Halfdones's pool

[Halfdone]

OK, So I ended up buying the sand filter and installed. The pool is about 18,000 gallons or 22,000 gallons depending on what calculator I use to calculate it. It is roughly rectangular with diagonal corners and is basically faceted in the corners and around the bottom rather then rounded corners. My pump is a 1hp single speed. The piping is 1 1/2" in-ground and everything above ground is 2" I have been running the pump for 3 days now constantly and have had to backwash 2 times which is to be expected. I am fighting some algae issues and cloudiness. I purchased the K-2006 kit and tested two days ago resulting in these numbers;
FC = .5
CC = 0
PH = 7.8
CH = 80
ALK = 160
CYA = 30+ (ran out of room and black dot never disappeared)

I tried to do a shock treatment Wednesday evening with bleach going off of my roughly calculated 18,000 gallons. I put in 6.3 182oz jugs, which should have got me up to about 30ppm FC. The next morning (Thursday) the FC was back to nothing. After looking into more posts I noticed that the Stabilized chlorine tablets and shock using Sodium dichloro was also a conditioning shock so I hoped to raise my CYA with it. Thursday I put in 2 1lb bags of shock and filled my floater with pucks of the same type. this evening my numbers are as follows;
FC = .5
CC = 1
PH = 7.6
CH = 80
ALK = 140
CYA = 30+ (ran out of room and black dot never disappeared)

Tonight I put in another 2 jugs of bleach and another 2 bags of the same shock. Is there any way to read the CYA when its lower then 30 with this kit? I did get some CYA at the local pool supply but am not sure how much to add to get my level up to the recommended level of around 50. I plan to use the sock method hanging in my skimmer so I don't loose it all with my next backwash.

So with most of my info listed I need some advice.

1. How much CYA do I add to get to where I need to be ( I assume 50 is a good number based on my reading)?
2. will getting the CYA to a good number help with my dramatic chlorine loss problem?
3. I am planning on adding DE to help filter better but will Cellulose work the same or better? (I only ask because I have a new bag of cellulose, or should I take it back and get DE)?
4. Is there anything else I should be checking? The pool supply store said I had a high phosphate problem so we dumped in some phos-free to lower it but I don't know how to test for it.
5. I've dumped probably $50 bucks worth of bleach in the pool in the last 4 weeks and my chlorine levels are pitiful, should I use something else in the interim until I get the CYA up, or just keep dumping in the bleach?
6. In the FC test using the powder, the powder is kind of granulated and doesn't completely dissolve, I end up having to use about 4 tiny spoons full to get the water to turn pink using the .5ppm/10ml test, is that normal?

Thanks for all the advice, I have been reading through the forum for several days now. Sorry about the lengthy post, I like am trying to give as much info as possible rather then too little. Also it seems that I cant start a new post so I had no choice but to continue this one. hopefully I'll get unlocked soon.

Regards,

Mark

[Watermom]

1. You have to decide how you want to add the CYA. Do you want to add some separately and then go the rest of the way to 50 with your pucks and dichlor? Or do you just want to continue using dichlor and monitor til you get to 50 and not add CYA separately? Or ???

2. Yes. When you get some measurable CYA, it will help with chlorine being lost so fast to the sun.

3. I don't know about using the cellulose. Somebody else will have to answer that part of your question.

4. Phosphate remover is the newest thing pool stores are insisting people need. You don't. And, you don't need to test for phosphates in 99.99999% of pools.

5. Depends on what you decide about my response to #1 above.

6. It is normal for some of it not to dissolve. If your chlorine is super low or non-existent, that is why it isn't turning pink. You need to be taking your chlorine higher when you add it so that you never have the chlorine drop this low.


Regarding not being able to start a new thread, that shouldn't be. Are you sure about this? Once you are in the section of the forum where you want your post, you should be able to click on "start new thread" which will be near the upper left. Go to the practice forum near the bottom of the main page of the forum and practice starting a new thread there to see if you can make it work. For now, I'm going to just move this part of your thread into a separate one since we are now dealing with chemistry and not equipment.

