noob with cloudy water

[swimmerfred]

Hey Folks,

crystal clear water for first few weeks, then green and cloudy, then blue and cloudy. I fixed the green with algecide and smarter cleaning, but can't get the water back to crystal. Here's the dirty details:

30x15 above ground
cart filter running 12-24 hours/day (cloudy regardless)
triclor tabs from an automatic feeder, turned up to highest level
solar cover used about half the time
shocked weekly with super shock

FC=about 4
pH=7.3
alk=120
hardness=200
cya=0-30

Here's the thing, I know the triclor are supposed to be stabilized, but my cya never goes over 0-30. in fact it may be pegged at 0 for all I know. (test strips are hard to read) Additionally, the pounders of super shock say that it should increase fc something like 5ppm roughly for a pool my size. however, it takes several lbs to get fc over 7. what am i doing wrong? Not sure if it's related, but my cartridge is fairly new and it has to be cleaned every couple of days or flow drops quite a bit. Struggling to filter out the suspended particles that are cloudying the pool?

Again, first season, very new. I've searched all the forums, but holy cows is there a lot of conflicting info.

Thanks a ton!

[Watermom]

Hi Fred and welcome to the Pool Forum.

I assume you are using test strips since you report the CYA level as being a range of 0-30. If you have been using trichlor, then you have a CYA reading. Do you have a reputable pool store that you can let test your water and report back with their numbers. Just don't let them talk you into buying a bunch of stuff.

You'll need a good test kit if you don't already have one. The one we recommend is the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C (same kit, larger bottle of some reagents). If you buy it through the Amazon link in my signature, the Pool Forum makes a little money on the sale which helps us keep this form online. Only buy if the seller is Amato Industries, however. Some other sellers are substituting the K-2005 which you do NOT want. If Amato isn't listed, wait a day or two and try again. They seem to restock pretty quickly when they sell out.

Tell us exactly what all you have put in the pool meaning ingredients and not product names. Then somebody here can try and help you.

[CarlD]

Hi, and welcome!

I think I can help. We call them "silly strips" because you'll go silly trying to get an accurate reading from them. FC is usually the most accurate and pH is sorta OK. Alk and hardness get pretty vague, and CYA NEVER reads close to the proper test.

I suggest you take a sample to a pool store, but don't buy anything. Then you'll need to get a proper test kit, which, for the $50-$70 they range is cheap. We recommend the Taylor K-2006 and you can get it via Amazon by clicking on the sig line of one of 3 moderators: PoolDoc (actually the owner), Watermom, or aylad. If it's from Amato Industries via Amazon, they send the right one everytime.

Meanwhile, I'll be your CYA level is higher, but even if it's not, you can't get rid of algae and clouds until you raise FC to at least 12. I would take it to 15 because if the CYA is what I think it is, you'll need it at 15. Even if it's not, 15 won't hurt a vinyl-lined pool.

To get it to 15, you have to increase your FC by 11 points. Every gallon of 6% bleach should raise your FC by about 5 points, so just about 2 gallons of bleach should bring your level up to a proper shocking level. You'll have to add more bleach to keep it there for a while.

Next, go read our sister site, poolsolutions.com and get all the knowledge you can. And keep running that filter 24/7

Carl

[swimmerfred]

Ok, Ok, I'll order a test kit. In the meantime, regardless of how much shock, or bleach I add, it never seems to bump the fc like it should. I added 2 gallons of 6% bleach and fc increased by 4 points. I'm starting to get frustrated dumping gallons of bleach and pounds of shock in, with absolutely no improvements. Any thoughts?

[BigDave]

One thought: you can't really tell what your FC is with the strips. When your K-2006 arrives, I promise, you'll be surprized at how easy it is to use and interpret.

[aylad]

I would suspect that you are having trouble raising your FC for several reasons, some of which are 1) you are still on the edge of an algae bloom, since algaecides (and here we only recommend polyquat) are much better at preventing algae than killing it, therefore it's consuming the chlorine as quickly as you put it in, 2) your algaecide is creating its own chlorine demand in the pool, and 3) with a low CYA you're losing a lot to the sun. In order to clear it iup, you are going to have to get the chlorine up to your shock level (as they said above, that's based on your CYA level, so you need an accurate one to start with)--see the "best guess" link in my sig for more info about that--and keep that chlorine level up until you stop losing chlorine when testing at night and again in the morning before the sun hits the pool (that measures how much chlorine the pool is using and rules out what the sun is consuming). Only then can you let your chlorine drift back down--but how low you can let it go also depends on that same CYA level. So....you're gonna need a test kit to accomplish this, but it can be done with the cheap OTO (uses red and yellow drops to measure chlorine and pH). However, if you can invest in a good, comprehensive kit, it will pay for itself over and over and make your life SO much easier!!

[swimmerfred]

Kit's on its way. Taylor K-2006. I'll update as soon as i have some good info. Thanks for all the help so far!

[Watermom]

Good decision to buy the kit. You're gonna love it.

