new home owner -- new pool owner -- clear as MUD

[Andyman33]

I posted this on poolspaforum.com and was hoping for help asap so figured I'd do it here too...
I've been reading here for about 2 days now -- looking about how you are advising others to get the water straight and have made a few changes etc, but we are still with a cloudy pool (VERY) and I am hoping for some advice. First of all, the pool is 16k gallons inground fiberglass vinyl liner. It has a nature2 in addition to sand filter (although the nature2 is not active at this point). The pool was at an unoccupied house in Wisconsin and wasn't first opened until friday of 4th of july weekend...so we are definitely behind the 8-ball. I already have ordered the taylor 2006 testing kit but for now I have test strips to test free chlorine and hth's 6 way kit. When we got to the house, there was no chlorine in the system (not sure how long but I do know they used the pool for about a week from july 4-11 or so)...that is what I'm starting with.
Initially when tested ph 8, TC 0, TA 200, CYA 0. I have strips and FC was also zero on that.
I since have added acid trying to get the TA down(with aeration) as well as the pH, and also have added chlorine (both the tabs in my feeder and 4 bottles of shock (aka sodium hypochlorite 10%) and TA is now 180 ph 7.5, TC 4, CYA undetectable but the strips still show FC zero. SO....I have also been using poolcalculator.com and I also learned that unscented bleach was just as good but its only 6%...told me to add 330 mL's of 6% hypochlorite...which I have done. So now the question is this --- do I add CYA so that the chlorine stays around (it is like 96 degrees all this week)? Do I work on the TA? Do I give it 48 hours with this chlorine that I just put in? Or do I pump out a bunch and put in a bunch of "fresh"(our city softens the water for us, will that matter?)
Thanks for everything -- just want a CLEAR pool Can't even barely see the last step!!!

Or looking at some of the timelines on here...do I check my pool every hour and keep adding bleach until I finally get a reading on the FC and fight the crap out of whatever is eating my chlorine up -- is there a danger to my system of using too much bleach (so long as the FC doesnt' go too crazy high) goal of 12-15.

Thanks

[Watermom]

Hi Andy and welcome to the Pool Forum. Until your kit arrives, (good decision to order that by the way) -- use your 6-way kit, but not the test strips. They are useless.

Until you get some CYA (stabilizer) in there, you're gonna have to add bleach 2 or 3 times per day. We recommend a CYA of 40-50 for most pools. You have a choice to make. You can just go ahead and add the CYA separately to get to 40-50 and be done with it or you can add enough separately to get to around 25 and then use your feeder for awhile and then stop doing so when you get to 40-50. (Clarify for me --- by feeder do you mean chlorinator and not just floaters?) Let us know which you prefer to do and we'll advise you from there.

Either way, for the first week or so, you'll need to test 2 or 3 times a day, and each time add enough bleach to take the chlorine back up to around 6. For reference, in your pool each quart of 6% bleach will add just about 1ppm of chlorine.

Here are some links for you to read:
Using Muriatic Acid Safely (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111-Using-Muriatic-Acid-to-Safely-Lower-Your-Pool-s-pH.html)
Lowering Alkalinity Step-by-Step (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html)

Also, if you haven't already done so, please read the Best Guess Chlorine Chart in my signature below.

One last thing for now. To make it easier for us to help, if people will create a signature line with their pool specs, it keeps us from having to reread through posts to find out basic information. You can create a signature by clicking on 'settings' in the upper right-hand corner of the homepage. In your sig, please put type of pool, volume, type of filter, size of pump, whether or not you have a SWCG or any water features and the fact that you do or do not have a K-2006. Thanks!

Hope this helps. Let us know which of the two options you want to do for adding your CYA.

[Andyman33]

added my signature...
also, should I put the CYA in the chlorine feeder or in a sock? It is like a powdered granular type is all that i could fine?

[Watermom]

Do NOT put the CYA in the feeder. Put it in an old sock and hang it in front of your return jet. Give it a squeeze every now and then and it will help it dissolve faster. The powdered granular type is what you are looking for as long as the ingredients say cyanuric or isocyanuric acid. Are you going to add enough to take it up to 40 or only to about 25 and let your feeder take it the rest of the way? (Once your CYA hits 50, you don't want to use your feeder any more or else your CYA will continue to climb and you really don't want it any higher that that.

