Culator -- Solution or Just Another "Pool Store" Product?

[Lawrosa]

I have ordered Culator, and will let you know how it works,

I contacted them for free samples, or perform a test on a pool and document it. I was trying to contact Ben regarding this or someone that may guide it along. This is what I got from them.

[SNIP #1 by PoolDoc]

Then this after I told them what I wanted to do and I wanted no out of pocket expenses.

[SNIP #2 by PoolDoc]

Thats where I am at so far. I am curious to know if it works. He said it removes .8ppm of metals in a 20,000 gal pool. So if you had copper.8ppm and iron.8ppm would it remove .4ppm of each??? You know what I mean?

[Lawrosa]

Can someone delete the info above regarding the e mail response from Culator? I was told not to post from Culator with out consent.

Thanks

I had follow up e mails above from curlator regarding a possible test pool so we can post the results to see if this product really works. It is still in review. I wanted to get Ben or someone else involved. I have the # to call the VP directly if anyone is interest.

Possibly chemgeek, or someone, would like to look at the patent and let us know what they think. I have no clue......

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%227,964,688+B2%22&OS=

Mike NJ

[Watermom]

Ok. It has been deleted.

[ PoolDoc note: I un-deleted the post, and then snipped the email excerpts ]

[PoolDoc]

I talked to David McLaren* (Periodic Products (website (http://www.periodicproducts.com/)), maker of Culator) today. Culator (website (http://www.culator.com/)) may be an useful product, but I can't tell and they don't have any verifiable external evidence that they are ready to share yet.


*David McLaren
VP, Marketing and Product Development,
Periodic Products
3864 SW 30th Avenue
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33312

They seem really nervous, and would like to be able to sell their product conventionally via pool stores and such. (The "snips" above are of some fairly innocuous emails from David to Lawrosa, that David got pretty agitated about.) But they have no experience with pools or the pool industry, and are having a hard time wrapping their minds around the fact that pool stores and chemical distributors aren't all excited about a product that -- if it works like Periodic thinks it will -- would eliminate a whole category of competing stain and metal products.

It also appears that the company right now consists of a handful of people -- maybe just David, a salesman, and his boss and the patent holder, Joseph Laurino. I would assume they are having a 3rd party manufacture the material "Chelok" or apparently "Poly-octadecylbutanedioate". Their address appears to be an office, and maybe a shipping, location here: (Google Map (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Periodic+Products,+3864+SW+30th+Avenue,+Hol lywood,+Florida&ll=26.074387,-80.180043&spn=0.000912,0.001175&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&fb=1&gl=us&cid=0,0,15813748000334705075&t=h&z=20)).

They also haven't thought through a number of practical aspects of how their material can be used.

Bottom line?

#1 - At present, they aren't ready to participate in any testing they don't control . . . and they don't feel like they can control pool owners.

#2 - There are some aspects of their use claims that don't seem to add up.
<Begin Geek-speak>Most reactions are often determined by molar values, not mass. But Culator's published metal uptake info is mass (parts per million, a weight to weight measure). This claim, of 0.8 ppm in 24,000 gallons of water, translates to 0.16 lbs or 2.6 oz of metal. Now that's weird, because in an ordinary reaction, if something will react with take up 2.6 oz of copper (atomic weight of 63.5) you'd expect it to take up 4.4 oz. of silver (atomic weight 107.9), or 1.4 ppm. When I asked David about this, he didn't seem to understand the question. I also spoke to my older son, who finds organic chemistry "fun", and he explained that there are multiple modes of binding between organic molecules and metals, and that ionic size can be the significant factor, rather than moles. But even so, it's not particularly likely that the "Culator" product package will neatly bind 2.6 oz of whatever noxious metal is present.

There's a further factor, that I had wondered about: most sequestrants, and also most "zeolites" tend to be pretty promiscuous about what metals they bind. Many react with sodum -- found in all pool waters, and most react with calcium, also found in most pool water. When one of these products is bound with sodium or calcium, transition metals in the solution may displace the sodium or calcium and become bound. Or, they may not. But it gets worse. Even with zeolites that take up transition metals in the presence of sodium or calcium, this uptake may reverse if the concentration of sodium or calcium is high enough.

And, there is no information about Culators performance in high sodium or high calcium pools. Probably, these levels are not high enough to be an issue, but with a "NOVEL" product - a patent claim term the Culator site repeats frequently - it's not possible to rule out that sort of interference. <End Geek-speak>

#3 - David indicated that they were testing test methods, and so far had found that pool tests for metals were unreliable. The only thing they trust is their very expensive lab instrument. I suspect they may be right about pool test methods for metals, but without an agreed upon measuring stick to use in the field, there is no way verify whether their product actually works.

So where does that leave things?

