My P.O.P. is gone. need help again

[shub_31]

Ive had the time to test my pool often. I test mourning, several hours later and so on. I cant keep chlorine levels without adding all day. Its sunny and hot. If I check mourning and its 10ppm by 12 it down to 6 or 7. I cant be home all day to keep it between 8 and 15. My FC is always .5 or less. What Should I do

[kelemvor]

What are your other chemical levels? If you've got no (or low) CYA that would explain the FC loss during the day. If you do, you may well be fighting algae.

[shub_31]

CYA 100
CA 110
PH 7.4
FF Target is 10ppm
FC .5 or less

[kelemvor]

Sounds to me like your fc is being eaten up by something rather than getting burned off by the sun with a 100CYA. I would shock to 25PPM (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html#a). Keep shocking until you lose less than 1ppm FC between sundown and sunup.

You might also want to get some distilled water and mix that with pool water while doing your CYA test. Half pool water and half distilled, then double your reading to get your actual CYA number. I know my test kit only goes to 100PPM so if yours is the same, it's possible you have more than 100PPM CYA which would affect how much chlorine you need in the pool for normal use and/or shocking.

You should avoid using any dichlor or trichlor as those will increase your CYA level.

Edit: I see in your other posts that you recently tried a partial water replacement to reduce your cya level and it didn't budge. I think that probably means you were much higher than 100 and you'll have to do more water replacement than you already did to get it down some.

[shub_31]

Thanks for the reply. ive done pretty much all that from other members replies. They couldnt understand why my pool was doing what it was. its the clearest its ever been. I dont see how you can go ALL NIGHT WITHOUT LOSING FC. Ex. If you swim til 8pm. Add bleach up to 10ppm you should be guaranteed to lose ppm. The only way you would never loose was if nobody swam for days til you passed that test. I would think you introduce more contaminants every time someone swims. I shocked for 5 days but still lost 1-2ppm. So the experts recommended letting it drift down and see what happens.

[PoolDoc]

OK, some questions:
Are you saying you lose 4 ppm of FC between 8am and noon, with no one in the pool?
If there are people in the pool, who, and how many?
Do they use lotion heavily? Do they have leaky bladders? (Sorry, but it does matter!)

Changing direction:
Have you EVER used anything made by United Chemical: No Mor Problems, Yellow Treat, etc.?
Have you EVER used any other product sold in a 10" - 16" tall plastic jar, containing 1 - 2 pounds of white fine granular material that was supposed to help with algae, or in some other non-specific way, help your pool?

Ben

[shub_31]

Yes there are people swimming. 2 or 3. yes to lotion. no to the rest. I wasnt sure if its normal to start of at 10ppm then drop and not worry about it till evening. Im sure not everyone checks their pool all day and adds chemicals every couple of hours. thanks. I have added some clarifier about 3 weeks ago and some hth algacide weeks ago but quit

[shub_31]

oops. isnt it normal to lose ppm with 90 degree heat and sun even with noone in the pool

[PoolDoc]

Some. Not 4ppm between 8 & noon.

A typical commercial pool with 120,000 gallons and 200 ppd may have to add 5 - 10 pounds of cal hypo 2x per day to maintain good chlorine levels all day. But, that's 16 ppd / 10,000 gallons, where your pool is 1.5 ppd per 10,000 gallons. The only things I can think of are:

1) Your CYA test results are mistaken.
2) You've added bromine without knowing it -- very possible; those products are almost NEVER labeled as bromine or bromide.
3) You've got something causing heavy chlorine demand.

One way to check would be a pool use holiday -- 48 hours with no swimming. On the 2nd day, does in the late PM, test after 1 hour, and test again in the early AM. With 24 hours prior with NO swimming, the chlorine drop overnight should be very small. Then test again, at noon. If it's a sunny day, and you lose more than 20% of chlorine chlorine from sunrise to noon, EITHER your CYA test results are probably mistaken OR you have bromine or iodine in the pool.