[Halfdone]

Thanks watermom for the advice. I'll try the starting a thread in the practice area like you suggested. Last night it was telling me I didn't have the right to yet.

I would like to get the CYA to were I need it as soon as possible. My family is itching to go swimming but we haven't been able to this year at all yet. Which is the quickest way to get me there. Once I am in a comfortable range on the CYA should i stop shocking with the Dichlor and using the pucks, will it send me too high if I continue?

This morning the pool isn't green anymore but an nice aqua blue. It is still cloudy and I can just see the first step. I hope that the DE in the filter will help filter out the cloudiness.

*edit*
after testing my chlorine (FC - .5 CC - 1) and PH (7.5-7.6) are unchanged from last night before I added 2 182oz jugs of bleach and 2 1lb bags of shock.

Regards,

Mark

[Watermom]

Just add the CYA separately and switch to bleach. Since you are fighting algae and will most likely be backwashing frequently, I wouldn't put the CYA into the skimmer but instead put it in an old sock and hang it in front of a return jet. Give the sock a squeeze every now and then to help it dissolve faster. Since you've been using dichlor for a but, I'd aim a little low for the CYA to account for the amount that is already in the water but just not measurable yet. Probably aiming for about a 30ppm dose (4 lbs). would be good. Then, after a week, test CYA and see where you are. You can then decide whether you need to add more or not. Quit using dichlor shock or trichlor pucks. Just use bleach.

To clear the algae, try and keep the chlorine at 15ppm. In an 18K gallon pool, each gallon (4 quarts) of 6% bleach will add about 3.3ppm of cl. Test as many times per day as you can (no such thing as too often) and each time, add enough bleach to get back to 15. Run the pump 24/7 and backwash any time the pressure rises 5-10psi over clean filter pressure. Continue to sustain the high cl until you can go from sundown one evening until within 2 hours of sunup the next morning without losing more than 1ppm of cl and your CC is no greater than 0.5. At that point, I'd suggest running the high cl levels for one additional day for added insurance and then let the cl drift down and keep it in the proper range based on your CYA. (See the Best Guess Table in my signature below.)

Have you added the DE yet? If not, I'd wait until the algae is dead and you aren't having to backwash so frequently as backwashing throws the DE out.

With the K-2006 kit, always use the 10ml sample instead of the 25ml sample to conserve your reagents. The 0.5 accuracy is sufficient.

One last request. To make it easier for us to help you, we are encouraging people to create a signature line with the specs of their pool set up in it. You can do this by clicking on settings in the upper right hand corner of the homepage. We would like you to put the following things in there: type of pool, volume, type of filter, size of pump, and the fact that you have a K-2006. That will help us to be able to answer posts more quickly especially when threads get long. It is time-consuming to have to continually scroll back through a thread to look for basic information. Thanks.

[Halfdone]

Great idea about the signature, done.

I am following your instructions. The algae is fairly dead I think unless there is some still alive on the bottom. The pool is blue but very cloudy. Since the filter is fairly stable at clean-out pressure I went ahead and added a cup of DE to the filter. I did a fresh backwash before adding the DE even though I was only 1psi over nominal. The pressure went up about 4-5psi within about 2 minutes of adding the DE. I did dissolve it in a bucket of water but perhaps I should have added it slower so I could stop at 1psi over nominal. The normal starting pressure is about 15psi so I backwash at 25psi. I will watch it closely and backwash if it gets to 25psi. When adding DE to the sand filter do I use the original starting pressure after the fresh backwash or use the new "DE" pressure as my starting point. Next time I'll add less DE so I only increase about 1psi.

I added 4lb of CYA in a sock and hung it in front of the return line. After about 4 hours its almost gone. Isn't that a bit fast? I expected it to slowly dissolve over several days. I have been checking the FC levels and am still at 8 after about 4 hours since I added Bleach. I should have been at around 15 after my last dose 4 hours ago. I'll re-dose to get back to 15 for the night.

