plumbing question about a Pentair Intelliflo pump

[jamesdean]

I am considering replacing my 1 HP pump with a Pentair Intelliflow variable speed. My plumbing is 1.5" and the pump uses 2". I have 3 suctions lines and one return line. My local pool store says there is no problem stepping down to 1.5" and they have installed dozens without problem. The tech support department at Pentair says not to step down to 1.5" and if the local dealer says they can do it to get it in writing.

Problem is that I can save about $500.00 by buying the pump online and I have the mechanical ability to perform the installation. I am just not sure who to believe. My first reaction to to believe the factory but the local store is reputable and I do not think they would be doing this if there were a problem. I would also think if this were a problem Pentair would be losing much business in retrofits.

So, my question is, does anyone with experience have an opinion on whether or not this would present a problem. Thanks in advance.

[PoolDoc]

The Intelliflow can be 'turned down' to provide a sufficiently small flow so that you won't 'overdrive' the 1.5" piping. But, by doing so, you lose most of the benefit of a multi-speed pump with very high flow capability.

You could operate more efficiently by purchasing the old Hayward Super (not Super II) pump in the SMALLEST 2 speed model (3/4 HP?) and using that instead. That pump will use less electricity, and more properly sized for 1.5" piping.

Ben

[jamesdean]

Thanks Ben, would I realize any where near the savings that is being promoted going from a 1 HP to the Intellifow?

[PoolDoc]

No.

As far as I've been able to determine, the only 'extra' savings an Intelliflo can offer over a conventional pump with a high efficiency motor is the ability to 'tailor' the flow to only as much as the pool needs. You can already get 80+% of that 'tailoring' by (1) picking the right pump to start with, and (2) buying a 2 speed version of that pump with a high-E motor.

As a general rule when the pool industry promotes "savings" what's being saved is the pool store's cash flow. For example, SWCG's are often a valuable product, but they do NOT produce the "savings" claimed, when compared to a well operated BBB pool. In fact, they cost somewhat more, in most cases.

There is another circumstance where an Intelliflo or similar pump is justified. Some high end in-ground pools have multiple and complex loads that vary through out the day. For example, a pool might have a roof top solar system, a fountain, and a spa. It is possible, with an oversized Intelliflow to have a pump that can meet the maximum flow demands, but then 'turn down' efficiently when those loads are not active.

Of course, implementing such a system requires, not just good controls, but a good "control-setter" or pool mechanic. Those are all that common.

[jamesdean]

Thanks again Ben. You have given me much information to think about. What started this whole process was a flyer received promoting the following product. A discussion about this flyer with my local pool store led into the Intelliflow investigation.

Here is a link to the product advertised in the flyer. http://www.impowerdealer.com/ It appears to be a 3 speed 3/4 HP motor that would adapt directly into my existing pump. Is this more along the lines or your suggested motor only replacement and do you feel I would benefit with energy savings with this product?

Continued thanks and appreciation for your help on this.

[PoolDoc]

Actually, it looks like that motor might make things easier, given this Q & A from the page you linked:

Q: I have an automation control, but I have NO additional relays to tie the low voltage cable, can I still use the imPower motor?

A: Absolutely! You can wire imPower similarly to the single speed timer, tying the L1 and L2 connections to the filter pump relay on the automation control. The motor will run on HIGH speed for 2 hours, and then to the LOW speed for the remainder of the timer ON time. Note that the default lowest speed setting can also be changed. Please refer to the installation manual for details. Operational compliance of imPower may change dependent on local laws and regulations. Please consult your local government for a list of applicable electrical codes.

Getting controls right is one of the difficulties with 2-speed motors; many electricians do not know how to wire them. It looks like that unit can be effectively controlled with a single speed timer.

[jamesdean]

So if my objective is to save money on energy costs do you feel this motor would be a good choice compared to the Hayward Super you referenced earlier?

[PoolDoc]

Can't answer that one -- I haven't compared prices and cost of installation.

Any well sized multi-speed pump will save you a lot compared to a single speed run 24/7.

It won't save as much money comparing a 2 speed run 2 hours on HI and 22 on LOW with a single speed run 6 hours on HI.

HOWEVER, one of the big benefits of multi-speed pumps is that they are VERY quiet on low.

[jamesdean]

It's 699.00 installed and they guarantee 750.00 savings "while under warranty" on a 1 HP replacement. The question is that the motor has a 2 year warranty and they are offering a free 3rd year so I'm not sure if the savings would be amortized over 2 or 3 years. They claim that they can put the electronics on my existing motor and show me the savings right then. If it's less than advertised then they deduct that amount from the purchase price.

http://bayareapoolservice.com/

[PoolDoc]

Well, for starters I don't trust anyone who misrepresents a new law in order to scare consumers into making purchases. On the Bay Area Pool service site, they encourage you to 'beat' the new law's requirements.

However, here's the law (from flsenate.gov (http://archive.flsenate.gov/data/session/2010/House/bills/analysis/pdf/h0663.IBFA.pdf)):

Current Situation
The Florida Energy Efficiency Code, s. 553.909, F.S., provides minimum energy requirements for appliances. Residential pool pumps and pool pump motors with a total horsepower of 1HP or more must operate at a minimum of two speeds, with a low speed operating at half the rotation rate of the motor‟s maximum rate. The default circulation speed of residential pool pumps must be the residential filtration speed, with override capability for a higher speed for periods not to exceed 120 minutes. Solar pool heating systems are permitted to run at higher speeds during periods of usable solar heat gain.

