Fighting Cloudy Water: 4 Weeks and Counting

[anixon7]

Hey all,

This is my second post, as I'm a new pool owner and new to the PoolForum, so I need lots of help.

My pool (20,000 gal.) was an absolute swampy mess when I opened it just over 4 weeks ago. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of calling a local pool company to help me open it (before I discovered the Forum) and got ripped off. Anyway, they put in 20lbs. of shock, which after 4 days, 3 more pounds of shock and 4 trichlor pucks, killed off the green and allowed me to at least kind of see the bottom. I also cleaned the majority of junk out of it.

Unfortunately, I had not received my Taylor test kit in the mail yet and had to go out of town for a week, so I left the pool completely unbalanced. And, of course, got home to another green mess. Since then, I have reshocked the pool and killed off the green, but the water is still completely cloudy. I have read a lot of info here and on the sister site, and have been learning the ropes of testing, but I need to now where to go from here.

Here are my recent results:

6-19-11 (6:00pm)

FC = 0
pH = < 7.0
TA = 20
CYA=0

Added 3lbs. Borax


6-20-11 (7:30pm)

FC = 1.0
pH = <7.0
TA = 10
CYA=0

Added 3lbs. In the Swim super shock (73% CaHypo) + 2 trichlor pucks in skimmer + 4lbs. CYA (@ 7:00pm)


6-21-11 (7:30am)

FC = 10.5
pH = <7.0
TA = 20
CYA=<30

[No change in water cloudiness]


Pool Stats: 20,000 gal., vinyl liner, Hayward S200 sand filter, broken heater

Please help!
Thanks,
Andrew

[aylad]

Hi, and let me thank you up front for supporting the site with your subscription!!

I see a couple of things you need to fix...
First off, a pH less than 7.0 is acidic and can damage your liner. If 7.0 is the lowest your kit registers, there's no way to know just how much lower it actually is, so you need to be adding Borax and retesting until you get a pH above 7.0. Granted, pH reads falsely high when chlorine levels are high, but that just means your pH is lower than you actually think it is. Add Borax, give a couple of hours to circulate, retest, and add more until you at least get a reading higher than 7.0.

Second, you're using Cal-hypo to chlorinate, but you don't list a hardness level. If it's too high, your cloudiness can be coming from calcium. Run a test for that and see where it is.

Third, what size pump do you use with your filter, and do you see particles blowing back into the pool? Is your pressure gauge indicating a pressure rise as you're filtering? How often are you backwashing it? Have you backwashed it since you added the stabilizer?

When you kill off an algae bloom, the chlorine will kill the algae, but it takes filtration to remove it from the water. There can be a huge amount that needs to be filtered, and if your filter isn't working properly, or is overdriven by your pump, that can severely hamper the filter's ability to clear out the dead algae. Sometimes it's just trial and error to see what's wrong, but if you can post answers to the above questions, we'll try to help you get it figured out.

Janet

[psciotti]

Andrew - I am by no means an expert and have only learned in the last few days what low PH, a broken heater, and a vinyl liner can do to your pool. If you look about 9 posts down on this main forum - "Major Chemistry Problem..." you can see all the issues I had.

[anixon7]

psciotti-Man! Sorry you had such a nightmare. I haven't even made it all the way thru your thread yet, but hope you got it worked out. I am 99% sure my heater is shut off, but I'm going to check to make 100% sure it's being bypassed.

[psciotti]

It's amazing the stuff you learn to pay attention to only when trouble happens. Anyway - I'm almost home thanks to the great people on this forum. Check out the BBB method and avoid all the other stuff... I am a true convert after my issue.

[anixon7]

Thanks for the reply Janet.

Sorry for the delayed response. We've had a lot of rain so it's been tough to tend to the pool.

Good news is I can see the bottom!! At least in the shallow ... and partially in the deep. Also, Ca Hardness is within acceptable range: 130ppm on 6/21 and 150ppm as of 7:00 tonite. Bad news is it seems to be rising. Here are the rest of my readings from the last couple of days:

FC: dropped from 10.5 on 6/21 to 4 tonite.
pH: still too low, but rising. Added 1.5 boxes Borax in the last 24 hrs.
TA: holding steady @ 20
CYA: gone from no reading to 40 as of this AM

Here are the answers to your other questions.

-Pump: Based on the label I can read, A.O Smith Century Centurion 230V / 6amp.
-No particles blowing back into the pool
-Pressure gauge is completely shot. I've ordered a new one that will hopefully be here soon.
-I have backwashed a lot because of the algae and it seemed to help the leak on the top of my filter. Initially once a day, but now maybe twice a week.

The sand probably needs replacing since it's 10+ years old, but I really don't want to have to undertake that right now if at all possible to avoid.

