just got good test kit. HELP PLEASE

[shub_31]

ive been reading this forum for 3 years. I thought that i learned alot. My numbers are so off. ive had numerouse algae blooms overnight. here are my numbers


FC 8
CC.5
PH 7.6
CYA 100
TA 250
CA 0

I know what i should be doing based on tha charts supplied here.
Ihave a 16,500 IG

iknow i should be at 10ppm min
Idid shock but not sure if it was high enough.

PLEASE, WHAT SHOULD I DO?

[PoolDoc]

#1 - Stop using stabilized chlorine -- trichlor tabs, dichlor powder, shock 'blends', etc.
#2 - Test your CYA again, using a 1:1 dilution with tap water. Then, multiply your results by 2.
#3 - If you have any algae now, add 5 gallons of plain 6% household bleach ASAP, otherwise, add 2 gallons.
#4 - Buy a gallon of muriatic acid, and use it to lower your pH to 7.0 - 7.2, with 1/4 gallon doses - READ and follow instructions here:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111
#5 - Once you've done all these things, report the results here.

[shub_31]

I forgot to say I have a vinyl pool and a taylor k2006 kit. thanks for the reply. I must say that i have increased my chlorine level to 22ppm. My pool lacks that sparkle so i thought i still have algae. I wasnt sure if i held 25ppm long enough since i just got my kit after i did it. i will lower my ph and go test cya again. thanks again

=============================

me again. just got some new numbers.
FC 20 man alot of dropping
CC 1
CYA 100

[PoolDoc]

You probably need to read the "Best Guess" page, linked in my signature. 20 ppm is NOT high with 100 ppm of CYA; you may need higher levels if you still have algae.

[shub_31]

before bed I had a FC of 20ppm. I added 2.84 gl of 6% so basically should have raised it to 30ppm
i woke up this mourning to a FC of 20ppm. question is, am i fighting algae still and why doesnt my fc drop like that at lower levels of chlorine. my cya 1s 100

[Watermom]

Hi shub_31. I merged the thread you started this morning with this one. Instead of starting multiple threads about the same problem, it is better to just reply to this one and keep everything together. it gets confusing to help in multiple places at the same time.

Have you done all the things Ben suggested in his post above?

If you lost 10ppm of chlorine overnight, then you are fighting algae and need to continue to shock your pool up to 25 or so. Test as many times per day as you can and each time, add enough bleach to get back to 25ppm. There is no such thing as testing and adding bleach too often when you are fighting something in the water. Continue doing this until you can go from sundown one evening til within 2 hours of sunup the next morning without losing more than 1ppm of cl and also have no greater than 0.5ppm of CC.

[shub_31]

I just added 3 gallons of 6% bleach about 12pm raising FC to 30ppm and no CC. 3 hours later it is down to 22ppm.What is going on. pool is clear and has been clear but still not sparklie. Its sunny out but do i really have some alge problem going on. Does my k2006 test FC that high.

[PoolDoc]

Shub,

When you lose chlorine like that -- especially overnight -- it means you have something in your pool that shouldn't be there. In your case, it's almost certainly algae. Once you start battling algae with chlorine, until it's gone, your pool is in one of 3 possible states:

#1 - Losing
In this state, your pool's chlorine levels will diminish rapidly -- even if you add small doses more -- and the algae will get worse.

#2 - Stalemate.
In this state, you may be able to maintain chlorine IF you keep adding large doses of chlorine, and the algae doesn't get worse . . . but it doesn't really get better, either. This state tends to be an temporary one, on the way to State #1 for a simple reason: the algae never gives up or takes a break, but people do!

#3 - Winning.
In this state, you have high chlorine -- which may STILL be consumed overnight, but you are adding sufficient dose to MAINTAIN high chlorine, and the algae is rapidly dying.

What you have to understand is that, if the algae is NOT dying NOW, you are in state #2 or even #1!

To put it another way, if you are not winning, you are losing!

What you also have to understand is that "winning" does NOT equal "won". You have not "WON", till all the algae is dead, all the algae dust and spores has been filtered or vacuumed away, and all metabolic residue from the algae has been oxidized. You will have achieved this when all the algae is gone, the pool is clear and clean, and chlorine levels 'hold' overnight. Till then, you are either "winning" or "losing", but if you take a break, you lose!

Tonight, add 8 gallons of plain 6% household bleach. Brush the pool in the AM. If the chlorine level tomorrow is below 30 ppm, add enough to take it back above 30 ppm, and brush again in the AM. Continue till every trace of algae is gone, and you have removed all algae dust and debris.