My guess is that the owner is very nervous that someone, somehow is going to take advantage of him. He seems to believe he owns a patent that's going to make him extremely wealthy, if only he can find a way to sell it without having one of the big companies take him down. I'm sure he's right that there are big companies that would happily take him down -- if his product actually works -- and would do so by any method, legal or illegal, that thought they could get away with.

But, I'm not sure he's right that his product is a practical tool for pool owners. It may be, but there's no real evidence of that so far. And, as I explained to David, the Culator website reminds me of many "Revolutionary New Pool Product, based on an Amazing Scientific Breakthrough" websites I've seen over the years. For example, here is a quote from the Periodic Products website:

We are continually applying smarter science to help solve the world's environmental issues. Our current focus is on a series of unique and versatile polymer compounds which:
Purify the world's water supply;
Bind heavy metal contaminates for removal or extraction;
Serve as a superior polycarbonate resin in the production of countless consumer products; and
Eliminate non-biodegradeable plastic waste. http://www.periodicproducts.com/vision.html
. . . to which I can only add, in teen-speak, "Feel grandiose much?"

It especially reminds me of the sanitizing catalyst claims made by Fountainhead (the people that originated the Nature2 product) years ago. There were several PhD's involved in Fountainhead, not just one, and several patents, not just one. But, Fountainhead's claims all turned out to be more or less bogus. So the only recommendation I can make is, "Wait and see." There's no available published evidence yet, and the history of the pool biz suggest you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for it.

If we're lucky, it will all pan out, and the pool biz will have a new, affordable and functional solution to metal problems. But unfortunately it appears more likely that it's just another Fountainhead!

[Lawrosa]

The "snips" above are of some fairly innocuous emails from David to Lawrosa, that David got pretty agitated about.

Gee... I had no clue. I only wondered if he wanted to test a real world pool and document the results...I did not know he was agitated. I only spoke of this site and said many people would be interested in thier product if it worked. I was hoping some samples would be offered so we can see if this stuff works.

Gee if it was my company I would of gave you (Ben) a couple of dozen to use so you can promote the product.

Heck, if I could throw a bag in my skimmer and all metals are removed I would buy for top $$$ it if it worked.

Thanks for calling him Ben. I guess he may not be e mailing me back then. I assume you did not get some samples either.....

[chem geek]

I ran into this product elsewhere and also had some contact with the company, read the patent, etc. The results so far have been mixed from the few people who have tried it. Unfortunately, for many they didn't have measurable metal ion levels to start with so it is hard to know if it works in such cases. There was a case that seemed to work, but we just don't have enough to be conclusive. So the jury is still out on this one. I had high hopes initially since there isn't much that actually removes metals from the water as opposed to sequestring them (except for Ben's "precipitate it into the filter at high pH" method). I have a bag still in my skimmer, but I've never measured metals though have a yellowing light stain that seems to only appear at higher pH so I figured it might be iron (I have rusting stainless steel mounts where my Trichlor floating feeder caused corrosion 7-8 years ago).

[mbar]

I have also decided to try culator. I have it in my skimmer now. I didn't have any staining, since I got rid of it. It usually returns sometime so I thought I would put it in to see if it keeps it away. If it just keeps it from restraining it wii be well worth the money since I won't have to put any more sequestering agent in the water. I will let you know.

[Lawrosa]

OK guys. I found the culator product on line for 19 bucks.

I may purchase but would like to know how to test my pool for the metals it says it removes. I have iron for sure because of my well situation. I know what my water has. It is treated but my iron is .7 ppm. I probably had breakthough of the softner when refilling my pool.

Do I just have a iron test done? Before and after? I guess The instruction would explain, but do I use a sequest agent first to get the iron to souluable form?

Since I am not a chemist I want to try and use my own pool for a test and let everone know the results. Just want to get some test parameters that may be somewhat accurate.

[PoolDoc]

David indicated that their testing showed that metal test strips did NOT work if a chelant or sequestrant was present. They had not yet tested drops based metal tests. But he said one of their frustrations was a lack of reliable testing to use to evaluate results.

[Lawrosa]

Anything I can do or try then? Otherwise it would be like when you change the oil and wash your car. You think it runs better.

[chem geek]

I asked the folks at Taylor Technologies whether their drop-based metal tests would measure total metals even when sequestrants were used and they thought it would, but I didn't get a warm/fuzzy feeling that they knew for certain.

[mbar]

Lawrosa, I have been trying to figure out how to test for, remove, control, or live with stains for about 11 years now. My conclusion is that every time I think I have it figured out, something else happens to make me wonder if the "stain gods" are just having a little more fun! What I really tried to do is figure out where the metals are really coming from. My well water does not show iron, but Jack's magic test showed the stains were iron. I do have a heater, so maybe they come from that. I just don't know. I also have three other friends that have the same pool, within different water sources and they all get stains too, so I have experimented with theirs too. The conclusion I came to is that I don't worry about where or how they get there anymore. Now I just get rid of them as they come, because no matter I still hate them with a vengence! My husband calls me "the stain nazi" You will figure out how to work your own pool water to keep your pool stain free. So, don't drive yourself crazy, but if you do please share your results with us, I love to learn about all the ways to get rid of stains, I add them to my "bag of tricks".