If you do have significant chlorine drop from late PM the 2nd day to early AM the third day, I don't know what it could be.

If you have little drop overnight, and 10% or less loss from sunrise to noon . . . we'll need to look at what your swimmers are doing to create such a high chlorine demand.

Ben

Ben

[shub_31]

ive tested cya over and over and its no more than 100. All the kids do use lotion. And im 100% sure I have not added bromine. I just shocked again at 730. No ones been in the pool since 2. Ill check around 830 and check in the mourning. Hopefully no drop. I want to make sure I dont have algae even though Ive never ever seen any other than having a cloudy pool. And like Ive said before, my pool is the clearest its been in a while. Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

To test the way I said, you'll have to keep people out all day Monday and Tuesday till noon, retest Monday night and Tuesday AM and noon.

Ben

[shub_31]

Just tested.

Last night: FC 23
CC 1

This mourning: FC 23
CC 1

This is the first time Ive had no decrease in FC since all the advice I had been given way back. ill see what happens then test your way if I still have problems. Going on vacation next week so no one will be in the pool then. Thanks

[shub_31]

tested again.

This mourning FC 23


4:30pm FC 13


No one in pool all day, fairly sunny with some rain. Seems like a big drop for 8 hours.

[PoolDoc]

I'm going to ask Chem_Geek to look at this, but the only two explanations I know of for this are:

#1 - Your CYA is not as high as your testing is indicating, OR
#2 - There's bromide / bromine in your pool (or iodine, though I don't know how that could be.)

Meanwhile, please read this page:
http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/once-a-bromine-pool-always-a-bromine-pool.html

Ben

[shub_31]

Thanks Ill read it. The only things Ive ever added is Simplicity Clear Magic, HTH water clarifier, pool brand trichlor pucks(sams club) Borax Muratic acid and years ago HTH slow disolve 3" pucks calhypo

FC 13 @ 4:30

FC 13 @ 8:00 No one in pool all day with sundown mostly after 4:30

Tested dilution method with distilled water

CA 90ppm

[PoolDoc]

Ok. I've talked with Chem_Geek, and his thoughts confirmed mine. Add your second set of no-sun readings that pretty much eliminates possibilities other than the ones I mentioned.

But . . . Chem_Geek noticed some things I hadn't about the way you described your CYA testing.

So

#1 - K200x CYA testing is turbidimetric: the water gets CLOUDY when CYA is present.
#2 - You fill the small sample bottle to the first line with pool water and then add CYA reagent to the 2nd line.
#3 - Shake, wait 15 seconds, shake again, wait 45 seconds.
#4 - Then, carefully add this mix to the small CYA tube side of the kit, adding slowly, till the black dot disappears.
#5 - Stop adding when it disappears, and read your CYA level from the outside, matching water level with the marks.

BUT . . . if you the mixed sample water doesn't get cloudy, you have little or no CYA.

Ben

[shub_31]

Ill try the cya again that way but im running out of regeant. I test thsi mourning and it was FC 12 CC 1 with no drop over night. I added 3 qts and just got home. After wife son and dog swam my FC is 5 and my CC is 2. This is a first. Im ready to give up

[PoolDoc]

Shub, I don't want to be rude, but it's not that hard! We're about ready to give up, too.

#1 - Did you mix your pool water 50:50 with reagent in the sample bottle?
If the answer is no, you need to re-read the instructions, and follow them.
If the answer is yes, go to #2

#2 - Did the sample get cloudy?
If the answer is no, you have been reading the test wrong and you need to re-read the instructions, and follow them.
If the answer is yes, then -- and ONLY THEN -- you have a positive high CYA test, and need to go on to #3

#3 - You really have high CYA *and* high chlorine loss to sunlight. There are only 2 ways this can happen:
+ You have added bromine to the pool . . . which you may have done unknowingly! In this case, you'll have to
--- put up with high chlorine use for a period, possibly the rest of the summer, OR
--- drain and refill your pool, but you can't do this with a vinyl inground pool, or with any inground pool in a low or wet area.

