Using a Nature 2 system with the BBB method

[tdkorson]

What alterations do I need to make to the BBB system, if I have a nature 2 purifier?

[aylad]

Nature 2 adds copper and silver to the water. When copper levels get high enough, you can get green staining of the pool, blonde hair, fingernails, etc. So you're going to need to either use a metal sequestrant or keep the chlorine and pH on the lower side--which means keeping your stabilizer on the lower side and adding chlorine more often.

[tdkorson]

If I wanted to get rid of the nature 2 and go total BBB, Any conversion issues I should be aware of?

[aylad]

No, not really, since what you have is already a chlorine pool--the only issue would be whether there's already enough copper in your pool to create a problem, and you won't really know that until you shock the pool. Several of our forum members were prior N2 users and just leave the system in place but without the mineral cartridges. Have there been any reports of hair or nails turning green after swimming in your pool? Can you shock your pool without the water turning clear but greenish?

[tdkorson]

I'm very late getting the pool going this season ( I had some plumbing issues). It was a green swamp. I have just shocked it hard and have continued to shock it daily. After a week it still isn't quite clear, but much better, and yes greenish. Haven't had any problems with hair or nails from the pool. I have ordered a test kit from Amazon and will check everything as soon as it gets here, but from my simple test kit I know the PH is 6.8 or lower, so I'm going to add Borax tonight.

The pool company had me add 16 lbs of baking soda before starting the shock treatment.

[aylad]

Yes, go ahead and get the Borax in to get your pH up, and if you've been shocking it, keep up the shocking process until it all clears up and then if there is staining, we can help you deal with that later. Make sure your pump/filter are running 24/7 and you're cleaning the filter as the pressure indicates.

[tdkorson]

how much borax to start with and how many gal of bleach each evening?

[Watermom]

Add a box of Borax slowly to the skimmer while the pump is running, breaking up any clumps. Test it a few hours later (or tomorrow if you add it this evening) and add more if needed. You need to get the pH above 7.0. Once your pH starts moving, go with half box additions.

Do you have current testing results for chlorine and for CYA? We need those to really be able to advise well on bleach amounts. How high have you been taking the chlorine when you shock it? I can tell you that in your pool, each quart of 6% bleach will add 3ppm of chlorine to the pool.

[tdkorson]

one cup of Borax did the trick. My PH up to about 7.7

Last night I added 4 bottles of bleach (1.42 gals per bottle) and now the chlorine OTO test shows off the scale high.

[Watermom]

I'm not sure how a cup of Borax in a 20K gallon pool raised the pH up from 6.8 to 7.7??? Maybe you meant one box. Or tester error or something, but oh well. As long as the pH is above 7.0, that is what is important.

Your 4 bottles of bleach would have added 17.2ppm of cl to the pool. Until your test kit arrives you can use a dilution method to test the water which is described here: Testing Without a Good Kit (http://poolsolutions.com/gd/how-to-test-your-pool-without-a-good-testkit.html )

[tdkorson]

I just found the report the pool place did A little over a week ago


0 s acid
40 alkalinity
7.1 ph
0 chloine
125 hardnesss


Since then I have added 4 lbs chlorine per evening
16lbs of baking soda to get started
And a cup of borax last night

I'll stop and get some stabalizer this evening


I'm not sure how a cup of Borax in a 20K gallon pool raised the pH up from 6.8 to 7.7??? Maybe you meant one box. Or tester error or something, but oh well.

--TESTER/cheap TEST KIT ERROR.

[tdkorson]

The pool is still cloudy. I can see the bottom of the shallow area, but not the deep end. I was not able to get stabilizer so my stabilizer is still 0, but I'm shocking at night.

1. How long should it take to clear up shocking nightly. It has been over a week already.
2. How much bleach should I add nightly?

[Watermom]

There is no way to know for sure how long it will take, but the more consistently you keep it at shock level, the faster it will go. How high are you taking the chlorine each evening? Test an hour after shocking tonight. Then, test again in the morning within 2 hours of sunup. See how much chlorine you lose. If it is more than 1ppm, then add enough bleach to get it back up to 15 or so. In a 20K gallon pool, each gallon (4 quarts) of 6% bleach will add about 3ppm of chlorine. Run your pump 24/7 and backwash when your filter pressure rises 5-10psi over clean filter pressure.

[rcy100]

I have a Duoclear system (one half of the unit is a SWCG, the other half is a Nature 2 cartridge). I was keeping the chlorine level around 1 per the instructions, but was suffering from brownish stains appearing on my pump and filter baskets and my return eyeballs. Last fall I yanked out the Nature 2 part, did an ascorbic acid treatment and removed the stains. So far (including the tail end of last season - maybe a couple of months) and almost three months this year, I have not had the stains return.

My suggestion - get rid of the Nature2 system (you don't have to do any plumbing, just pull the cartridge out and don't replace it) and run your chlorine at the recommended level relative to your CYA level.