Then test your pool in the PM, and again in the AM, to see if it's stable overnight. If it's not, dose to 35+ ppm again.

[shub_31]

Thanks so much for that awesome answer. Makes perfect sense. Im brushing but see no residue or dust. Ill keep doing it til my level holds. I just got my kit thursday and due to the frequent testing I am running out of fas dp . Its taking me 60 drops to get to my level. What can I do to get me through til I receive more. Thanks

[PoolDoc]

If you've got a children's medicine syringe, you can drop the sample size to 5ml, and then each drop will be 1 ppm, instead of 0.5 ppm.

[shub_31]

Im not following. Fill the syringe(sp?) to 5 then drops. Do i add 2 scoops of powder. Why cant I fill the test tube halfway to 10ml.

============

Sorry. IM stressing. Fill the syringe to 5m. squirt in test vial. I do need to know how many scoops of powder. Thank for your time.

[PoolDoc]

Filling 1/2 way to 10 ml is OK. You'll just be more accurate with a syringe. You need enough powder to get pink - that's all. It's just a dye indicator; if you have pink, you have enough.

[shub_31]

Thanks again. Just went to bed with FC 29 Woke up to 24ppm. Wow im going through alot of bleach. before i started this i used about 60 gallons just trying to keep my pool clear not relizing that i wasnt solving any problems. last year i did the same thing. Many moirnings of waking up to a cloudy pool. I posted another problem with no replies. I know i shouldnt worry about this yet but my concrete deck is pitting like crazy. Many kids dumping water on deck. No calcium at all. Should i eventually add some for my concretes sake and not my vinyl liners sake.thanks

[drband]

You need to test your CYA in the manner Ben instructed in post #2 (see above). The CYA test is tricky to read at best and levels showing approx. 100 could easily be much much higher. Please let us know when you have done the 1:1 dilution CYA test and what level you get. Reason: If your CYA is much higher than 100, (or even right at 100) you may need to take measures to reduce it. It is quite difficult to maintain high enough chlorine to prevent algae and sanitize in a pool with that much CYA. (Been there myself before finding this forum). You will use ridiculous amounts of bleach to keep a high enough chlorine level (see Ben's Best Guess chart) to be effective in a high CYA pool. But first, most importantly, you must know how much CYA is REALLY there.

I had bloom after bloom after bloom when my CYA got in the 100 range years ago... the pool store man just said to keep shocking! Used dichlor shock! Raised my CYA even more!!! Water turned a beautiful transparent emerald green. Thought it was metals... Wrong! It was just algae. My problem did not go away 'til draining a lot of water to dilute CYA, stopping trichlor pucks, and balancing everything properly with the BBB method. You can fix this... easily, but may take a little time. Everybody here will help.

Let us know what your true CYA level is and folks will be ready to help.

[shub_31]

thanks for the info.
I tested my CYA with dilution and its at 100. However i kinda can still see the black with the white ring around it. But barely. So if i need to add more that means my CYA is lower. I have been shocking to 25 to 30ppm.. I do know i have to drain. But given the mid 90s my only option now is to kill the algae and maintain fc of 10 to 15ppm until later in the summer. My alk. is very high at 250ish so I know that needs to be lowered. I did it once last year with the method here. Comments. Thanks

[PoolDoc]

Yeah, just hold the FC at 30 ppm, and brush away at any spots.

Adding borax sufficient to take your borates to 60 ppm will help some too, and will create a certain amount of permanent algae 'resistance' in your pool. You'll need 15 boxes of borax and probably 5 gallons of muriatic acid to compensate, and have a bit left over to lower your pH to 7.0. If you START with the acid and cycle the pH to below 6.8 and then add borax till it's back to 7.2, you'll also tend to remove the excess TA which 'feeds' algae somewhat, too.

By the way, IF you use the DPD-FAS kit, you can run perfectly OK at high CYA. There are some adjustments, and you want to stop using anything but bleach so you don't add MORE CYA.

You can still drain if you like, but you have another option.

[shub_31]

thanks again, however, I thought the taylor kit could only test PH with a max of FC 15ppm. Im at 30. how do I do that.

=============

One more thing. Do I use all of the acid at once to get to 6.8 then add the borax to bring it back up. Your"cycle" is throwing me off. thanks

=============

You guys asked for it. I just thought of something else. If im to lower my ph, why cant I aerate to lower TA before I raise is back up.