+ OR . . . you have discovered some unknown pool chemistry, based on some unknown condition that only exists in your pool. But, if you have, we can't help you, but how to help with unknown pool chemistry based on an unknown condition is unknown.

It is possible for the R-0013 reagent in a kit to be 'bad' . . . but that would almost certainly produce a LOW reading, and NOT the high CYA reading you support.

The initial high CC readings + subsequent loss of chlorine on sunny days in SPITE of high CYA sounds very, very much like the typical response of pools dosed with a lot of one of United Chemical's products.


So . . . the ball is in your court. Why don't you have your pool water tested at a pool dealers? Dealer guess strips are not very accurate with CYA, but they can tell the difference between low and high.

Sincerely

Ben Powell

PS: When you reply, you need to answer questions ONE and TWO with "yes" or "no". You can add something besides yes or no, but we need to see a definite yes or no answer to each question by number.

[shub_31]

1 YES
2 YES
3 YES Im sure I have high CYA. Ive tested it with the 2 entire bottles in kit plus the extra big bottle i ordered. The sun is out in full forece but i thought the higher CYA would slow it down
And NO as far as I know, no united chemicals or bromine have been added.
My dog could be peeing in the pool but he always pees when he gets out
I dont trust pool dealers but I guess I can try it.
Dont worry, I would never consider u rude. I know its easy but I cant understand why this is happening based on all the info I have been given.

[shub_31]

what is a good website to check united chems products

[PoolDoc]

http://www.swimpool.com/category_Swimming_Pool_Algae.htm
http://www.swimpool.com/category_Pool_Maintenance_Chemicals_.htm

If you are sure that you have high CYA, and are sure you haven't used any United Chemical products (or other products containing bromide or bromine), we are in uncharted territory. The only thing left to do is a full blown test comparing your pool water with both stabilized and unstabilized tap water. You'll need 3 identical clean buckets that hold at least 3 gallons (and you'll have to clean them again), some liquid stabilizer, some bleach, a set of plastic measuring spoons down to 1/8 teaspoon, and a clean 1 gallon milk jug.

Lemme know when you have those items.

Given the circumstances, it's the only way to establish that you have some unknown 'bad actor' in your pool. If we do establish that, you'll then have to hire a pool service guy to help you drain and refill it safely.

In theory, you could send your pool water off to a water analysis lab, but we don't know what you are looking for, and the sort of analysis that would help in these circumstances would start at over $1,000 and go up from there.

Ben

[shub_31]

Im going away for a week this sat. My neighbor is going to put a 3qt bottle of 12% in each day. So whatever it is it is. Ill be curious to see it when I get back without the testing.
Also, I swam last night til 8 tested water and covered it
FC 12
CC .5-1

This mourning
FC 11
FC .5

Left covered all day with minimal sun. No pump run through night and day. First time in 3 months

4:30
FC 10
FC .5

Dont think I have any major problem.Maybe its just normal with the dog, lotions and sun to lose like I have been.
Ill let you know what I decide about the tests you want to run. Im also going to have a pool store test my water for kicks. Thanks for eveything

Scott

[PoolDoc]

Left covered all day with minimal sun. No pump run through night and day. First time in 3 months
4:30
FC 10
FC .5

You don't have any sort of cartridge or ozonator or extra filter or other gizmo installed, do you?



I'll let you know what I decide about the tests you want to run.

Uh, you might have not meant that exactly, but we don't have any particular desire to run them. It's just that -- unless there's something you've overlooked or forgotten to tell us -- there's nothing else we can do to explain your situation.

As far as we know, chlorine in an unused swimming pool with CYA=100 does not drop like that, unless bromine / bromide or iodine is in the pool.