[Lawrosa]

Marie,

I know where my metals are from. The well. I have not had a problem with the pool until this yr with metals. But I have a shallow well and had some plant growth (Golden algae ) growing down there. How it grows without sunlight is beyond me. I e mailed everyone and no one knows what it is.

Anyway I think you posted that you tried the C U Lator. Is it working? Anything?

[mbar]

So far I have not seen any color change in the culator bag. It is supposed to turn colors for different metals, and comes with a chart to match the color to the metal. I did not have any stains in the pool, because I just finished removing them and balancing all my chemicals at the beginning of this swim season. I put the bag in to see if it does change color if I do start to precipitate metals, or if the pool stains. If I get any stains, then the culator does not work.

[rcy100]

I too have a CUlator in my skimmer basket. It's been just over a couple of weeks, and no change in colour. Why did I want to try it....??

I have a DuoClear system (pool built in 2007) and was running the Nature2 cartridge and suffering from brownish stains on my white skimmer and pump baskets and on the nozzles of my returns. Last fall I removed the bag from the mineral cartridge and reinstalled the cartridge without the bag (the DuoClear system needs a cartridge in place or it will leak everywhere). I then did an ascorbic acid treatment and removed the stains and added sequestrant. The pool ran for one additional month last fall and I opened in early April. The stains had not returned prior to the CUlator being used. My assumption was that the metals removed were in suspension from using sequestrant and I was hoping the CUlator would remove them completely, but to be honest, I don't even know if it can remove metals that are sequestered.

[mbar]

Just an update, I was away for a week, and had high amounts of chlorine in my water. So far no more stains, but the bag has not changed color either. I have not added anymore sequestering agent. So the jury is still out. I will let you know if the stains return.

[mbar]

Just wanted to update on the culator. I have not gotten any stains back since I have it in my skimmer. This is the longest I have gone without stains. I have not put any sequestering agent in since then either. So far for me it works. I have not had to really shock the pool, because the water has been clear all summer, so I don't know what will happen if I do. The ph has drifted up, and still no stains. My fingers are crossed - it will save a lot of money in the long run if this really works.

[waterbear]

Marie, did you ever try increasing your calcium hardness to plaster pool levels to see if it has any impact on the staining? I know we discussed this once before and I have seen this lower the tendency to stain in several fiberglass pools that had very low calcium, including my own. I have not used ascorbic acid or seqestrant in about 3 years now since I brought my calcium up to between 350-400 ppm from the 180 ppm or thereabout I was running it at (natural water hardness when the water softener is bybassed). Before I would need to deal with the staining about twice a year. Water in the pool is still the same.

[mbar]

Yes, I have increased my calcium levels to 250 to 300. It has really taken the staining way down. However when I put in the stain treatment I get a milky mess - but once the pool clears the stains stay mostly away. I noticed one year that my pool water was tinted green, when I added the calcium the water turned blue. THat is when I started to keep calcium up in my pool. This year after the stain treatment my calcium level went from 300 to 175. I then added calcium to bring it back to 250. Do you think that the fallout of the calcium combined with the metals to filter out of the water? This is what I was thinking happened and that is why it may not be the culator that has prevented the stains?

[waterbear]

We might be on to something. When I increased my calcium and did the stain remover/seqeustrant I also got a milky pool for about a day, which cleared on it's own. Perhaps we did actually filter out the metals but needed the higher calcium hardness to do it. I did not notice such a severy drop in calcium harndess from what I remember, however. All I know is that I have been keeping my calcium between 350 to 400 ppm which, with my TA at 70 and my salt and baorates, gives me a calcium saturation index close to 0 (well within the +/-.3 range, actually close to -.1). When I has a lot of staining problems it was on the negative side and in the neighborhood of -.6. Not sure what might be going on here but, like I said, I have not used seqeustrant or ascorbic acid for a few years now and pool is staying white!