Thanks

[Watermom]

You only want a 1psi increase when the DE is added. Backwash it out and try again. Add a smaller amount. You may not see the pressure rise immediately. It always takes 20-30 minutes to show up in my pool. Pre-dissolving it is right.

It is fast for CYA to dissolve, but even still, I wouldn't test for it for a few days.

[Halfdone]

I backwashed the DE out and reapplied. This time I used about 1/2 cup predisolved and it went up about 1-2lbs. I'll leave it there and keep an eye on it. I see what you mean about it taking 20-30 min for the full increase. I'll figure it out sooner or later how much to apply, then it should be easy after that.

I'll wait for another couple of days for the CYA test but already our Chlorine seams to be lasting a bit longer.

Any ideas on the cloudy water problem. We have tried clarifiers in the past but it didn't do a thing. It almost looks like white smoke in the pool. I can barely make out my second step. I think the particles are so small they pass right through the filter. I am hoping the DE trick will help but would like to get it done quicker. I have been running the filter constantly for 4.5 days now.

On the Chlorine test when checking the CC level do I multiply the CC test with the result from the FC test or do I multiply by the value (1 drop = .5ppm) that I used for the FC test? Does that make sense?

Thanks again, its nice to finally start seeing progress.

[Watermom]

On the CC test, multiply each drop by 0.5ppm.

Resist the temptation to add a bunch of stuff right now. Just bleach. Give your filter a chance to do its job.

[BigDave]

Your CYA may have come right through the sock without being dissolved in which case it is probably sitting on the pool floor but you can't see it through the opaqe pool water. As I understand it, CYA has a very low pH and may damage your liner if it sits on it. I'd brush the bottom as often as possible until you can confirm it is granule free.

[Watermom]

Or vacuum it up and let it dissolve in the filter if there is any on the floor.

[Halfdone]

Ok, so I will go out and sweep and try to see if a cloud comes up off the bottom. If so I'll go ahead and vacuum it up. The problem with that is I cant see to tell if I get it all. I'll do a fresh backwash before vacuuming so I can leave the powder in the filter longer. I tested the CYA this morning and am at about 25, so at least its coming up.

As far as the CC, this morning I am at CC-1 with FC-5.5. I have been using bleach to keep the chlorine up to between 10 and 15 but my CC isn't moving, should I be concerned? What is the Combined Chlorine mean anyway?

[Watermom]

Keep running the high chlorine levels. That CC will come down. But, not with FC of 5.5. Maintain it at shock level. How often are you testing and adding bleach? How does the water look? Getting any better?

[Halfdone]

I bumped up the Chlorine to 15 and will do my best to hold it there. Costco is going to have to deliver a pallet of bleach at our house pretty soon.

The CC is back down to .5 this afternoon. Is it true that the CC will go down as the pool gets sanitized better, such as the FC is doing its job better. It generally takes 1-2 drops for the CC test so that should be .5-1 right?

I am testing 2 to 3 times a day and adding bleach each time to try and keep up over 10 to 15. Again I'll try to keep it at 15 for now.

I swept the pool 2 times today and didn't see much in the way of cloudiness coming from the bottom but its hard to tell with the cloudy water. I did see a bit of green come up off of the steps so I imagine there is some algae sitting down there still. I took out my leaf vacuum that runs off of the hose and ran it around, which produced a couple bags full of leaves sitting on the bottom. Hopefully getting the leaves out will help some as well.

The water is still horribly cloudy.

[Watermom]

Yes, the high cl will drop the CC. Also, the more organic debris (leaves, etc.) you can remove the better. Otherwise your FC will be depleted faster. Run your pump 24/7.