(Thanks for making the sig.)

[Andyman33]

I can't see my signature (or yours for that matter). As for the CYA -- I'll probably just get it to 25 for now and then let the trichloro that I already purchased bring it up slowly the rest of the way (ok plan?)
As for today -- I'm off and plan to bleach the crap out of this...
one more thing -- my filter right now has pressure at 25. What do I do? Backwash? how much water do I backwash out? Do I need a hose to keep it off my lawn to prevent the bleach from destroying it? A little advice for this would also be greatly helpful!! Thanks so much!

cya now in a sock in the feeder (put in 9 oz) this time -- calls for 33 oz total so will slowly add...

[Watermom]

To see sigs, I think you have to go back to the user control panel somewhere in the settings and enable it. I don't have time to look for it right now. See if you can find it and if not let me know and I'll look for it a little later.

CYA to 25 and then use feeder til it hits 50 is fine.

Backwash your filter. Always turn the pump off before you move the handle on the multiport. First move it to backwash. Watch the discharged water and backwash until the discharge (not the little sight glass) looks clean. Usually takes mine about 1.5 minutes or so, maybe a little less. Turn pump back off, put handle on rinse for about 15 seconds. Turn pump back off and put it back on filter. Note the clean pressure. That will be important to note because the way you tell it is time to backwash is whenever the pressure rises 5-10psi over the clean filter pressure. I have always backwashed right onto my lawn for years and it has never hurt it at all.

EDIT -- You don't have to add the CYA so slowly or it will take a long time to get it to register and during that time, you'll have trouble keeping chlorine in the pool. Go ahead and add it all to the sock. 9 oz. is only going to give you about 5ppm. It's going to take a little over 3 lbs. to add 25ppm. So, you need more than 33-oz.
Out the door for a bit to run some errands but I'll check back in on you later this afternoon.

[Andyman33]

ok added more cya to sock...no more than 18 ounces will fit though so added that much and will add more as it dissolves into the water. Just rechecked pool again -- pH 7.8, TC about 4 (tough with the yellow color matching) and Free chlorine on stick 0 (again i have dip sticks only to see if I can get ANY free chlorine in this pool!)
also, when should I backwash filter? and can i do it into grass or will chlorine kill it?

[Phillbo]

Don't backwash while adding the CYA.. You'll just flush it out .. You need to wait a week or so after adding CYA before you backwash.

If you just put the sock in , you may want to remove it (and add more ) , backwash and then start adding CYA.

[Watermom]

With the CYA in a sock that is hanging in front of a return, backwashing won't flush it out.

Andy -- If your pressure is 25, you need to backwash. Please reread my post #6 above for more about that.

Did you find how to enable things so you can see signatures?

[Andyman33]

signatures are there...so is the last step to get in my pool and even a little of the bottom is showing!!! woohoo!! I have been checking every hour to two and finally getting some free chlorine in there!! TC is 5.0 (I need to dilute 1/2 strength with distilled that I bought on next check to see if it is really more like 10 or something even higher). However the strips (i know not ideal) are showing just less than 5.0 so I think its gotta be around there...and the FREE chlorine finally gave some readings!!! 3-4 range!!! woohoo...gonna go out to dinner and retest it all when I get back and probably add even more chlorine in...why the huge demand? that bad from the algae bloom that must have developed?
also I backwashed until it was clear (well as clear as the pool at least :)) then did rinse and restarted filter (after cleaning skimmer basket in the pump as it was really dirty)...readings still at 25 pressure. Does that mean sand is gunked up from previous owner having a pool service and putting god knows what in...there was quite a bit of pool store stuff on the shelves :(...do you think I need new sand? I'll do a search on how to do it later.
Thanks!

[PoolDoc]

I'm so glad you asked -- I get to use my shiny new photos of Hayward's sucky old chlorinator!

Here's what I think you have:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hJ-TxTfpKBM/TieFVcLkBzI/AAAAAAAAAJU/-i7pRXxT9tQ/s800/CL200%252520ed.jpg

and, here's what may be your problem:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EUcimS2PgaI/TieFVqbnqkI/AAAAAAAAAJc/n5LsOBhP16o/s800/port%2525208810.jpg

and another photo, in case you miss the point:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uLGRjmLCFbg/TieFVlGER9I/AAAAAAAAAJY/kMtn5QgnIZ4/s800/port%2525208813.jpg

Unless your CL200 is on a bypass circuit, you are trying push the entire flow of your pool pump through a hole a quarter won't go through!