[mbar]

I really do think it has something to do with calcium too. The first year I had staining, the pool store had me dump in lots of calcium. I did a stain treatment and ended up with a pool full of milk. Then they had me use a flocking agent - and turn the filter off for 2 days. After the water cleared up I did not have any stains for the rest of the year. The calcium did drop a lot if my memory serves me right. Then I went a couple of years without using calcium as I thought it was not necessary. I had a lot of staining at this time, and learned how to get rid of stains very well!!! Then l read where a fiberglass pool needs calcium to keep something (I am not good at any chemistry as you know) from leaching out of the gelcoat, maybe cobalt? So I started using some calcium. Last year, I know I posted it, my pool was all balanced, the water very clear, but there was a greenish tint to the water that I could not get rid of. I put enough calcium to get it up to 300, and right before my eyes the water turned blue! I had no idea why or how it happened. I didn't think it was a coincidence, because it was an immediate reaction to the calcium. I did notice that when I added bleach to the water, I could see the water cloud. I think I even asked you about it. Once the bleach was circulated the cloud dissipated. Now this year it happens again - but I have not had one stain since I treated the water at the start of the season. My pool has been holding chlorine, the ph raises with the bleach so I add a puck because I hate the muriatic acid. I have not used anything else in my water and my pool is white! I have a couple of bottles of sequestering agent and some ascorbic acid sitting on a shelf - I love it. I do have the culator in the skimmer basket too - so I don't know if it has anything to do with it. We'll see next year when I open. My pool always opens with no cya, and low ph. I try to add bleach under the cover when we have a couple of warm days, but basically I am starting from scratch every year. I live in the middle of the woods so my water gets full of so much stuff I don't know where the metals come from. I also have a well and a heater- that's why I gave up trying to figure out where they came from and just concentrated on getting rid of them. It would be so great to just have a milky pool at the beginning of the summer and once cleared up not to have stains! Maybe this is it???

[JimK]

I realize this thread hasn't been active for some time, but I stumbled across it when researching less expensive/better options to prevent metal stains (iron I believe) on my vinyl pool. For the past several seasons I've been using Jack's Magic Purple Stuff and I've not had any staining since. However, it costs me about $200 a season (per instructions I add 2qts at the beginning of the season, then 12oz a week to maintain the recommended level).

I'm intrigued by the idea that maintaining higher calcium levels may prevent staining. Any updates on this? Has it been determined that higher calcium works? Any downside to this method?

Any further information on whether or not the CuLator actually works?

For reference, I have a 20k IG vinyl salt water pool, DE filter, and using a SWCG.

Thanks.

[waterbear]

The higher calcium is for fiberglass pools. There is some empirical evidence that it helps lessen iron staining and cobalt spotting which fiberglass pools are prone to more so than other pool surfaces.

[PoolDoc]

I very much doubt that the calcium is directly preventing staining.

I suspect that what is happening is that you are creating fine calcium precipitates in the filter, which because of flow and surface area tend to get 'stained' BEFORE the pool does.

If my analysis is correct, this is directly related to the method I've mentioned of using cal hypo to remove metals from the water.

[JimK]

The higher calcium is for fiberglass pools. There is some empirical evidence that it helps lessen iron staining and cobalt spotting which fiberglass pools are prone to more so than other pool surfaces.


I very much doubt that the calcium is directly preventing staining.

I suspect that what is happening is that you are creating fine calcium precipitates in the filter, which because of flow and surface area tend to get 'stained' BEFORE the pool does.

If my analysis is correct, this is directly related to the method I've mentioned of using cal hypo to remove metals from the water.

Thanks.

[waterbear]

I very much doubt that the calcium is directly preventing staining.

I suspect that what is happening is that you are creating fine calcium precipitates in the filter, which because of flow and surface area tend to get 'stained' BEFORE the pool does.

If my analysis is correct, this is directly related to the method I've mentioned of using cal hypo to remove metals from the water.

IF that is the case then perhaps this is an easier way to achieve this. I know of others with fiberglass pools who have done this and had similar results. One thing that I did notice is that one time when I let the calcium hardness drop (I fill with softened water) I got stains again. My fill water has no iron (my city water is reverse osmosis where I live and very soft. They add calcium to bring the hardness up some and my house also has a water softener. I suspect the iron was introduces by "pool salt" since the first stains I every saw were in the spot the salt sat to dissolve.)

[PoolDoc]

Waterbear,

I don't see how having DISSOLVED calcium would help; maybe there's some sort of ionic effect that raises the staining threshold. If so maybe Chem_Geek has some info on that. But what I've pretty much confirmed is that if you make the water PASS THROUGH calcium particles, especially in a high oxidizing state (ie, cal hypo via the skimmer) you WILL stain the heck out of the goo on the filter.

Now, if you are precipitating calcium onto the filter, maybe THAT will help.

[chem geek]

I don't see where doubly positive calcium ions are going to help precipitate doubly charged positive copper or triply charged positive iron since these will repel each other. I think Ben's explanation is more likely since adding Cal-Hypo into pool water that is already close to saturated with calcium carbonate will cause both the CH and pH to go up substantially causing calcium carbonate to precipitate. The higher pH will cause the metal ions to form metal oxides-hydroxides so they'd all precipitate together into the filter.

In theory, just raising the pH should precipitate the metal, but perhaps it's normally super-saturated and needs something to help its precipitation, such as calcium carbonate. This is all just an educated guess, however.