is even more expensive at $0,06/ppm. You'd think they would be the cheapest.

[Sponge1971]

giroup01,

How are you coming up with X% of Yliters = $Z/ppm?

Is there some constant to describe how much ppmFC there is per %SodHyp?

[Sponge1971]

:confused:

Here's a big azz wrench to throw in the works...

I just ran a 'Carl' on the jug of Walmart 4%.

1ml of Walmart 4% in my little 10liter 'pool' tests as 12.6ppmFC :eek:
(baseline tap water was 1.2ppmFC and sample read as 14ppmFC)

I'm fairly certain I didn't mess up. I will dump my 'pool' back into the 1liter measuring cup I used to fill it...in case I mis-counted. (even then...such a massive difference for +/- 1liter error?!?!?). I am 100% certain on the 1ml bleach sample. I ovefilled the syringe, bled the air, pushed out to exactly the 1ml line. I rinsed the syringe outside, then dumped it & flushed it. I stirred well, waited 10mins, re-stirred and multiple-flushed then pulled a 10ml sample.

If this method kinda points to %conc, then Walmart's supplier is pulling a fast one...to the consumer's benefit...which is w-a-y too suspicious. But...maybe it costs that particular supplier too much to dilute it down to 4%. -or- the supplier-du-jour only has 12% in their tanks...but, sometimes the other suppliers only have 4%...so Walmart has to mark for the least %conc. No doubt they have multiple sources for their store brand stuff. But I'd have to random sample all over the place to try and nail it down...forget it.

Anybody have anything to add?

UPDATE:
I just emptied 11 liters from the bucket. <sigh> That throws the math off...but that means the '%conc' must be even higher than 12%-ish. I just expanded the whole: 1ml in 11liters = 12.6ppm...up to my pool volume 20062liters for 1ppm change. I'm going to chuck 145ml of this stuff in and see what happens. My pool is 4ppm now. If it goes up to 5ppm, I guess it must be way more than 4%. True...I am only +/-0.5ppm resolution...but a little trinkle of 4% can't be worth much...the odds are it won't push me above 4ppm. We'll see....

[Sponge1971]

<sigh> a second update...
I wanted to work the angle on giroup01's suggestion of using CalHypo...
I have been searching around for info on whether CalHypo will increase my Calcium levels (which it will...so forget it)...and becuase I used "calcium hypochloride" in the search string...I ended up bouncing across a couple more "cost vs chlorine types" threads...and one driven by ChemGeek even. I'm sorry I missed them when I started this thread. :(
I don't want to flog a dead horse, and although I just skimmed the other posts (will get back to them...too late tonight) I suspect they are well and good for the cost vs chlorine I was trying to originally figure out.

Also...(not having read/searched other posts fully)...I also suspect Carl's post about determining PPM of the 'stuff' you have is the better place to continue the 'discussion' of the methodology and interpreting the results.

I don't know what other meat is left in this thread, after considering those other ones...I'm too tired now to suss it out.

Mod: if you feel this thread is now pointless and/or should be pmoved/closed/deleted...I trust your judgement. It's always best (and very hard) to keep like info (and usefull info) together...

[giroup01]

giroup01,

How are you coming up with X% of Yliters = $Z/ppm?

Is there some constant to describe how much ppmFC there is per %SodHyp?

0.9525
10.8% sodium hypo * 0.9525 = 10.3% available chlorine content.

[giroup01]

<sigh> a second update...
I wanted to work the angle on giroup01's suggestion of using CalHypo...
I have been searching around for info on whether CalHypo will increase my Calcium levels (which it will...so forget it)
Keep in mind that the pool will be opened about 4 months a year, and come October you'll drain it 2/3, whatever's left will be diluted by rain and melted snow, then you'll top it off in April with tap water.

So the increase in CH, whatever it is, is irrelevant.

[Sponge1971]

Well, not quite...

I have a DE filter so I don't dump & fill on a regular basis. Rainwater duming is all I'll be doing.

I plan to close my pool way late and open it way early. This is my first run but I'm thinking April to November...we'll see how reality goes...

I also only plan to drain below my returns, leaving them open to allow overflow to drain out the pool. Opening 'refill' will only be about 6 inches.

I have no idea on the 'rate of rise' my calcium would have, if I used CalHypo...but there won't be the dilution you're suggesting.