So, what should be my next steps? Keep getting the pH up obviously, but should I focus on the TA? Should I add a puck to the skimmer since the chlorine's dropping? Oh, also, I spread the stabilizer directly into the deep end, and it looks like a bunch is still just sitting on the bottom. Guess I should've diluted, but nothing about that on the package label. Thoughts?

As always, thanks for the help.
Andrew

[Watermom]

I'm not Janet, but maybe I'll do! (She is working this evening and it may be tomorrow til she is able to answer, so thought I'd take a crack at it for you.)

If your CYA is at 40 but you still have undissolved stabilizer in the pool, that means that your CYA level is going to go up higher than 40. Therefore, you don't want to use any forms of stabilized chlorine which means no pucks. They are stabilized and will cause your CYA to continue to rise. You also don't want that CYA laying on your liner. Vacuum it up into the filter. Since your CYA is at 40 which is a good level, I'd go ahead and backwash it out.

Since your calcium hardness level is ok you can use cal-hypo for awhile if you want but if it were me, I'd just use bleach. Bleach will never contribute to cloudy water problems.

Did you order a test kit? If not, I'd recommend that you do so. While your water is cloudy, I'd suggest raising your cl up to shock level which would be about 15ppm. In a 20K pool, each gallon (4 quarts) of 6% bleach will add 3ppm of chlorine. Every time you test which should be at least morning and evening for now, add enough bleach to get the cl back up to 15. You need to keep it at shock level until you can go from sundown one evening to sunup the next morning without losing more than 1ppm of chlorine, and you have no more than 0.5ppm of CC (combined chlorine.) Do you have a CC reading by the way? If so, post it. We really need to see it.

Since your pressure gauge hasn't come in yet, you'll have to just judge when to backwash by the pressure of the water coming out of the return. When you feel a substantial decrease in pressure, backwash. Run the pump 24/7 while you are trying to clear the pool.

Not necessary to change out the sand.

Keep working on the pH. You don't have to wait too long between additions of Borax. After adding some, wait a couple of hours, retest and redose. You need to get it above 7.0 ASAP.

Your alk is also low. Add some baking soda to the skimmer to raise it. I'd start with about 3 lbs. at a time. As with the Borax, retest after a few hours and redose until you get somewhere between 80-120. By the way, it is ok to add baking soda, borax and bleach one right after the other.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted how things are going.

[anixon7]

I do have a test kit: Taylor K-2006.

As for the chlorine, my issue is that I already bought $80 worth of pucks before I found this forum and started learning about the BBB method. That's a lot of money that I can't afford to waste. So, do you have a recommendation as to how I can incorporate all that stabilized chlorine? Start using them again once my CYA is steady? Do I need to use bleach in the short term until the CYA is steady?

I'll pick up some baking soda tonite to work on the TA.

Update you tonite/tomorrow.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Watermom]

Unlike chlorine or pH which have to continuously be added and adjusted throughout the summer, once you get CYA in your pool, it lasts. Some people's pools even keep the CYA throughout the winter; others don't and lose it and have to add CYA again the next year.

Bottom line is that if you continue to use the pucks this summer, your CYA is going to continue to go higher and higher and higher As a result, you're going to have to keep your chlorine levels at higher and higher levels or you'll get algae. (Take a look at the Best Guess table in my signature below if you haven't already done so.)

You can keep trichlor tabs from one season to the next. Keep them tightly closed in the original container in a cool place and then if you need to add CYA another year, you'll have them.

Glad to hear you have the kit. That will make things easier for you.

Hope this helps you.

[anixon7]

Ok, so here's the latest.

6-24-11 (7:30am)

FC = 2.0
CC = .5
pH = 7.4 (woohoo!)
TA = 20
CYA = 35–40

6-24-11 (7:30pm)

Added 4.5 gallons of bleach and 3 lbs of baking soda.
Didn't get to test last night. Long story.

6-25-11 (7:30am)

FC = 11.5
CC = N/A (forgot to test)
pH = 7.6–7.8 (boo)
TA = 60

So, some good news. Not sure why the pH went up so much, because I haven't added any Borax in over 36hrs. Should I add some pH reducer or just let it ride for now? I'm going to add some more baking soda today. Any reason why I can't add it now if it's overcast because I have to be gone from the house this evening?

Thanks,
-A

[Watermom]

Go ahead and add the baking soda. Being overcast doesn't make any difference. Just let the pH ride for now. 7.6-7.8 is fine. If it goes over 7.8, you'll want to lower it some though. Your pH will become more stable once you get your TA up some.

[anixon7]

Well, it's been a couple of days and things are looking up finally. I can actually see the bottom of the deep end for the first time!! Water is still cloudy, but levels are starting to even out.