Hayward makes some great products . . . but this is not one of them! In my experience, the metering valve doesn't usually work, either.


Of course, it could be something else. Send pictures of your pump, filter and piping to poolforum AT gmail DOT com, and I'll take a look!

[Andyman33]

so, we can finally see the bottom of the pool except in the very deep end...there are lights in the pool that I didn't know were there haha. In any case, I don't understand why putting in the amount of chemicals that I am is not getting me the correct increase in ppm. For example...I've put in almost 4 pounds of cya...still not registering on the test -- and I am sure I am doing it right. ALSO, when I have put in a LOT and I mean a LOT of bleach (20 gallons in 2 days) the highest I have gotten on total Cl is 4-5 and FC is 3-5...it sticks around for a bit but based on calculations it should be getting 10ppm on the chlorine when I add in 182 fl oz x 2 of walmart brand unscented bleach -- instead I'm getting only about 3-4 ppm -- I've thought it was 16k gallons(pool installer said this based on freeform they use a conversion) but the pool calculator (3.5 ft deep shallow end, 5.5 ft deep end) 18x36 free form...pool calculator gives is 21000 or so gallons based on rectangle shape ... Any further advice there?

[PoolDoc]

When you have a sludgy pool, you've got all sorts of active biological processes going on. Until your sludge is 100% dead -- and it doesn't sound like that's happened yet -- it's impossible to predict what will happen when you add chemicals, because there's no telling what the sludge will do. For example, the right kind of sludge will eat your CYA (literally) and poop out (pretty much literally) ammonia -- which consumes HUGE amounts of chlorine.

Beyond that, it appears you are still using 'guess strips' , which means neither you nor I know what ANY of your readings are, really.

[Andyman33]

combo of guess strips(just to see if we are getting any FC readings) and drop tests for TC, pH, cya, TA etc...hopefully amato industries will ship soon!!!

[PoolDoc]

combo of guess strips(just to see if we are getting any FC readings)

That's the best use of 'guess strips' -- to get a very rough idea of what's in the pool!

[PoolDoc]

Your pool photos:

Pump, filter & heater layout

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-05MD7zDktt0/TioyjIROhOI/AAAAAAAAALA/raIrynwYrLs/s800/pump%25252Cfilter%25252Cheater%2525201.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-N-Q23QTe8y0/Tioyj5_n3WI/AAAAAAAAALI/nDDn2p9J1Bs/s800/pump%25252Cfilter%25252Cheater%2525203.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-H02EEfqvoEg/Tioykuy0H7I/AAAAAAAAALM/QEByRRy_79M/s800/pump%25252Cfilter%25252Cheater%2525204.jpg


Filter label

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-T6QH745a2O4/TioyodSE9fI/AAAAAAAAALc/G4ncp3EiHl0/s800/filter%252520label.jpg


Pump Labels

Pump
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rcVLVdkCEjk/Tio-XkoKRCI/AAAAAAAAALw/_Y2eyXxWxMk/s800/pump%252520label.jpg

Pump motor
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jlSoe7o2GvU/TioypKJJigI/AAAAAAAAALg/OI3MZ5qbjWs/s800/pump%252520motor%252520label.jpg


Jandy PlusHP specs

Flow
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6iuzgQKEmS8/TipAwKEE5QI/AAAAAAAAAL4/L4B4LsSQ44M/s800/plusHP%252520flow.jpg

Specs
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SZrTR0A0CiQ/TipAvvfUp2I/AAAAAAAAAL0/b9SyMmJCtoo/s800/plusHP%252520specs.jpg

[PoolDoc]

It's interesting that the installer was a relatively neat plumber, but had no idea what was and was not appropriate equipment.

You have a tiny AG pool filter, with an exceedingly shallow sand bed coupled with an 80 GPM pool pump. There are so many things wrong with this installation, it's hard to know where to begin!

Here's a list to start with:

#1 - Replace the Hayward CL200 with a Rainbow 320 OR with floaters.
#2 - Discard the filter and replace with a Pentair TR24 and rework the Jandy with a smaller seal / impeller / diffuser.
OR
#2 - Discard the filter and replace with a Pentair TR30.

