After adding Borax, water is drying out skin.

[Willjay]

Hello, and I'd like to thank everyone in advance. This forum has been enlightening.

I'd always been interested in the Borax treatment to the pool and after finding "The great sodium tetraborate experiment" and a few other threads and info here and around the web, I decided I was going to do it.
Starting last Tuesday I began adding the Borax (20 mule team) along with the muriatic acid. I have an 18k-ish gallon pool and I added 14 boxes of 20 mule team and 3.5 gallons or so of acid over the next several days. Half between Tuesday and Friday and the last half on Friday and Saturday morning. Saturday and Sunday's swims made our skin feel drier than it ever had before. Yesterday seemed a little better, but I can't say I'm encouraged. We have a SWG and have always loved the feel while swimming and after. I hope I didn't screw up a good thing.

My chemistry per dropper kit and test strips ( not I don't own a k2006)((Yet!))

18,000-ish gallon gunite and plaster pool
Temp: 88-90
Salt: 3000 (according to control panel)
pH: 7.6 titration and strip
FC: 10
TC: 10 (both by test strip)

TA: 120 titration and strip
CYA > 50 but < 100 (again, test strips)

My chlorine was running a touch high because I had left the generator off for a few days while adding the borate and additional salt. I "boosted" and shock-bagged the pool to catch up for that and the large load of kids Saturday on my PPool. Also, I was adding small amounts of acid throughout the weekend to keep my pH lower, I'd like to lower my TA a bit, but I doubt I ever got below 7.2.

Here is my question. Is water condition that is making our skin feel dry, being caused by the addition of borax and is it a temporary one (perhaps incomplete solution or chemical breakdown/reaction.)?

[waterbear]

I would have to say it is from the high FC level with an unknown CYA level. 10 ppm is the highest strips can test so your might very well be much higher. I also question your test results because you sald pH was done by strips and tktration. pH is not a titration test in pool test kits.

Also, what is the borate level? Have you tested it? If you had read the thread I started on borates you would know that you do need to test the levels.

My suggestion is to get the Taylor test kit and a tube of LaMotte borate test strips and to not go into your pool until your FC is around 3-4 ppm since I suspect that your CYA is lower than you think (test strips are notorious for not testing CYA accurately.)

As far as TA it would have been better to lower it to 70 ppm BEFORE adding the borates but, once again, you need a good test kit for that such as the Taylor, which has an acid demand test to tell you how much acid you need to add to get the pH to the desired target.

also 14 boxes of borax would take 4 gallons of acid.

Borax should not make the skin feel dry. High chlorine can and will.

[CarlD]

Yes, I have Hach test strips I use (gasp!) as a go-no-go test of chlorine in my pool. I cannot trust the TC (frequently lower than FC, an impossibility), the TA, or the pH. The CYA test hasn't once said I've had any CYA when it's been as high as 35ppm. For me, strips are the canary in the coal mine, no more.

Carl

[Willjay]

Thank you Waterbear and CarlD. I've read many of both of your comments on this forum already. You knowledge has been very helpful already in filling my knowledge gaps and debunking some of the bad advice I've been given.

The pH test is the standard 5 kit done with the reagent drops, yah not a pH titration, and I do have an acid demand test available.

With regard to the CYA results on the test strip they are much closer in color to the 50 ppm than the 100. I don't know if that information is helpful. I've never intentionally added CYA to my pool, but it's something that I started to take note of after reading this site and since than have realized it's in the bag-o-schocker from sam's club that I've been using on my pool once a week (only in summer) per the pool store and pool company experts advice.

I turned down my generator percentage for the chlorine. We'll see tonight how that is going.

Also, one more thing. I added the DE to my sand filter and have had to flush it out twice. Starting with a 15 Lb running pump pressure. I added a slurry of DE to the skimmer and increased it's pressure by 1.5 -2 Lbs and I left it alone (now running at 17 Lbs +/-). The next day my filter was running over 30 Lbs. Initially shut off the pump, shifted the flow to backflow, but changed my mind before turning it back to normal flow and turn the pump back on. I noticed that the jets were then jetting a slight cloudiness into the otherwise clear pool that hadn't been happening before I messed with it. So I back flushed and tried again adding the slurry of DE with the exact same results (ie initial success but 12 hours later pump runs up over 30 Lbs) Tried again last night and will have to wait till this evening to see result since I'm at work today. I know this shouldn't affect pool chemistry, but I can't discount the affect millions upon million of tiny glass skeletons potentially attaching to my skin might have.

[waterbear]

DE in the water will not really have any impact on water chemistry but might have a slight drying effect on the skin since it is a dessicant. Good news is that it WILL filter out given time. How much DE did you put in your sand filter? We normally recommend starting with half a cup in a slurry: waiting about an hour or so to check the pressure and if you don't have a 1 psi rise in pressure add another half a cup slurry until you do. Most sand filters need between 1/2 cup to 2 cups of DE to get a 1 psi filter increase and the increase does not occur immediately. It usually takes a few hours as the filter "gets dirty" ( a dirty filter will filter better than a clean filter ) and the pressure to increase. Adding the DE just starts this process faster than it normally would by filling in between the sand grains and filtering out smaller particles. As you have found, if you dont wait long enough or add too much DE (2 psi from DE alone is too much DE) the filter pressure will rise very quickly and you will have to start all over again after backwashing with less DE.

[Willjay]

Probably a cup the first time, less the second, and even less, around half a cup, this last time. We'll see how it's running tonight.

[Willjay]

My water chemistry yesterday

chorine drop test indicates greater than 3 with a pH of 7.5;

The strips indicated, on two separate tests;
FC: 3-5
TC: 3-5

TA 120
CYA around close to the 50 ppm color

Checked my pump in the evening and it was running around 20#. Which is 5 over instead of 15 over, so we're making progress. Will redo, but my pool was as clear as I've ever seen it. My 11 year old son even noticed (and he isn't a "noticer"). I've seen it this clear before, but it's usually fleeting and unexplainable.