[Halfdone]

I am running the pump 24/7 only taking breaks to backwash if needed and about 10-15 minutes to let the sand settle after the backwash. last night at about 10pm the FC was 14.5, this morning at 11am it was 7. I am testing and adjusting as often as I can and trying to keep it around 15. The flow rate seems fairly good the pool water is flowing around in a circle like a river current, much better rate then my old DE filter. At this rate if I keep the FC at 15 and the pump running constantly how long should it take to clear up the pool?

Thanks,

[Watermom]

Wish there was, but there is no way to tell for sure how long it will take. Sorry.

[Halfdone]

Well, no real progress to speak of.

I've been keeping the chlorine around 15 for more then a week now. When I test it I am never below 7-8 and bring it back up to 15. I have been sweeping it and vacuuming the bottom and keeping the filter running 24/7, but the water is still very cloudy.

Here are the test results from this morning;
FC 11.5
CC .5
PH 7.4
TA 160
CH 70
CYA 25

I was disappointed to see my CYA go down. The highest I measured it was around 35. I did run some water to waste when I was vacuuming and refill but only dropped about 1" of water, that and a couple of backwashes I wouldn't expect my CYA to drop that much.

How long do I need to keep up the shock levels of FC? What can I do about the cloudiness? Can I send a sample of my water somewhere to get a better idea of why its cloudy? This is the first year we have used bleach as our chlorine and my wife is complaining about the cost (about $7-8 per day) and the results. We have never had this cloudy problem in the past. In the past we have used primarily granular chlorine, though I'm not sure what type (triclor, diclor etc.).

I did have a glass patio table break and dump glass in the pool this winter. While I got most of it out a while ago I just went in and swept, vacuumed out the rest yesterday by feel. Is there any change the glass was effecting the water somehow?

Frustrated,

Mark

[Watermom]

I don't think the table has anything to do with this.

Are you losing more than 1ppm of chlorine overnight (from sundown til within 2 hours of sunrise)?

[Halfdone]

I'm not sure if I loose more then 1ppm overnight. I usually get to check it about 9-10am and its at 9-10ppm. I'll make sure its at 15ppm tonight at around 10pm then get up early to check before sunrise. I'll post the results in the morning.

Thanks.

[Watermom]

Don't have to get up before sunrise. Just within a couple of hours of sunrise should be sufficient.

[Halfdone]

Well I got up before sunrise and the level had dropped about 3.5-4ppm. Also as mentioned earlier my CYA level has dropped for some reason. I will be getting my CYA to try and get that leveled up to around 40-50.

I don't know why the bleach is getting used up at night with no sunlight. The pool is clean except for the cloudy water.

[aylad]

If you're losing chlorine overnight with no sunlight, then you have something in the pool that's consuming it, which is also probalby why your water is cloudy. YOu need to keep the chlorine up to shock level, and hold it there until the chlorine consumption overnight stops, running the filter 24/7 and cleaning it as the pressure indicates.
Janet

[Halfdone]

Thank you,

It seems the water is very slowly starting to clear. I have vacuumed it several times to make sure there is nothing on the bottom. I added another dose of CYA to try and bring the level to about 50ppm this time I added it to the filter since the sock method didn't seam to work for me. I haven't been having to backwash the filter hardly at all, I wonder if it is really doing anything. I will continue with the high shock levels as suggested. At this point I am wondering if we will get to use the pool at all this year, which would be a shame if we didn't due to all the cost we have put in in the form of equipment and chemicals.

I'll adjust again tonight and check in the morning to see how much I'm losing overnight.

My numbers this morning are;
FC 8.5 added about 243oz bleach to get back to 15
PH 7.4
CC .5
TA 150
CH 70
CYA didn't check, out of test agent

[aylad]

Keep it up, I know it seems discouraging, but if you stay the course, it will clear. The more consistent you can be about keeping the chlorine level up, the faster it will happen. Have you tried putting a handful of DE into the skimmer to see if it blows through your returns and back out to the pool? That would give you an indication of whether your filter is working correctly or not.

Janet