[PoolDoc]

thanks again, however, I thought the taylor kit could only test PH with a max of FC 15ppm. Im at 30. how do I do that

#1 - Try it. If the phenol red converts to chlorophenol red, you'll end with a purplish-blue. If not, the test should be valid
#2 - Confirm it - if it worked, check it it by adding 1 drop of thiosulfate from your K2006 to your water sample and mixing BEFORE you add phenol red. If the result with thiosulfate is the same, or just slightly higher, the first test was OK.
#3 - If #1 fails, and you show chlorophenol red, add 3 drops of thiosulfate and mix before adding phenol red. You should get a meaningful result, but it may read 1 color bar high because of the thiosulfate / chlorine reaction.

When you lower pH, it will -- if you act slowly -- also lower TA. If you lower pH, and actively aerate, the TA (really, the CA, carbonate alkalinity) will drop much more rapidly.

[shub_31]

Im in trouble now. After all the help from everyone, Im afraid it may have been a waste of time. I am down to my last 1 maybe 2 tests for chlorine. After 3 days I have used a whole bottle of fasd. Just ordered it from Amato Inds, but dont know how quick they ship. Even then, Ill be out. Not sure what to do. Dont want to overchlorinate. Need to swim this week. In the mid 90s
I did lose 4ppm last night so not over yet.

[Watermom]

If you have a cheap OTO kit (yellow and red drops) you can use it til you get your refills. It will only read to 3 or 5 but you can force it to read higher with a dilution method described here: Testing Without a Good Kit (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/how-to-test-your-pool-without-a-good-testkit.html )

[shub_31]

sounds like a plan but i would have to dilute it like 10:1. its a 6mm vile and ive done 1mm pool water to 5mm distilled and still not high enough to reach 300ppm. how do i do even more. thanks

[aylad]

I'm confused...and hoping the 300 ppm was a typo and you meant 30? If to, use 1:6 ratio and multiply by 7. You're losing some accuracy with each dilution, so you're actually getting a ballpark....

[shub_31]

yes, 30ppm sorry.
I had enough regeant for 2 more tests. last night

FF 29ppm
CC .5-1

This mourning

FF 24ppm
CC .5-1

my wife is starting to question all this. As i said before, the pool was clear, never had algae visable on pool surfaces to where i need to scrub. Only milky or cloudy water. Ive read these great responses over and over but someone needs to tell me why this is taking so long. going on day 4.
By the way i have lowered PH and am currenty aerating to lower TA before i add borax. thanks for any comments

[shub_31]

sorry FF last not was 27ppm
And my TA went from 200 to 250. How the heck did that happen while I was aerating?

[Watermom]

I cannot explain why the big change in TA.

Hang in there with the high chlorine. I know it gets frustrating but you'll win. 4 days isn't all that long to fight the water when something is brewing.

[PoolDoc]

Hey Shub;

Some of the contributors and I have been discussing high Cl + high CYA operation, and there is a better method for testing pH for you. You'll need a gallon of distilled water, a measuring cup, and your pH kit. Simply mix pool water 1:2 with distilled water: 1/4 pool water & 1/2 cup distilled water in a glass measuring cup, stir, and test.

You don't report pH (for obvious reasons) but I'm guessing your pH had climbed quite a bit, which affects measured alkalinity levels in its turn. If you keep lowering pH to below 7.0, and then letting it rise before lowering again, you will lower your TA over time.

Regarding chlorine consumption - it may, or may not be unusual to lose 5 ppm per day.

However, cloudy water in the AM after a clear PM, has always -- in my experience with commercial pools -- been associated with either incipient algae (rarely) or heavy bather load (lotion, urine, sweat) with inadequate chlorination.

So let me ask some more questions and clarifications:
+ your pool is about 17K gallons
+ you mention lots of kids on the deck: how many users in the pool daily?
+ are your users heavy users of lotion or sunscreen?
+ do you have any 'slip and dippers' -- ie, lotion up, lay out, rinse off, repeat ? (This creates heavy chlorine demand.)
+ is your pool a long way from the bathroom and / or have you forbidden wet swimmers in the house? (= pees in the pool)
+ are any of your users competitive swimmers? (USS swimmers are accustomed to pee in the pool. Really. It's universal.)
+ is your pump on a timer? What are the settings?