[shub_31]

no nothing extra. You told me to let you know when i get the things needed. I just meant that I let you know if I decide to waste your time running them.
You mean to tell me that a coverd pool with minimal sun, pump not running isnt gonna loseat least 1ppm in 11hours.

[PoolDoc]

Not what I'm saying.

Your losses the previous day were what I spoke of. The losses you are reporting now aren't consistent with those, either.

[shub_31]

Sorry. I just thought that it might be normal for my pool and conditions to lose what it does after seeing that it didnt lose much with no one in it and less sun.

[PoolDoc]

It's not normal for a *stabilized* chlorine pool. It *is* normal for an unstabilized chlorine pool. And, it *is* normal for a bromine pool.

But, odds are, it will resolve itself over time. Even bromine -- unless you used the bromine tabs, which contain hydantoin -- will eventually be converted to bromate.

[chem geek]

If there is no sunlight and no bather load and an FC that is roughly 10% of the CYA level, then 24-hour chlorine loss is typically under 1 ppm and sometimes under 0.5 ppm, but the exact loss depends on temperature. In my own pool at 88ºF that number is on the order of 0.7 ppm FC per day (with normal bather load and the pool cover open 1-2 hours most days and longer on weekends and 40 ppm CYA, the loss is closer to 1 ppm FC per day). For residential pools that usually have a low bather load but that don't have a pool cover and are exposed to sunlight, the usual daily chlorine loss is around 1.5 to 2.5 ppm for most pools though some may be higher if there is heavier organic load such as blown in pollen, etc. This loss rate is also a function of the CYA level where higher CYA levels (with proportionately higher FC levels) lose less chlorine.

[shub_31]

all I can say is my cya is 100 and starting of with a FC of 10. Introducing a kid or kids with suntan oil and a dog and sun my pool will be down to 5ppm in several hours. Ive bought so many jugs of bleach im losing track of the money im spending. O well ill see what happens the rest of summer and hope next year is betterm thanks for th great replies

Scott

[chem geek]

A dog is equivalent to many bathers and if the kids urinate in the pool then that can also create a large demand, but it sounds like this happens every day for you, not just for such one-time incidents. Are you saying that if kids and dog do not get into the pool and there is just sunlight that the FC doesn't drop or are you saying that it does? I'm trying to understand if it's specifically the introduction of the kids and dog that are causing the drop.

[shub_31]

Theres been very few days that no one has been in the pool. Its been 2-3 months since I have covered it. The other day was the first time covered. It wasnt a very sunny day and no one had been in it. I think it dropped 1 or 2ppm in 11 hours. If I remember correctly it has dropped uncovered full sun with no one in it. Its yo yoing too much based on replies. Just last night it was 9ppm covered and this mourning 8. No one in it yesterday except 2 frogs. the kids get out to go pee and so does the dog. It does drop sharply when we are all swimming. I would have to put bleach in it all day to maintain 10ppm

[shub_31]

Well, Ijust got back from vacation. No testing for 7 days. Heres what happend. Had a neighbor add bleach every day and the pump was running all the time with solar cover in place.

Sat. Rained all day. Removed 2 inches of water, tested then left.

Sat FC 15ppm
Sun added 3qts 6%
Mon 6qts 6%
Tues she forgot
Weds 3qts 6%
Thurs 6qts 6%
Fri 3qts 6%

I got home sat at 1pm. Tested
FC 7ppm
CC 1ppm.
I really expected FC to be much higher with cover on and no swimming.There was about 1inch of rain added over week. Then I added bleach tested at night. FC 12ppm. This mourning it was 9ppm. Something isnt right. Im gonna test my cya again. I really dont know whats going on. i thought we had it under control.

[PoolDoc]

Let me know your CYA level AND your water temperature, please.

Ben

[shub_31]

cya 100
temp 83F

[PoolDoc]

Ok.

Well, I don't know. I've recently seen some high demand here, but with different conditions. I could speculate, but I really don't have any solid ideas. Your chlorine use is higher than I'd expect, but I don't know why.

Ben