Also, my pH is holding steadier than normal. 7.5 two days after adding acid is, for me, uncharacteristic. It usually like to jump right back up above 7.6 within a day.

[waterbear]

Get yourself a better test kit (Taylor K-2006) and then use it to drop the TA to 70 ppm. You will find you have even better pH stability. Then use the Taylor kit to get the CYA to 80 ppm.
You just cannot do it with strips. They do not have the resolution and you inexpensive drop kit is not going to cut it either. I am going to guess it has a comparator for the chlorine test that has shades of yellow. Right?
If it does it only tests total chlorine, not free chloirne and combined chlorine, no matter what the instructions might say! OTO does not accurately measure FC.

[Willjay]

I'm planning on it Waterbear, I'm just going to have to wait a week or two to purchase it.

I have a question about your recommendation of CYA at 80. If in the evening I'm still running 3 - 5 ppm of chlorine after a 95 F day and pool water temps around 90 F with a pool in virtually no shade, do I really need to increase my stabilizer? Is it preferable, all things being equal, to run your chlorine at the lowest ppm that is still effective and sustainable?

[waterbear]

Not in a salt pool. Higher CYA directly translates into lower cell output/pump run time to maintain the same FC level which directly translates into less outgassing of CO2 from aeration created by hydrogen gas generation n the cell which directly translates into slower pH rise/better pH stability.

Lower cell output also translates into longer cell life.

[Willjay]

That's interesting, WB. Thanks for all the advice and help. You guys are great.

I checked my pH last night and it's still 7.5. Unprecedented for me to hold this pH this many days after adjusting.

The DE in the sand filter project has it running 2 1/2 to 3 pounds over normal. The water is gin clear, the best it's ever looked.

Oh, a following up on the thread title. I've had no noticeable issues with skin drying. It feels great to me. It will have to pass the big test over the weekend, my wife's opinion. She doesn't usually get in the pool during the week. I'll report back on her experience after the weekend.

[Willjay]

Tested my pH over the weekend and it had finally pushed up to 7.6. It usually would bounce back up to that after a day or two.

My wife swam over the weekend, she said the water felt great and loves how clear and sparkling the pool water is. She also said her skin was a little dry, but not anything like the previous weekend or to any degree that she'd find objectionable (which says a lot since she's a lotion addict). She also conceded that the pool water might do that anyway with or without the borax, but that she's only noticing because, after the addtion of the borax, she is now taking note of the way it makes her skin feels after a swim. For me, I have no problems. I don't feel dry so much as I feel clean, if that makes any sense.

Trying to lower my TA at present per Evans recommendations. presently and eternally at ≈ 120. I'll order my good test kit through the link over the weekend. Still a little apprehensive about raising my CYA levels to 80.

[waterbear]

Still a little apprehensive about raising my CYA levels to 80.

Why? It really is to your advantage. People are afraid of CYA but there is a lot of evidence that running higher levels in salt pools or in climaTes that get a LOT of sun is advantageous. The problems of high CYA only happens when it is uncontrolled and unexpected. Running your CYA at 80 ppm and your FC at 5% of your CYA or 4 ppm is really ideal.

[Willjay]

I'd seen in another thread discussing higher chlorine levels to compensate for higher CYA levels conceding that it was fine although it might irritate the eyes more. This is not desirable. I'm sure it was for much higher levels of CYA than 80 but I think I got my wires crossed about the chlorine levels I'd have to run.

But your last post says it would be running "FC at 5% of your CYA or 4 PPM" which I have no problem with and is already at least what my chlorine level is and there are no complaints.

Incidentally I've managed to lower my total alkalinity to closer to 100 over the weekend. The pool store guys, as well as a salt cell rep I talked with over the phone told me that to lower alkalinity you should add the acid when the pumps weren't on. My TA's never moved.

[chem geek]

I'd seen in another thread discussing higher chlorine levels to compensate for higher CYA levels conceding that it was fine although it might irritate the eyes more. This is not desirable. I'm sure it was for much higher levels of CYA than 80 but I think I got my wires crossed about the chlorine levels I'd have to run.
I don't know where you read that but it is unlikely to be true. The active chlorine level in the water with an FC that is 5% of the CYA level is less than then equivalent of 0.05 ppm FC with no CYA so 20 times lower than normally found in tap water. The active chlorine level is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio, not to FC alone. A high FC, by itself, doesn't mean anything except how much chlorine is in reserve -- it does not determine chlorine's strength (reaction rate). The chlorine bound to CYA reacts at least 100 times more slowly than unbound active chlorine (i.e. hypochlorous acid).

[waterbear]

Incidentally I've managed to lower my total alkalinity to closer to 100 over the weekend. The pool store guys, as well as a salt cell rep I talked with over the phone told me that to lower alkalinity you should add the acid when the pumps weren't on. My TA's never moved.

Totally false and this bit of misinformation just refuses to die even though it has been debunked again (http://www.poolhelp.com/acidcolumn.aspx) and again (http://jspsi.poolhelp.com/ARTICLES/JSPSI_V1N2_pp16-30.pdf)!

THIS (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html) is how to lower TA!

[Willjay]

Yah, Evan, the No-pump-acid-add method never did anything for me. And I've tried it many times over the years. However, last weekend I followed this sites advice and I managed to drop it to closer to 100. Had my nephews in town over the weekend and had a nice lower pH pool waiting for them to do their thing. Worked like a charm.

Also, you and chem geek have sold me on the raising my CYA. Will do it after my good kit comes in.