I'm in full-on BBB mode, making the switch to bleach for chlorination over the weekend.

My biggest problem is I still can't maintain a steady FC level. It went from 14.5 down to 9 in 24hrs. I added 1.5gal of bleach to get it back up tonite. My CC is steady at 0.

pH jumped up to 7.8 last nite, but I let it ride and was back down to 7.4 tonite. Do you think it might have been a false high read because chlorine levels were so high? Hope it stays in the good zone overnite.

TA is steady at 90. Should I raise it up closer to 100 or leave it? Thinking maybe raising it would help steady the pH.

I also have A TON of tiny particles of sediment too fine to catch in the skimmer net from all the months of neglect. I would assume this is contributing to the cloudy water. Any way to speed up the process of getting those cleaned out or do I just have to be patient and let the filter do its thing?


And, last thing to note based on comments earlier last week about a broken heater causing water problems. My water is in fact running thru the broken heater right now. One of my bypass valves froze and cracked over the winter, so I actually had to rig the pvc piping to go around the cracked valve; much cheaper than buying a new valve. But, I am thinking maybe I should re-reroute the piping to bypass the heater all together just to be safe. Any thoughts on this? Could it be contributing to the cloudy water?

Thanks,
-A

[Watermom]

Glad things are improving. Be consistent with maintaining high cl levels while the water is cloudy. Are you testing your pH while the chlorine is high? That will give false high pH. With the Taylor K-2006, you can test pH if the chlorine is lower than 15 which is higher than most kits will allow. I wouldn't worry about raising alk any right now.

You can try a little trick that some of us use to help our sand filters filter a little more efficiently. Adding a little DE will help you filter out smaller particles than your sand can get by itself. Read more about it here:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3742

I can't help with the heater issue. Somebody else will hopefully chime in about that.

Hope this helps.

[anixon7]

So things are still overall doing well. Pool is staying clear. Still a little cloudiness in the deep end, but I can clearly see the bottom of the entire pool and it's a nice blue color.

pH is holding steady @ 7.4 and TA @ 80-90. My problem continues to be Cl levels. I can't hold a steady reading. I've been trying to keep it above 10ppm (using bleach only) until the water is definitely cleared up, but it's been dropping as much as 3ppm in a 24hr period. It did only drop 1ppm from sundown last nite to sunup today: 8.5 - 7.5, which seems like a positive sign. I checked my CYA this AM again just to be sure, and it's still @ 30-40ppm. Any idea why I can't hold Cl levels when everything else is stable? Is there something else I need to do?

My next question: I want to try to swim in it this weekend for the 4th. Am I ok to let the Cl levels drop into the 3-6ppm range for swimming and just monitor it closely, or do I need to maintain shock levels still?

Thanks as always,
-A

[Watermom]

You aren't going to be able to keep cl at an exact level in a pool. Not expected. Losing 3ppm in 24 hours is totally normal. You're not going to keep a steady cl level unless you are adding chlorine frequently through the day. I take my cl up to about 6 in the evenings, (my CYA is about 30 right now) and by the next evening, I'm down to about 3 or so.

Have you checked the CC reading lately? If you have no more than 0.5ppm of CC and are losing no more than 1ppm of cl overnight, then go ahead and let the cl drift down but don't let it get below your range based on your CYA level. But, continue running the pump 24/7 to try and let the filter clear it up. And, be careful with swimmers in cloudy water -- especially in a deep end. Make sure you are watching closely! Then, if needed, you can raise the cl levels back up after the weekend.

[anixon7]

Thanks Watermom.

CC has been holding steady @ 0 -.5 for the last week. I'll go ahead and let it drop and start the regimen of maintaining the 3-6ppm range like you said above.

And, be careful with swimmers in cloudy water -- especially in a deep end.

Did you mean this in terms of making sure I can see them and know that they are safe? If so, that is no problem. The water is completely clear enough for good visibility and safety.

[aylad]

And, be careful with swimmers in cloudy water -- especially in a deep end.

Did you mean this in terms of making sure I can see them and know that they are safe?

Yes, that's what Watermom meant--in very cloudy water it's hard to tell sometimes if somebody's in trouble. If you can see them clearly, that's great!!

Janet

[anixon7]

Pool's finally open!!!! Thanks so much to the Forum, especially Watermom and Janet, for helping me get here. You rock!

Check out the before and after pics. Hopefully they attached ok.

-A

[Watermom]

Looks beautiful! Congrats. Now, time for less work and more play. Enjoy the pool and you are very welcome!

[aylad]

The pool looks fantastic. Now...be diligent about spending a few minutes testing everyday, keep your chlorine where it needs to be, and enjoy the rest of your swimming season!