[ I was being stupid: I meant the 24" Pentair TR60 or the 30" TR100, not the fictitious TR24 or TR30. -ben ]

#3 - Header the 1.5" return and supply piping with 2" pipe, and connect all pump pad components with 2"
#4 - Discard the useless Nature2 unit.
#5 - Check the heater to make sure it's rated for 60 - 80 GPM, and if not, set up an appropriate bypass.
#6 - It looks like there's another gizmo between the Nature2 unit and the heater. This should be ID'd and possibly removed.


Also, because the flow restriction from the gizmos and the Hayward unit do NOT affect backwash flow, there's an excellent chance the over-sized pump has blown most of the sand out of the filter.

[Andyman33]

Ugggg...not excited to drop 600-700 bucks for a new filter but I may have to...do you think if there is still sand in it that it may work until next season? Pretty easy to make the switch out otherwise? Probably could change the chlorinator without issues here soon and the piping to 2 inch asap also...the filter is just a big expense that im not sure I can afford at this point though...
Thank u so much for all your help again

[Andyman33]

please help ASAP!! I can't seem to get to the inside of my filter to even see if there is sand...I have the inlet and outlet pipes disconnected as well as the backwash pipe disconnected. I cannot for the life of me get off the top of the filter --- do I just keep twisting? It wont' even budge ---- I have opened the air and water tubes -- even took off the screws that hold the switcher on -- please help me!!

[Andyman33]

still unable to get this done...anyone with some help?

[aylad]

Let me get Ben's or Al's attention back to this thread--they're much better with equipment than I, but don't want you to think we're ignoring you...

Janet

[PoolDoc]

I'm afraid I've never seen that filter, and don't really know anything about how to get it apart.

Sorry.

[Andyman33]

ok, so as you guys suspected...the filter gave out...water came out the middle. In any case, nwo we need to do the repairs as you suggested. BUT I cannot really find the pentair tr30. Is there a link you can give me to help me buy it? Is there another option I have? thanks for everything

[PoolDoc]

BUT I cannot really find the pentair tr30. Is there a link you can give me to help me buy it?

I was being stupid: I meant the 24" Pentair TR60 or the 30" TR100, not the fictitious TR24 or TR30.

[Andyman33]

couple of other questions...I'm assuming that I can't reuse the spider valve that is currently on mine now since its a top mount now and the tr60 is a side mount. Which valve do I get? there are a couple of options by pentair. Also, I'm hoping that I can just use the pump I currently have since it is working fine and just buy the filter. Lastly, I can do plumbing and hopefully with your help I can purchase the correct parts. Is there any reason to hire this out to a professional? Thanks

[PoolDoc]

Yes, you have to get a new valve.

With your small pool, the 1.5" model (SP715x or some such -- I haven't looked) will work OK.

The pump should be OK; you may want a timer if you don't have one, so you can save on the power bill.

Regarding plumbing . . . can you plumb 1.5" and 2" PVC successfully? Have you done it before? Often, when plumbing a filter, things get tight and if you don't have some experience, it can be hard to get them to fit together. Yours shouldn't be too hard, and doing so would give you a chance to remove the Hayward feeder and the Nature2.

Lemme know. Are you wanting just info on POOL parts, or on PVC layout, too?

[Andyman33]

was wondering if it would be better to go with this hayward version (24 inch) side mount
I say so because I can get it much much faster. here is the link. Hayward E3435

http://www.intheswim.com/Pool-Equipment/In-Ground-Pool-Filters/Hayward-Pro-Series-Side-Mount-Sand-Pool-Filters-in-ground-pools/

or they also do a hayward top mount E3310 which is a top mount 31 inch version by hayward

I know that the pentair is ideal but I want to know if it is that much better for my situation and to wait for it (as I can't filter right now obviously). Also anyone with good places to get the Pentair online?

[PoolDoc]

As far as I know, the Hayward Pro-Line (with the side mount valve) is fine. I haven't actually used one, but from what I can see, they should be functionally identical to the Pentair "TR" series filters.

[Andyman33]

whare are the benefits to a sidemount vs top mount filter? Planning on ordering the hayward sidemount tonight but just trying to figure that out.

[PoolDoc]

You can service your filter . . . and add or replace sand, without messing with your piping.