[tdkorson]

This forum is sure right about the inability of pool places to test water. My kit doesn't get here till Monday. I was in town this morning and get the water tested at two different places. The first place used a strip and gave me readings of:
fc 10
ph 6.9
alkalinity 135
hardness 100
Stabilizer 35

On the same water the second place used another method and got:

fc 5
ph 7.4
alkalinity 130
hardness 30
Stabilizer 81

copper 1.0

The first place said I need to change my sand...

I can just barely see the deep end of the pool

I'll keep shocking every evening

[PoolDoc]

Nice set of comparisons - thanks!

[tdkorson]

What is the deal about changing sand? Does it ever need to be changed? If so, how often?

The local pool company offered the opinion that the algae is dead, just not filtered out.

[aylad]

The sand doesn't need to be changed, unless you were previously using Bacquacil or some other chem system that goops up the sand. But if it's a chlorine pool, and has always been, then no need to change it. One of our mods, Poconos is going on 14 years with his sand, and I think Watermom's at 11 years with hers.

If the pool is blue/cloudy, and you're not losing chlorine when testing at night and again before the sun hits the pool in the morning, then most likely the algae is dead and just needs to be filtered. Assuming your filter is working properly, you can also add a handfull of DE to the filter to help catch finer particles. If you're still losing chlorine overnight, however, then you're still fighting something in the water.

[PoolDoc]

If it's green, it's not dead.

If it's brown powder, it could be dead algae. Or, it could be something else.

[tdkorson]

Been brushing, filtering, brushing, for a few days now. Regardless of any other problems I might have, it seems that the filter is not working properly. When I vacuum the pool, the supposedly filtered jet of water back into the pool is very very dirty. It seems as though I'm just circulating the dirt and dead algae.

Also when I backwash, the water in the glass jar does not seem very dirty. Any ideas?

[tdkorson]

Also, the pressure on the filter does not seem to rise much even after 24 hours of filtering filthy water

[PoolDoc]

it seems that the filter is not working properly. When I vacuum the pool, the supposedly filtered jet of water back into the pool is very very dirty
. . . .
Any ideas?


Pretty much what you think: repair or replace your filter!

[tdkorson]

OK, but what can go wrong with a simple sand filter? The top controls seem to function correctly - nothing seems mechanically broken. I asked about changing the sand earlier and the reply was that sand lasts forever - so what is there to fix? What possibly could be wrong?

Is there any repair I can try other than just purchasing a new filter?

[PoolDoc]

+ Your sand may be gone, typically because the filter is too small for the pump, and you've blown it out during backwash.
+ You may have coarse sandblast sand in your filter, instead of properly sized filter sand.
+ Your pump may be much too big for the filter, and is blowing the dirt through sand -- if your CLEAN filter pressure is over 15 - 18 psi, this is likely.
+ Your sand may be clumped from sun tan lotion, Baquacil or other contaminants, allowing bypass channels to form.
+ Or all of the above could be true.

Since your builder (I assume) sold you a Nature2 unit, the 'bogus-ness' factor of your equipment set up is likely to be high.

[tdkorson]

Thanks. So I guess my next step is to take the top off the filter and see what is going on inside. I'll have to cut some plumbing, so I need to head to the hardware store first. In the meantime:

My "after backwashing" pressure runs about 10-12 psi. Does that sound about right?
My filter is the Hayward s-244T with effective filtration area of 3.14 sq ft, a filtration rate of 20 GPM/sq ft, Filtration and backwash design flow rate of 62 GPM, maximum working pressure of 50 psi; holding 300lbs of sand.
My Pump motor is the 1 HP A.O. Smith 1081 design ST1102 single speed motor
Are the motor and filter sized right for each other?

[PoolDoc]

Yea, the Hayward S244T design sucks -- the sand bed depth is too shallow. 15 GPM / sft is optimistic on that filter; 20 is ridiculous. Your filter pressures would be OK if everything else is, but if the sand's mostly gone, you'd get those low pressures just because there's nothing there to create resistance.

The good news is that it's really easy to work on, just tedious with all those bolts.

Your pump performance is determined by the pump, not the motor -- you need the pump M/N rather than the motor M/N

[tdkorson]

Looks like I have the 3/4 HP Hayward STX 2600 super pump

[PoolDoc]

STX2600 is not a valid model number for a Hayward Super Pump. Possible models are:

SP2600X5 (1/2 HP up rate rate)
SP2605X7 (3/4 HP up rate -- 1/2 HP full rate)
SP2607X10 (1 HP up rate -- 3/4 HP full rate)

[tdkorson]

I got that model number from the pool store where I purchased a replacement impeller a while ago. I've looked physically at the pump, but don't see a model number. Do you know where the model number is stamped, or how to tell which model I have?

[waterbear]

My Pump motor is the 1 HP A.O. Smith 1081 design ST1102 single speed motor
Are the motor and filter sized right for each other?