Proposed Changes (passed)
The bill amends s. 553.909, F.S., to increase, from 120 minutes to 24 hours, the period that a residential pool pump motor‟s speed may be set higher than the default residential filtration speed.

Now, if you read closely the only change is to make the requirements MORE permissive than they already were. So, whatever you *were* required to do, you are *now* given more leeway!

And now, you can also see, whatever the Florida pool police are requiring, you are still good to go with a 2-speed motor!

But, there's more than that. The "energy savings" are calculated against a 'standard induction motor' (read "least efficient motor we could find cataloged for pool use"), and NOT against YOUR pool or pump!

Now, it looks like your dealer is in Tampa, Fl (Bay Area Pool Service (813) 889-9091 - 5015 W Waters Ave, Tampa, FL) so I assume you are, too. Based on this page [ http://www.tampaelectric.com/news/ratechanges/yourbill/ratesillustration/ ] it looks like your costs are about $0.10/KWH. A 1 HP motor draws about 0.7KW. So, if you run your pump 8 hours per day, 365 days per year, your total cost would be $292 per year.

Now, according to this page [ http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-3065/Marathon-ImPower-Motor--dsh-/Detail.bok ], the warranty on that motor is two years. Bay Area Pool Service adds a 1 year warranty . . . I betcha it's got a bunch of fine print.

So, in order to save you $750 during the warranty period of what you been spending, your total electrical costs would have to go from $876 (3 x $292) to $121 or $40.33 per year. That motor looks like a pretty good unit, but NOT that good.

Plus, their energy calculator is all screwed up . . . 3 guesses who the errors favor (and the 1st 2 don't count!):

1 speed, 6 hours:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9rgjMZnK3RQ/TlhHPe_kd0I/AAAAAAAAAVw/-1qO9YlCXps/s800/1%252520speed.jpg

2 speed, 1 hr high, 23 hrs low:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-8Z2Emmt1TQQ/TlhHQIypzKI/AAAAAAAAAV4/BvWRn6PG-0U/s800/2%252520speed%252520b.jpg

2 speed, 23 hrs high, 1 hr low:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--NzXOFJRwIM/TlhHPyOehYI/AAAAAAAAAV0/7YaBcgZ5oLY/s800/2%252520speed%252520a.jpg

Bottom line:

#1 - It's a brand new motor, with very good specs. But it's pricy . . . and it's brand new. When I was younger, "brand new" sounded great. Now, "brand new" in my mind equals "a chance to be part of the company's beta test team, AKA consumer guinea pigs". If it were me, I'd wait 2 years to buy a product like that. But, Marathon has been around for awhile, and this motor may be fine, especially if the tech has already been in use in industrial motors.

#2 - As best I can tell, this motor will save you ALMOST nothing over a toggle switched 2-speed 3/4 HP motor. Run it on low 10 - 12 hours per day (2 periods) and on high when backwashing or vacuuming . . . and you'll save a bunch.

#3 - Bay Area is playing fast and loose with the facts. They don't include installation costs -- and the "free" period has expired -- and they calculate savings against a mythical motor, not yours. My guess is, pay back will be over 5 years against your existing motor (if you use a timer) and NEVER against a standard 2-speed motor.

#4 - But suit yourself. This motor costs more than a 2-speed, but not so much more that it will kill you. If you can afford to drop the $300 difference between a 2-speed motor, have at it. By the way, here are Internet prices for both types of motors:
http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-1289/A.-O.-Smith-2-dsh-Speed/Detail.bok
and
http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-3065/Marathon-ImPower-Motor--dsh-/Detail.bok

[jamesdean]

Ben, thanks again for all of this information. BAP has extended the free installation past that shown on their site. However I can install this myself and will go that route if I use this motor.

You have spent much time in giving me the facts to make an informed decision and I really appreciate it.

My decision now will be between this motor and the 2 speed, both of which you provided links.

Thanks again for your help.

[CarlD]

Hayward SuperPump comes in a 2 speed only at the 1HP or larger sizing. If they ever made a 3/4 version it must be over 10 years ago. My 1 HP SuperPump was purchased in 2002 and it was the smallest 2 speed Hayward made. Still going strong! Only thing I've replaced on it is the basket gasket. I don't think I'd buy a pump that's more than 10 years old.....

I THINK Pentair may make a 3/4hp 2 speed. Someone does, but I've forgotten who.

Carl

[mas985]

The 1 HP uprated SuperPump (SP2607X102S) is actually a very small pump compared to many on the market today. It has a head curve that is lower than many smaller labeled pumps such as the full rated 1/2 HP Whisperflo. The Pentair SuperFlo full rated 3/4 HP pump (SF-N2-3/4A) is slightly smaller (lower head curve) than the SuperPump but has about the same efficeincy as the SuperPump. In fact, Pentair developed the SuperFlo series to compete directly with the SuperPump. Both the SuperPump and SuperFlo are great choices for pools with single 1 1/2" pipe runs.