[swimmerfred]

Ok, tested with the Taylor kit and here are the results:

FC = 3ppm
CC = .5ppm
pH = 7.1
TA = 170ppm
Ca Hardness = 200ppm
cya = 35ppm

I cleaned out my cart filter a day or so ago, and the stuff that ran off had a green tint to it so I'm guessing that algae is probably my problem. Also, the cloudiness does have a slight green tint to it. I've used an ounce or two per week of Super Algae Something ( I don't have the bottle nearby ) but obviously I'm using the wrong stuff or improperly using it. Here's another thing I should have mentioned: All this started after a huge storm that hit the area. I didn't know then that storms can be tough on a pool, and I've never caught up since. Anywho, what should I do now?

[aylad]

Yup, shock the pool. Take your chlorine up to 15 ppm and hold it there by testing and adding enough chlorine to get back up to 15 ppm as many times a day as possible. Run the pump 24/7, brush the pool daily, and clean the filters as your pressure indicates. Maintain the high chlorine level until the pool has cleared up, and until you can test at night and again in the morning before the sun hits the pool, and you don't lose more than 1 ppm chlorine in that time. This is a process that can take a few days, not just a one-time dose of chlorine. When you get to the point where you're not losing chlorine overnightm, then you can let the chlorine drift back down to normal (3-6 ppm for your CYA level).

Oh--and stop using the algaecide. If it's not polyquat 60, it's creating more problems than you think it's solving. Just stick with chlorine.

Janet

[swimmerfred]

ok, working on it. been keeping it => 15ppm. Does it matter whether I use the powdered shock or liquid bleach - or more directly - is one more succeptible to burn off from the sun? I'm told that during the day it may burn off, but also that I am not supposed to use my solar cover because the elevated levels of chlorine could ruin it. Is the buffered shock more likely to keep FC levels elevated during the day? or doesn't it matter. Many thanks by the way.

[Watermom]

I'd use the liquid bleach. It won't contribute to clouding the water. High chlorine levels can damage a solar cover so you are correct in not keeping the pool covered while you are shocking.

[BigDave]

In the water, given a fixed CYA, one form of chlorine is no more or less susceptible to the sun than another. They all are.
Some powdered chlorine (dichlor) contains stabilizer and will increase your CYA level (increasing your sun protection and your required FC level for shock and normal operation). Dichlor will also lower your pH.
You reported a pH of 7.1 on 8/29; this is near the bottom of the scale, my K-2006 pH scale only goes to 7.0 in 0.2 increments, was the color between 7.0 and 7.2? If your pH is still that low (or lower if you're using dichlor), I'd recommend that you add some Borax to bring it up to the 7.4-7.6 range. Start with a couple cups, give it time to dissolve and circulate and test again. Add more if needed.
Are you still using trichlor? Trichlor will also drop your pH.
The other widely available powdered chlorine source is Calcium Hypochlorite which is just like bleach (and liquid chlorine - same thing as bleach) when it comes to the sun.

[swimmerfred]

Ok, I've had FC at or above 15ppm for five days now. It's still pretty green. Is it common for it to take this long? thx a bunch!

[PoolDoc]

Hi Fred:

Please do 4 things:

#1 - Retest with the K2006, and report a full set of results.
#2 - Clean your filter again, and see if there's still any "green stuff" on it or running off.
#3 - If there is any green stuff, catch some in a glass container, and add a teaspoon of bleach. Let us know how that affects the color.
#4 - Let us know EXACTLY what each chemical is, that you've used since first posting, and also if you have any 'devices' on the pool that are supposed to help with the chemistry.

[swimmerfred]

Ok, hope this helps:

#1 - FC=16.5, pH=7.6, CYA=50, TA=180, Ca=220ish (that one is hard to tell when exactly "blue" is)
#2 - Yep, there's lots of green stuff. I've been cleaning the filter about once a day. Basically, the pool is pea soup - cloudy and green.
#3 - I'm not sure that there is actually green solids or floaties. there is a littl green scum on ladder, inlets. should I try to get some of that? or test with just green pool water?
#4 - I go from skimmer to pump to cart filter to solar heater to tri chlor doser to inlet. I did turn the doser up a bit to help with Chlorine, I'm guessing that's where the slightly elevated CYA came from? At first I used the super shock that Wal-Mart sells, but then I got lazy and started using gallons of bleach. It takes roughly 3 gallons/day to keep it above 15ppm. I haven't added any anti-algae stuff in a few weeks. I've scrubbed the walls daily, letting the robot go at it on the bottom. Almost seems like I'm stirring it up and unsuccessfully filtering it. I'll take a FC reading tonight at dark and tomorrow morning. I'm guessing I lost 3 or so ppm of FC last night.

[PoolDoc]

Ok, hope this helps:

#1 - FC=16.5, pH=7.6, CYA=50, TA=180, Ca=220ish
#2 - Basically, the pool is pea soup - cloudy and green.


Ok.

That's enough information. Cloudy green pea soup is algae, not copper.

I've seen algae that was very, very chlorine resistant, a few times. High-ish pH and TA can make it easier for algae to grow.