[shub_31]

Thanks for the response.
My PH was never high. I would add Borax once in a while to get it to 7.6 range.
It as been 4 years that I have opened to a milky pool. The first couple were fine but I was using cal hypo before switching to trichlor pucks
pool is 17,000
Ony my son on most days with maybe 1 friend. Once or twice a week maybe 4 or five kids
yes to the lotion fanatics Kids r always slip dippers (wifes doing)
I try to keeps wet swimmers out of house but they do go pee inside
pump has been running 3 months straight.(yes really) electricity isnt an issue. Wife likes a clear clen pool

[shub_31]

Im in trouble now. As soon as I replied wife told me our 7yr old isnt alowed in pool. Had runny poo from swimming yesterday in 30ppm. Mine was green. I know i didnt drink any pool water

[PoolDoc]

Can't fight City Hall! Do what you gotta do.

However, "runny poo" is not a symptom of chlorine over exposure.

In your last post, you mention opening cloudy, but earlier you'd mentioned cloudy in the AM -- different, unrelated problems. Which are you trying to solve? Cloudy in the spring, or cloudy in the morning? I thought it was the latter; if it's the former, we've been on the wrong track.

Regarding your chlorine demand -- if you have heavy lotion load (and it sounds like you do) and you have frequent peeing in the pool (and I suspect you do), 5 ppm loss per day is not surprising, so the PM to AM drop may be normal for you, and your pool.

If your pool is clear now, go ahead and let it drop (as if you have a choice ;)), but stop the drop at 15, and then hold the 8 - 15 ppm level you need for 100 ppm CYA. If that's intolerable to City Hall, you'll have to drain and refill till you get your CYA down to 40 ppm or so.

BTW, I'm 99% sure your poo issues have nothing at all to do with your pool issues. But, as I have always told my commercial customers here, even when the health inspector is wrong, they are still the inspector, so if we can we go along!

[shub_31]

Now im confused. Every spring ive open to a couldy milky pool. Then if i ever let my FC drop to near 0 I would wake up to a cloudy pool. I assumed my high CYA as been allowing algae blooms to go on for years. Now you want me to drop my FC. I still cant maintain my FC overnight. I dont want to stop shocking until thats accomplished unless you recommend it. Ive spent alot of money on bleach so far. Its very hot now so I cant drain now. i plan on doing it this fall. Thank you very much for replying. By the way my wife will have to suck it up since ive gone this far

[PoolDoc]

Hi Shub;

Different strokes, and all that. For some of our users once the wife lays down the law, the discussion's over.

OK, you've added a bit of information I didn't have before (maybe I overlooked it?). Anyhow, it is ABSOLUTELY NORMAL for a pool that's being used regularly to get cloudy overnight if the chlorine drops to zero the preceding day, ESPECIALLY when you have heavy lotion users, using the pool. To prevent that, you MUST keep the chlorine above the minimum level shown in the Best Guess chart -- if you haven't read that page, you really should do so -- for YOUR CYA level, whatever it is.

Currently, with your CYA at 100, that means the MINIMUM allowable level is 8 ppm.

Without considering your wife's preference, here's what I would recommend you do:
+ Hold your current levels for 2 days AFTER the last trace of any algae. (You may already be past that.)
+ Once you've gone 2 days with NO algae, and no slipperiness on the sidewalls, let the chlorine drop to 10 ppm.
+ When the chlorine drops to 8 - 10 ppm, add 2 gallons of plain 6% bleach that evening. Test chlorine daily (for now) and repeat the 2 gallon dose in the evening of each day you see a level below 10 ppm FC.
+ Meanwhile, use muriatic acid to drop your pH to just below 7.0. Let it rise to 7.4 (it will); repeat the acid dose when it reaches 7.4. This will gradually lower your TA.
+ If you want to do so, you can ALSO raise the borate (borax) level in your pool to 60 ppm or so. This will make your pool more resistant to algae, but NOT to lotion / urine / body oil based cloudiness. Let me know if you want to do so -- it will take 16 boxes of 20 mule team borax and around 4 gallons of muriatic acid if you want to do this.
+ Do what you can to eliminate peeing in the pool - for a lot of boys, it's as simple as giving them permission to "pee behind that bush over there"! Urine really does use up a lot of chlorine.