Looks like I have the 3/4 HP Hayward STX 2600 super pump

STX2600 is not a valid model number for a Hayward Super Pump. Possible models are:

SP2600X5 (1/2 HP up rate rate)
SP2605X7 (3/4 HP up rate -- 1/2 HP full rate)
SP2607X10 (1 HP up rate -- 3/4 HP full rate)

Houston we have a problem. The AOsmith motor is a replacement and it is a FULL RATED 1 hp motor. If your pump wet end says it's a 3/4 hp then your motor is oversized for your wet end. It is VERY oversized for the wet end since the superpump line is all uprated so this that would be a .5 hp wet end.

IF your pump is Model 2610X15 which the the uprated 1.5 hp superpump (equivalent to a 1 hp full rated pump) then the motor is correct for the wet end.

This could explain why your filter is not working properly. How long ago was the pump motor change out?

[PoolDoc]

Waterbear, I'm emailing you right now.

[tdkorson]

1. The motor was replaced last July by a place that rewinds motors. The original got hit by lightning.

2. I'm still not sure how to find the exact model number of my superpump.

[PoolDoc]

Actually, at this point, what matters is what impeller and diffuser they installed. You can take a Super Pump case, and by changing out the impeller, diffuser and motor, make it in to any other Super Pump.

Do you happen to have the invoice from that work? It might show the part numbers for the impeller and diffuser, and if so, will answer the question definitively. As it happens, I doubt that the pump is the problem. I'm discussing the issue with Waterbear.

Meanwhile, you DEFINITELY need to check out your filter interior. So get out your sockets and ratchet and open the thing!

[tdkorson]

I'll get the part number for the impeller from the pool place Monday morning. I got a couple of unions at the store today. I'll cut the plumbing and dive into the filter interior tomorrow.

[PoolDoc]

You shouldn't have to cut *anything* to open the filter!

[tdkorson]

How do I get the top off without cutting the pvc pipes? They don't have a union. My intent was to cut the pipes and install a union.

Is it possible to loosen the top clamps and scoot the base out from under the controls and plumbing on top??

[PoolDoc]

My bad!

I'm sorry, I was confusing the S244T with the older bolted Hayward filter. Forget all the stupid stuff I said about that; I should have checked the model number. You still need to check the sand, but will -- as you knew -- have to cut pipes to check the sand in a top-mount filter like yours.

[tdkorson]

I opened the filter. What a mess. There was a huge channel from top to bottom 6-8" wide. Some of the sand was very hardened. No wonder no filtering was taking place. So now there is new sand, and the plumbing has couplers in it.

Pump will be running 24/7 for a while. In a day or two I hope to see marked improvement.

[PoolDoc]

Just FYI; often bad sand means you've been using things the pool store sold you that you would have been better off leaving in the pool store!

[tdkorson]

yes, in my case, 17 years of junk sold by the the pool company. I know better now. I'll let you know how the filtering goes now that the filter is working correctly.

[PoolDoc]

Good luck!

[tdkorson]

Overnight has made a big improvement! I suspect it will take several days of filtering, vacuuming, brushing, etc., but real progress is being made!

[PoolDoc]

Great!

[tdkorson]

BTW. I checked with the pool store, and the parts guy said that the impeller that I have a 3/4 hp impeller on a Hayward super pump.

[PoolDoc]

Yes, but is it a 3/4 UP-rate or 3/4 FULL-rate impeller?

Never mind -- I think you've found and fixed your problem. If it's working, it's working, and don't mess with it, unless you just like to tinker!

[tdkorson]

Success! The water is sparkling clear. The dead algae is all filtered out and vacuumed off the bottom.

Remaining problem - Lots of green stain at the water line and a fair bit of stain on the bottom off the pool. What is the best way to remove the stain?

[PoolDoc]

"Green stain" is generally live algae! Brush & chlorinate and do NOT let your chlorine levels get low, even for a second!

Greenish blue stains can be copper. That's a whole other deal.

[tdkorson]

I am documented red-green color blind, so forget what I said about green stain. I just asked my wife to describe the stain color and she says it is yellow with a slight brownish tint.

[PoolDoc]

At the water line -- pollen, dirt, lotion, metals are common causes.

At the bottom -- mustard algae.

Brush, chlorinate . . . and scrub the water line with a baking soda paste on a sponge. If that doesn't touch it, hold a vitamin C tab against the stain. If THAT removes it, it's metal based.

[tdkorson]

Vitamin C does the trick. Rubbing tablets on the stains just above the current water line got them all off, but the stains at and just below the water line and on the fiberglass steps remain. So it looks like I should try an ascorbic acid treatment.

Question. My fc is down to 0, ta is about 100 and CYA is 65, but my PH is 8.2 Should I lower the Ph a bit before using the ascorbic acid? Any advice about about the best sequestering agent to use?