So, do this:

+ Get some pH minus or muriatic acid, and lower your pH to near 7.0. To be sure of your pH reading, you'll need to get some distilled -- not just bottled, distilled, available in most groceries -- water and dilute your pool water 50:50 with it, BEFORE testing pH. High chlorine affects phenol red, but distilled water will dilute it and does not affect pH much. (Thanks, Chem_Geek!) Do not add acid doses more than 1x per 4 hours. DO run your filter 24/7, if you are not already doing so.

+ Once your pH is near (not below) 7.0, add FIVE gallons of plain 6% bleach in the evening. Be SURE your pump is running when you do. Do not try to test the pH till the chlorine goes below 18 ppm.

+ If you don't get a kill, wait till you can test pH again. You'll probably need to add more acid. Once you get the pH below 7.2, redose with chlorine. Do NOT let the chlorine get below 10 ppm.

+ If you STILL don't get a kill, add EIGHT gallons of chlorine in the PM.

Let us know how it goes. Limit yourself to 3 chemicals: bleach; acid and borax, if you go too low on the chlorine. Do not use anything else. Do run the pump & filter 24/7.

Ben

[swimmerfred]

Ok, did as instructed. Got pH down slightly, then added 5.4 gallons of bleach. Didn't test FC until next morning, but read 26.5ppm. That afternoon it was 21.5ppm. The next morning (this morning) it's 13ppm. Tested pH this morning and got 7.4. Pumps been running non stop for a couple weeks now. Not going to lie, starting to get discouraged. Still the exact same pea soup. How will I know when it's working? Will it simply consume less FC or will I see a visible change initially? Off to WalMart for more bleach? again, thanks very much.

[PoolDoc]

Again, more information is present in your post: "pea soup" is more than just cloudy green water; it's opaque green water, as in "my fingers disappear before they are a foot down". If you've got pea soup . . . you've got a long tough road ahead of you. That much algae creates an ENORMOUS chlorine demand. Cleaning it up can take as much chlorine as you'd otherwise use in an entire summer!

There are plenty of shortcuts . . . just none that work well!

So do this: (explanations below)

#1 - Hold the chlorine in the 10 - 15 ppm range, and add acid every 4 hours till you get the pH to near 7.0. (note 1 below)

#2 - If you like, add 1/2 dose ONLY of a sodium bromide based product. See note #2 below.

#3 - Once you reach pH 7.0, add sufficient bleach to take your chlorine level to 30+ ppm, and hold it there for 48 hours. While it is that high, BRUSH your pool thoroughly, whether you can see the bottom or not. If you have algae layers on the bottom, you'll need to add MORE bleach after every brushing, to maintain your chlorine level. See note #3 below.

#4 - Let us know how it goes.


Note #1: Once you do, it will began increasing again on it's own because of the high alkalinity level. (You can read here (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html): if you want to understand what's happening.)

Note #2: There are no GOOD shortcuts for cleaning up a swamp. But there is one short cut that may help somewhat, without too high a price later. There are pool products that contain sodium bromide and are sold for situations like yours. "Yellow Treat" is one such product. They work, because chlorine oxidizes bromide to bromine, and bromine is NOT affected by stabilizer. While your algae is present, this is good, because the cloudiness protects the bromine from sunlight, and the UN-stabilized bromine can be more effective against algae than stabilized chlorine. So, using these products *may* give you a somewhat faster (not fast, just somewhat faster!) cleanup.

But, there still is a price!

Once your pool is clear again, the sunlight WILL break down the bromine, into bromide, which will then be converted back to bromine . . . using up chlorine in the process. The result will be a HIGHER chlorine usage with clear water than you would have had otherwise. Eventually, the bromide will be converted to bromate, which is not easily converted to bromine, and this chlorine loss will stop. But unless you drain your pool, it will probably be sometime into NEXT pool season before it does.

Note #3: It's not common, but I've encountered algae that did not start dying until chlorine levels reached 40+ ppm . . . and that pool had less than 40 ppm CYA. This sort of algae is not common, but it does occur. If you have a plaster pool, it would probably be best just to take your chlorine up to 50+ ppm. But, unless your CYA level is higher than you reported, I can't recommend that on a vinyl or fiberglass pool. There is just too much risk of bleaching out the color on either liners or fiberglass.

[swimmerfred]

Ok, began doing as instructed. In the meantime; My LPS guy noticed that my pressure was a bit high on my filter gauge. I re-plumbed with a by-pass for the solar heater. I did not realize how much flow my solar heater was restricting. It has to be moving water 5x as much as before. Thing looks like a hot tub jet shooting out now. Could it be possible that all along I just wasn't getting enough flow through the filter? At this point, I just want to get it cleaned up for winter. Currently in the process of lowering pH and scrubbing. Still green, but i noticed that algae doesn't settle on fittings, ladder, etc like it used to.

[PoolDoc]

Poor flow and filtration are certainly contributing causes . . . and could lead to conditions in which you would tend to 'breed' highly chlorine resistant algae, since algae could retreat to low flow / low chlorine areas whenever you tried to attack the problem.

You still may have some very chlorine resistant algae. So, I'd still recommend the process above.

Also, in a situation like this taking borates to 50+ ppm is likely to help, if you want to pursue that.

Ben