[shub_31]

past steps 1 and 2
If i havent killed the invisable algae problem will i get another bloom quick if i drop below 10ppm, say 5 by accident
I dumped 4gl of acid now to begin aerating.
Havent lowered yet so no added borax
Do i need additional acid and borax to increase borates after im done aerating and returned normal to PH
Hope i dont sound like too much of an idiot. I stress alot over the pool. And am impatient. Thanks for your help

[PoolDoc]

If i haven't killed the invisible algae problem will i get another bloom quick if i drop below 10ppm, say 5 by accident

It's certainly possible. Usually, when people drop below what they should, they get lower than they think, for longer than they think. What I've told my commercial customers for years, that if the chlorine gets below 0.5 ppm (on pools with CYA=30), the pool WILL be cloudy the next day. Usually, it is.

In warm weather, pools need to be EFFECTIVELY chlorinated 100% of the time; not 95% or even 99% of the time.


I dumped 4gl of acid now to begin aerating.
Use the dilution with distilled water method to check your pH NOW!!

You do NOT want to get below 6.0 at ALL. It WILL damage your liner. If it is low, go get 10 boxes or so of borax, and add 2 to start, and then 1 every hour till you get back up above 7.0. (You have to go above 7 because your kit can't distinguish 6.8 from 5.8!)



Do i need additional acid and borax to increase borates after im done aerating and returned normal to PH

Yes. Acid use to lower pH from borax is separate from acid use to lower TA. However, any borax you've added this season for ANY purpose counts toward the total.


Hope i don't sound like too much of an idiot. I stress a lot over the pool. And am impatient. Thanks for your help

Nah, pretty much normal for a nervous pool owner.

[Watermom]

For some of our users once the wife lays down the law, the discussion's over.


Only some you say? What's wrong with the rest of them?? I can't figure that one out!


Shub --- never add a big dose of anything at one time -- except bleach when you are shocking the pool. Of everything else, it is always better to use smaller doses and gradually get to targets than risk overshooting them.

[PoolDoc]

Snort!

[shub_31]

Ok. Added 1 1/2 box of borax. Took ph to 7.0. Still aerating with 50ppm reduction in TA based on 250ppm earlier. Pretty much no sun today, sum, 91F. Check FF with dilution and appears to be 28-30ppm. It may be holding. Crossing fingers.

[PoolDoc]

Good!.

[shub_31]

im trying to upload some picture for you to see but not having much luck. best i did was profile pic

[shub_31]

i figured it out. I posted pics in the gallery titled pics for everyone who helped SHUB Please feel free to move them here if u can thanks

[PoolDoc]

Email them to me - the vBulletin attachment function loses pictures every time I upgrade, and I'm sick of it.

Sent them to poolforum AT gmail DOT com

[shub_31]

Back in business. Ordered new regeants got them in one day. Go Amatto!!
Anyways tested FF at 4pm 20ppm. Big rain storm came through. FF dropped to 15ppm.What the? Istill want to let it drop to 10 like you said. Im afraid to. I still think its dropping overnight yet, but not much. Also my TA dropped from 200 to 175 so far. Should I really do it Mr. Ringer. Thanks

[aylad]

If you're losing chlorine overnight, then sustain the shock level. If you're not, then let it drift down.

[PoolDoc]

Aylad, we're not sure why he's losing. But he's already sustained high chlorine for 3 - 4 days with not change, but high water quality.. So I recommended dropping to to operational level, to see how it will run.

"Should I really do it, Mr. Ringer"
I'm not sure what you mean.

[shub_31]

Im baffeled.

Test last night
FF 28
CC .5ish

This mourning
FF25
CC0ish

Helppppppppppp.

[BigDave]

Sounds to me like you're winning. You consumed free chlorine last night getting rid of your residual combined chlorine.

You report 0ish for CC, did the sample show pink when you added the R-0003?

[shub_31]

a hint of pink. i think half a drop would get rid of it im using 5ml test

[PoolDoc]

Shub, I really think you need to let your chlorine drop, and see what happens.

[shub_31]

sounds like a plan. starting now. just in time for 100 degree temps next to days to uck the chorine out. thanks

[shub_31]

Just had an idea. What if myCYA is lower than what i think. Would that explain the extra loss of chorine since my shock levels should be lower

[PoolDoc]

If you tested it correctly with the Taylor K2006, it's not lower than you think.

We don't fully understand all that goes on when you chlorinate pools; no one does fully understand all that chemistry. It gets very, very complex. So as a practical matter, we all have something of the attitude, that "if it's working, even if we don't understand, we should leave it alone".

Again, I think you need to apply some P.O.P., let the chlorine drop, use the pool, and see if all works OK.

Ben

* Pool Owner Patience.